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Old
11-25-2008, 01:59 PM
  #76
claude boivin lives
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Originally Posted by DesertDog View Post
value wise, this proposal looks ok..As I said before in the previous post, your right, I did not address the needs and whys.
I think it's ashame that you still think the proposal is fine value-wise...but I've said enough in this thread.

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Old
11-25-2008, 02:03 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by DesertDog View Post
Which is perfectly fine, I apologize I didnt do a background check on all players involved. From the looks of it, value wise was key in the proposal. Like I said it was my first one, I appreciate your response, thus helps someone learn when an explanation is clear, much better than a one line response. See my point?

and...thank you, if I ever do another one, I will be sure to do more research..
No apology necessary. We just get used to seeing so many proposals that don't make sense, and we get irritated. It gets tiring explaining it all the time, hence the one-liners. Nothing personal against you, so my apologies for coming off that way.

Value-wise, the package is not ludicrous at all, as most on this board are, so in that sense there isn't much wrong with it. But value doesn't operate in a vacuum. Age and team needs affect value of the players involved. It just really doesn't fit for the Flyers on so many levels, and quite honestly, it likely floods Phoenix with too many centers.

BTW, I'm not trying to bash Doan or Mueller in any way. I think they're both great players, and if they filled needs for us, would be glad to have them in Philly

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Old
11-25-2008, 02:09 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by ShadowFlyer View Post
No apology necessary. We just get used to seeing so many proposals that don't make sense, and we get irritated. It gets tiring explaining it all the time, hence the one-liners. Nothing personal against you, so my apologies for coming off that way.

Value-wise, the package is not ludicrous at all, as most on this board are, so in that sense there isn't much wrong with it. But value doesn't operate in a vacuum. Age and team needs affect value of the players involved. It just really doesn't fit for the Flyers on so many levels, and quite honestly, it likely floods Phoenix with too many centers.

BTW, I'm not trying to bash Doan or Mueller in any way. I think they're both great players, and if they filled needs for us, would be glad to have them in Philly

Which is understandable, I too have seen some off the wallers myself.

Good to see someone actually knows how to communicate on this site, again, thanks for the response, next time around it will be a lot different.

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Old
11-25-2008, 02:15 PM
  #79
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I'd go on a tirade about how terrible this is, but it would be a waste of my time. Since for some unknown reason this needs to be explained to you...

1. Richards just signed a 12 year contract
2. Richards is our captain and the heart and soul of the Flyers
3. Carter just signed an extension
4. Carter is tearing up the league right now
5. Richards > Doan
6. Carter > Mueller

That explain enough or do I need to explain further?

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Old
11-25-2008, 02:26 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by BiLLY_ShOE1721 View Post
I'd go on a tirade about how terrible this is, but it would be a waste of my time. Since for some unknown reason this needs to be explained to you...

1. Richards just signed a 12 year contract
2. Richards is our captain and the heart and soul of the Flyers
3. Carter just signed an extension
4. Carter is tearing up the league right now
5. Richards > Doan
6. Carter > Mueller

That explain enough or do I need to explain further?
Points 1-4 make sense. Now just replace 5. and 6. with these and I'm with you completely.

5. Richards is young with nowhere to go but up.
6. Coyotes need their current wingers, Flyers need their current centers.

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Old
11-25-2008, 02:29 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DesertDog View Post

Philly a work horse in Doan and a young up in comer in Mueller.

Thoughts?
Flyers have workhorses in Carter AND Richards. Flyers also have up and comers in Carter AND Richards.

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Old
11-25-2008, 02:30 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by AY View Post
6. Coyotes need their current wingers, Flyers need their current centers.
The Flyers definitely don't need to sign or trade for any wingers soon with James Van Riemsdyk and Claude Giroux looming in the shadows. Patrick Maroon might also prove to be NHL material.

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Old
11-25-2008, 02:35 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
Richards is close but Doan still is the better player.
Interesting, because Doan finished last season with 78 points in 80 games while Richards had 75 in 73 games. Can't use the defensive argument either because Richards is as good if not better then Doan at a younger age, and is also a center which bears more defensive responsibility then a winger. Richards is 23 Doan is 32 so at best they are even, in my Opinion Richards is much better and certainly holds a lot more trade value then Shane Doan.

As for Carter and Mueller, Carter is certainly the better player right now and his Ceiling is just as high as Mueller's.

As for the OP people are mocking you because the Flyers would never trade Richards, they just signed him to a 12 year contract and Carter is pretty close to untradeable as well.

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Old
11-25-2008, 02:54 PM
  #84
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Flyers get robbed.

