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11-30-2008, 12:51 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by JXC View Post
There's nothing wrong with that at all.
Nope, definitely not. Sbisa's plateaued, Alberts is terrible no matter what people say or how many games we win.

Some structure would help because Coburn is doing dumb things, Carle has no clue where he's going out there, and the breakouts in general look absolutely dreadful. But in terms of personnel, I think Jones and Parent (once he gets his game in shape) are better than Sbisa and Alberts as a 3rd pairing.

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11-30-2008, 07:56 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Dig Out Your Soul View Post
Nope, definitely not. Sbisa's plateaued, Alberts is terrible no matter what people say or how many games we win.

Some structure would help because Coburn is doing dumb things, Carle has no clue where he's going out there, and the breakouts in general look absolutely dreadful. But in terms of personnel, I think Jones and Parent (once he gets his game in shape) are better than Sbisa and Alberts as a 3rd pairing.
Heh, I don't think it is as bad as all that. Together they don't look like a Cup calibre defense, but maybe they don't need to with what weapons they have up front.

It seems to me that the big problem at this point is Coburn. He looked last year like someone who could become a "shut down" first pairing guy in a year or two, but he has taken a sizable step back. He looks a lot like Joni Pitkanen to me with the unwise penalties, headlong rushes, weak clears, and general inattention to detail in his own end.

I suspect that when Jones and Parent are ready to join the lineup, the Flyers will pair Coburn with Timonen again, and see if they can squeeze a legitimate second pairing out of what's left.

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11-30-2008, 10:48 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by JXC View Post
Heh, I don't think it is as bad as all that. Together they don't look like a Cup calibre defense, but maybe they don't need to with what weapons they have up front.

It seems to me that the big problem at this point is Coburn. He looked last year like someone who could become a "shut down" first pairing guy in a year or two, but he has taken a sizable step back. He looks a lot like Joni Pitkanen to me with the unwise penalties, headlong rushes, weak clears, and general inattention to detail in his own end.

I suspect that when Jones and Parent are ready to join the lineup, the Flyers will pair Coburn with Timonen again, and see if they can squeeze a legitimate second pairing out of what's left.
That all makes sense. Coburn plays his best with Timonen. For all intents and purposes, he was a rookie last year, so hopefully this is just his sophomore slump. He was talking about taking on more of a leadership role during pre-season, so perhaps he's trying to do too much. We have enough leaders.

I think Carle and Vaananen are a pretty solid 2nd pairing. It's meant as no sleight to your boy either, simply because Carle plays a ton of minutes but he needs that stay at home guy beside him. He roams a hell of a lot, but I wish they would pull him in a bit.

Jones and Parent would be the same idea. Jonesy takes off with the puck in the offensive zone at times so it's good to have the other guy back. We know Parent will never leave his post. I can see Alberts playing that position if Parent is sent down, but really, he's a turnstyle back there. Parent is a better one on one defender and has better speed.

So where does Sbisa fit? He's already a nightmare in his own zone and is overmatched physically. You send down Parent (what a punch in the balls to him), then what?

And the other question is, what is going on with Kukkonen? We waived him, but he's still here. What will happen when we have two more healthy defensemen?

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11-30-2008, 01:34 PM
  #54
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Ok, lets keep in mind we are talking about the Flyers organization here and even though Homer is now the GM in place of Clarke, Homer was raised under this "family" umbrella. Homer has begun extension talks with Biron and Knuble. Knuble has already stated that he loves it here and sees no need to move his family again for his career. He is part of the family. The Flyers take care of their family. Knuble isn't going to be dealt and he's going to get an extension, likely a 2 year deal for close to the same money.

Biron, may not be considered "family" yet by the organization but he's the best goalie within our reach and we will do everything possible to re-sign him to a reasonable contract. Probably somewhere areound 3.5-4.5 mil for 2 years.

Hartnell won't be traded because we'd have to replace him with a similar player probably at a higher cost. Carter and Richards are the future and will be here for a long time, this has been known by te top brass since the day they were drafted.

I can't figure it out for the life of me but the organization seems to be determined to stand by Jones and take care of him like family just like they did with Bundy. I really don't see Jones getting moved unless he decides to price himself out of our price range once he's due a new contract.

One of Carle, Coburn or Parent MAY get moved in the next 2 years if they decide to stand by Jones. I'd hate to see it happen but I just think that one of them is more likely to get moved than Jones <shoots self in head over this>


Lupul and Upshall aren't considered "family" yet and we have replacements on the way. Right now Upshall doesn't make enough to give us any significant cap gain so IMO it's pretty much a forgone conclusion that Lupul is on the way out. Seeing how we can't be taking on salary in return (we need to clear up cap space for Jones once he returns) I think he'll be dealt for picks and prospects.

Remember, this is the Flyers organization we are talking about, certain guys that are considered "family" just won't get dealt. Stop even discussing Knuble like that's a realistic option. Though it might fit for what would be "ideally" in the best interest of the team, there's virtually zero chance of that happening.
i fear the same fear, and i think it will be a huge mistake, if that happens; thats also a key reason why i keep saying trade Jones while he is on a conditioning assignment with the Phantoms (i think you can do that, since he is off IR, at that point).... I also think Alberts is a good third pairing defensive defenseman, who brings some size to the Flyers defensive core, at a salary much more in line with that of a third paring d-man, unlike Jones and his salary.... I do not think Jones is better than Corbun and Carle, and i have faith that Parent will become a better defenseman than Jones.... the best thing (in my view) the Flyers can do is to trade Jones once he's off IR and while he's on a re-conditioning stint with the Phantoms...

the good news: : i traded Parent and Grioux in NHL 09 for Jay Bouwmeester and the Panthers accepted the trade!





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11-30-2008, 01:37 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by JXC View Post
There's nothing wrong with that at all.
that is a huge overpayment for a 3rd pairing d-man.....

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11-30-2008, 01:47 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Dig Out Your Soul View Post
Nope, definitely not. Sbisa's plateaued, Alberts is terrible no matter what people say or how many games we win.

Some structure would help because Coburn is doing dumb things, Carle has no clue where he's going out there, and the breakouts in general look absolutely dreadful. But in terms of personnel, I think Jones and Parent (once he gets his game in shape) are better than Sbisa and Alberts as a 3rd pairing.
Alberts hasnt played any worse than any of our other d-men; in fact, he is a plus 5, which leads all our defenseman; he was a plus 1 last night in a losing cause against the Leafs.... he adds size to our blueline, and paired with a good puck-moving skating defenseman, he is the perfect 3rd pairing d-man on this team, imo.... Jones's salary is too high for a 3rd pairing d-man, and he is not better than the players we currently have on our 2nd d-pairing; it makes no sense to me why the Flyers would protect him like family, when he no longer fits within it, jmho.....

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11-30-2008, 01:52 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
Well, as I understand it. Jones has a cap hit of 2.75 mil, even being on LTIR his salary counts against our cap space. However, he has been on LTIR for 22 games and as such re get cap relief for 21 of those games. His per game cost is about 33.5k so we get to exceed the cap limit by about 700k at this point. That basically means that our cap limit goes up by that amount at the end of the season. You are right in that right now Jones' contract is sort of on hold (ie - it CAN'T put us over the limit and is sort of in limbo) but that once he comes back his full salary is added to our cap hit. But remember, as soon as his full salary is added back in, we get the full cap relief from him being on LTIR.
Keep in mind for the future. Games played has nothing to do with Cap Accounting. It's done by days of the Season. The Cap is calculated daily, not by games. There is 186 days in this NHL Season. Number of games has nothing to do with it.

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11-30-2008, 01:53 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by smacklby View Post

the good news: : i traded Parent and Grioux in NHL 09 for Jay Bouwmeester and the Panthers accepted the trade!
BTW: i do not recommend NHL 09 PC, since they have done away with the online matchup lobby; it is a real disappointment, imo....

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11-30-2008, 09:13 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Dig Out Your Soul View Post
That all makes sense. Coburn plays his best with Timonen. For all intents and purposes, he was a rookie last year, so hopefully this is just his sophomore slump.
.
.
.
I think Carle and Vaananen are a pretty solid 2nd pairing. It's meant as no sleight to your boy either, simply because Carle plays a ton of minutes but he needs that stay at home guy beside him.
.
.
.
Jones and Parent would be the same idea. Jonesy takes off with the puck in the offensive zone at times so it's good to have the other guy back. We know Parent will never leave his post.
Dig it , dude. That looks like a good setup to me.