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Old
11-25-2008, 03:59 PM
  #85
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ive just spent the last 15 mins reading all the posts and i really dont know what to say.
no matter what comes in return. losing richie and carts would be open heart surgery in a garage to the flyers fanbase.

the only trade possible for our two stars would be with Pitts. an Wash. self explanatory why those will never happen.

i think ill be in a different world all night thinking about this proposal.

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Old
11-26-2008, 10:41 AM
  #86
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this wouldn't happen
but i'm curious why everone thinks Philly wins this trade?
I really wonder what you guys are going to think when Mueller blossoms, he is very underrated on these boards. And Doan, one of the best two way players in the game, is being criticized as well...
wow
is it just me or are all Philly fans this ignorant?
I have plenty of respect for Richards and Carter and could not see them coming here in that deal, but I could not see Doan and Mueller going to the Flyers for anything less than them.

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Old
11-26-2008, 10:47 AM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wabbit3119 View Post
this wouldn't happen
but i'm curious why everone thinks Philly wins this trade?
I really wonder what you guys are going to think when Mueller blossoms, he is very underrated on these boards. And Doan, one of the best two way players in the game, is being criticized as well...
wow
is it just me or are all Philly fans this ignorant?
I have plenty of respect for Richards and Carter and could not see them coming here in that deal, but I could not see Doan and Mueller going to the Flyers for anything less than them.
talent wise, it's relatively even, but trade value is massively tipped towards the flyers assets. richards and doan are comparable statistically and characteristically, but richards is almost 10 years younger and signed for 12 seasons. doan is approaching the tail end of his career. carter and mueller are tougher to call since they're both young and have had similar numbers. however, carter today is leading the league in goals, which is definitely inflates value, for better or for worse.

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Old
11-26-2008, 10:50 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by LEIFey View Post
talent wise, it's relatively even, but trade value is massively tipped towards the flyers assets. richards and doan are comparable statistically and characteristically, but richards is almost 10 years younger and signed for 12 seasons. doan is approaching the tail end of his career. carter and mueller are tougher to call since they're both young and have had similar numbers. however, carter today is leading the league in goals, which is definitely inflates value, for better or for worse.
well my main concern is why everyone bashes on Doan and Money....doesn't make sense to me

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Old
11-26-2008, 10:54 AM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wabbit3119 View Post
well my main concern is why everyone bashes on Doan and Money....doesn't make sense to me
meh, people can bash anything and everything. sometimes you need to roll with it, and not judge an entire fan base by the beliefs of a few.

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Old
11-26-2008, 10:56 AM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wabbit3119 View Post
this wouldn't happen
but i'm curious why everone thinks Philly wins this trade?
I really wonder what you guys are going to think when Mueller blossoms, he is very underrated on these boards. And Doan, one of the best two way players in the game, is being criticized as well...
wow
is it just me or are all Philly fans this ignorant?
I have plenty of respect for Richards and Carter and could not see them coming here in that deal, but I could not see Doan and Mueller going to the Flyers for anything less than them.
I stopped reading right there. Richards is a better two-way player than Doan, especially at this point in his career. As of right now, I'll take Carter's current dominance over Mueller's ceiling, which I don't even think is as high as Carter's.

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Old
11-26-2008, 11:04 AM
  #91
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The funny thing is, both PHX and PHI fans will bash this because they each think THEY'RE the team getting ripped off.

From an unbiased fan, the trade value is fair.

Richards and Carter are both good players right now, but Mueller will be better than both of them. Doan is also the best player right now.

PHX gets two good players right now.
PHI gets a great player right now and a player who will eventually be better than all of them.

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Old
11-26-2008, 11:32 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by DesertDog View Post
Its called a proposal, pal. No need to take things on a forum so serious It was merley just something I thought about after watching the philly - phoenix game.

I see you wasted more time trying to be funny, than state an opinion, which doesnt suprise me.
dees is de HFBoards, jou vill have no fun of any kind...and jou vill like it!

Doan is extremely underrated on the east coast but with that said he still doesn't get the flyers much closer to a cup then what richards brings to the table...plus richards is younger.

carter is becoming a proven commodity and is only in his 4th year so it wouldn't make a lot of sense to move him for a player with a lot of potential but still not proven.

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Old
11-26-2008, 11:33 AM
  #93
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Maybe on NHL game, not in real life.

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Old
11-26-2008, 12:04 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Redlighting View Post
The funny thing is, both PHX and PHI fans will bash this because they each think THEY'RE the team getting ripped off.

From an unbiased fan, the trade value is fair.