And yep on Coburn, sometimes as I watch and he makes a bad play I think "boy that's a bad play" but then I recall his age and experience.

NHL games played
Carle 174
Coburn 159
Timonen 676
Vaananen 446
Jones 170
Parent 23

We may just have to live with going to playoffs this year with a young corps which means mistakes and elevated blood pressure while watching... Of course the wildcard is the trade but I think only Parent is real trade bait on that list.

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11-30-2008, 09:19 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by smacklby View Post
that is a huge overpayment for a 3rd pairing d-man.....
I agree, if the third pairing skates 13 minutes a night... Right now Timonen is over 25 mins a night and Carle and Coburn are right behind him. That's a lot of minutes over a looooonnnng grind, esp for a little guy like Timonen.

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12-01-2008, 09:54 AM
  #61
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Article in today's Philadelphia Inquirer:
Quote:
http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/...decisions.html

Sbisa had been on the second pairing, but with the recent acquisition of Matt Carle from Tampa Bay, he has moved to the third pairing with Andrew Alberts.

"He's a big part of our lineup right now, and I don't see that changing anytime soon," Stevens said of the 18-year-old Sbisa, who cannot be sent to the Phantoms because AHL players must be at least 20 years old.

When Jones returns, Lasse Kukkonen - who has already cleared waivers - will likely be sent to the Phantoms.

Even that won't free enough salary-cap space.

The Flyers are about $450,000 under the cap, a number that will swell to $1.3 million if Kukkonen is sent to the Phantoms. But that's not nearly enough room to add Jones ($2.7 million), who has been sidelined after hip surgery.

"When he's ready, we'll probably have to make some adjustments," general manager Paul Holmgren said yesterday.

In other words, a trade could be coming.

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12-01-2008, 10:00 AM
  #62
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Article in today's Philadelphia Inquirer:
Haha I like the "In other words, a trade could be coming." A trade most definitely should be coming and one that includes Jones.

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12-01-2008, 10:35 AM
  #63
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Trade Jones and Alberts for someone that doesnt suck.

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12-01-2008, 11:50 AM
  #64
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Trade Jones and Alberts for someone that doesnt suck.
I suggested Lupul and Jones to the Blues for McKee+, then immediately waiving Alberts.

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12-01-2008, 01:01 PM
  #65
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I still believe Sbisa has to go to juniors. He doesn't look very good most nights. What he's doing is great for an 18 year old, non-generational talent, but it's not good enough for a contender. Jones at the very least is a little more solid in his own zone.

I'd give Parent some playing time to see if he's better than Alberts. If he's not, send him down.

Most likely option though is Alberts is waived for Jones (I don't see the team bailing on Jones this season).
Well, my only fear is having Jones and Sbisa on the third pairing together, that would spell disaster in my opinion. Its ashame they hate Kukkonen cause this would be a great opportunity to put Jones and Kukkonen back together as the 3rd pairing.

I would put Parent back in the AHL at least for several games or so to get back up to speed and then maybe you have Jones/Parent as your third pairing.

Alberts, while I am happy with his play as of late, is too expensive to be a #7 guy so I guess you need to move him, and then figure out who stays between Kukkonen and Sbisa

I would trade Jones in the offseason if possible though. I think having Carle and Sbisa makes him extrememly expendable and too expensive to keep.

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12-01-2008, 01:03 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Kambo View Post
Haha I like the "In other words, a trade could be coming." A trade most definitely should be coming and one that includes Jones.
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Originally Posted by mercury View Post
I suggested Lupul and Jones to the Blues for McKee+, then immediately waiving Alberts.
I would be all for a trade of Lupul/Jones but 1) I dont think Jones will have any value coming off the injury until he plays for a while and I am not sure McKee is the answer.