Richards and Carter are both good players right now, but Mueller will be better than both of them. Doan is also the best player right now.

PHX gets two good players right now.
PHI gets a great player right now and a player who will eventually be better than all of them.
I'm a Phoenix fan and I think, value-wise it's lopsided in our favor. Mike Richards is already near Doan's level, and will likely improve at least somewhat. He's paid just a million a year more than Doan, but is tied up for the next decade. Doan's contract will expire in three years, and he'll be the same age at that point(35 years, or so, old) as Richards will be when his current contract expires.

Jeff Carter is better now than Mueller is, and likely will continue to be better throughout their careers. Mueller will probably score at a similar or higher rate, but Carter will always be more important to his team. Mueller is strictly a sniper, who also has some pretty damn good playmaking ability. He is a creative and supremely talented offensive winger. That's it, though. He's one-dimmensional. I expect he'll end up something like a much more productive, more consistant, much more entertaining Joffrey Lupul. Carter, on the other hand, is a center, who plays well defensively as well as offensively, and can kill penalties as well as play with the man-advantage. If can manage to do all of that while still putting up somewhat similar goal totals as Mueller from season to season, he'll be the more valuable player. Of course, Mueller has the potential to take his offensive game to a whole other level, it's just that I'm not sure he will. Time will tell, but at this point, Carter looks like he'll end up the more valuable player. This part of the proposal is less lop-sided for sure.

Regardless of value, this deal just doesn't make sense from either side. Obviously there is no way the Flyers would even consider it. Not only are they giving up more value, but they get older, and trade their team captain that they just signed for more than the next decade. It would be beyond ridiculous for them to trade him now. They'd be a laughing stock. Besides, they have more than enough depth on the wings. This trade, though, would leave them mighty shaloow at center.

Regardless, it's not like Phoenix would pull the trigger, either. Both Richards and Carter are centers. We've already got Jokinen for the short term, and Turris and Hanzal over the long term. I expect Turris will be an excellent first line center in a few years, while Hanzal will be an extremely solid, extremely valuable second line center(he is amazing defensively and has big time offensive upside). So that makes Mike Richards an extremely expensive second liner, and both Carter and Hanzal extremely underused and underappreciated. Also, Doan and Mueller are our best wingers. Beyond that we have Boedker who will likely be a first line winger, sooner than later. After him, though, it gets a lot more tricky. The likes of Lisin, Porter, Carcillo, and Tikhonov look like they'll be pretty good, but likely not first line good. The same goes for MacLean. We need Doan and Mueller more than we need Richards and Carter, regardless of who are the better players or which have more trade value.

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Old
11-26-2008, 12:16 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Redlighting View Post
PHX gets two good players right now.
PHI gets a great player right now and a player who will eventually be better than all of them.
In what universe is Shane Doan a great player? He has bested 70 points once in his career. One time over 70 points and he's been in the league since 95-96.

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Old
11-26-2008, 12:17 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Bonkers View Post
In what universe is Shane Doan a great player? He has bested 70 points once in his career. One time over 70 points and he's been in the league since 95-96.
You can't be a great player unless you score a certain amount of points? What kind of logic is that?

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Old
11-26-2008, 12:23 PM
  #97
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You can't be a great player unless you score a certain amount of points? What kind of logic is that?
Great players end up in the HHOF, Shane Doan will not.

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Old
11-26-2008, 01:20 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by LEIFey View Post
talent wise, it's relatively even, but trade value is massively tipped towards the flyers assets. richards and doan are comparable statistically and characteristically, but richards is almost 10 years younger and signed for 12 seasons. doan is approaching the tail end of his career. carter and mueller are tougher to call since they're both young and have had similar numbers. however, carter today is leading the league in goals, which is definitely inflates value, for better or for worse.
also, while richards is known as the gritty defensive center it's actually carter that goes head to head with the other teams top center on most nights...plus, if you are going to go head to head with the pens for the next 10 yrs you need a center that is just as big and physically gifted as malkin.

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Old
11-26-2008, 04:00 PM
  #99
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In what universe is Shane Doan a great player? He has bested 70 points once in his career. One time over 70 points and he's been in the league since 95-96.
Just for fun, watch a game or two.

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Old
11-26-2008, 04:26 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by Rebel Banker View Post
also, while richards is known as the gritty defensive center it's actually carter that goes head to head with the other teams top center on most nights...plus, if you are going to go head to head with the pens for the next 10 yrs you need a center that is just as big and physically gifted as malkin.
you need two. one to match against malkin and one to match against crosby. that's why neither richards or carter are going anywhere.

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