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12-01-2008, 01:13 PM
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I suggested Lupul and Jones to the Blues for McKee+, then immediately waiving Alberts.
seconded

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12-01-2008, 01:14 PM
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I would be all for a trade of Lupul/Jones but 1) I dont think Jones will have any value coming off the injury until he plays for a while and I am not sure McKee is the answer.
I'm with a few of the posters on here in saying that maybe Jones should be the one sent to the Phantoms and then try trading him from down there. I forget who it was yesterday that said it, but what sense does it make sending Parent down to get up to speed when it's only his shoulder that's hurt, whereas Jones has a bad hip. He'll more likely be the one that has to get his legs back.
And also, in light of this situation, I've noticed quite a few people on here say Parent should try to be dealt. I just want to know why. He's young, he's shown that he has the ability to play in the NHL, is already better than Jones, IMO, and is A LOT more affordable. I just don't get it.

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12-01-2008, 01:17 PM
  #69
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I'm with a few of the posters on here in saying that maybe Jones should be the one sent to the Phantoms and then try trading him from down there. I forget who it was yesterday that said it, but what sense does it make sending Parent down to get up to speed when it's only his shoulder that's hurt, whereas Jones has a bad hip. He'll more likely be the one that has to get his legs back.
And also, in light of this situation, I've noticed quite a few people on here say Parent should try to be dealt. I just want to know why. He's young, he's shown that he has the ability to play in the NHL, is already better than Jones, IMO, and is A LOT more affordable. I just don't get it.
I dont want any part of moving Parent. He is the perfect complement to someone like Carle down the line with Vaananen moving to the 3rd pairing.

Next year, barring any trade, I want to see the following:

Coburn Timonen
Carle Parent/Vaananen
Sbisa Vaananen/Parent

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12-01-2008, 01:19 PM
  #70
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I dont want any part of moving Parent. He is the perfect complement to someone like Carle down the line with Vaananen moving to the 3rd pairing.

Next year, barring any trade, I want to see the following:

Coburn Timonen
Carle Parent/Vaananen
Sbisa Vaananen/Parent
Exactly. I can't remember the posters off the top of my mind and I'm too lazy to go back and read, but anytime Parent gets brought up as being trade bait it makes me want to vomit. Why would anybody in their right mind want to keep Jones over him?

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12-01-2008, 02:58 PM
  #71
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I'm with a few of the posters on here in saying that maybe Jones should be the one sent to the Phantoms and then try trading him from down there. I forget who it was yesterday that said it, but what sense does it make sending Parent down to get up to speed when it's only his shoulder that's hurt, whereas Jones has a bad hip. He'll more likely be the one that has to get his legs back.
And also, in light of this situation, I've noticed quite a few people on here say Parent should try to be dealt. I just want to know why. He's young, he's shown that he has the ability to play in the NHL, is already better than Jones, IMO, and is A LOT more affordable. I just don't get it.
The problem is Jones can only be assigned to the AHL for a conditioning stint without having to clear waivers, which I believe is only two-weeks. Then he has to return to the big club. Parent can be put in the minors without waivers, so likely until they can work out room under the cap he will be stuck there.

And Parent should definitely not be dealt.

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12-01-2008, 03:09 PM
  #72
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The problem is Jones can only be assigned to the AHL for a conditioning stint without having to clear waivers, which I believe is only two-weeks. Then he has to return to the big club. Parent can be put in the minors without waivers, so likely until they can work out room under the cap he will be stuck there.

And Parent should definitely not be dealt.
It may still only be for two weeks, but I don't see the harm in sending him down for it. Maybe they'll do that, and by the time Parent comes back, Jones' two weeks will have passed and he'll be traded. One can dream......

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12-01-2008, 04:02 PM
  #73
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Come on guys, this is the Flyers we're walking about. Two other defensemen will be hurt by the time Jones and Parent are back.

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12-01-2008, 04:51 PM
  #74
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It may still only be for two weeks, but I don't see the harm in sending him down for it. Maybe they'll do that, and by the time Parent comes back, Jones' two weeks will have passed and he'll be traded. One can dream......
I would definitely take advantage of being able to send Jones down for that 2 weeks, that is two more weeks of his salary they save against the cap and give him a chance to get back into the swing of things.

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Come on guys, this is the Flyers we're walking about. Two other defensemen will be hurt by the time Jones and Parent are back.
That is a big possibiliy as well!

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12-01-2008, 05:05 PM
  #75
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I vote we trade his ass, I hate Jones
Trade his ass for a mean son of a b*tch who can play some D and clear the crease.

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