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The Vanek/Lydman and bad/ugly

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Old
11-29-2008, 09:30 PM
  #26
DuklaNation
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Originally Posted by aceface33 View Post
What, I just want to see that "20+ (now 50+) mistakes" that only someone who plays hockey can identify. You keep saying that you can do this, but never do. I agree with everything you've been saying thus far. I want to bathe in your vast knowledge.
Are you that dense? "Everyone ignoring 20+ mistakes by other players yet criticizing one player repeatedly." My exact words. Maybe remedial english is required for you. Obviously Id have to go back & review the game and write them down to appease a child.

Now go back your last post. Deflection is for kids who dont want to face reality.

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11-29-2008, 09:31 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DuklaNation View Post
Are you that dense? "Everyone ignoring 20+ mistakes by other players yet criticizing one player repeatedly." My exact words. Maybe remedial english is required for you. Obviously Id have to go back & review the game and write them down to appease a child.

Now go back your last post. Deflection is for kids who dont want to face reality.
Dukla nation, I REALLY WANT TO UNDERSTAND HOCKEY. Why won't you tell me about the mistakes.

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11-29-2008, 09:34 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by DuklaNation View Post
Defensive zone coverage by the 1st forward deep (usually the center) is sorely lacking. Why? MacArthur & Hecht are not legit C. Roy is passable. Gaustad is a 4th line guy. Therefore, you got defensive zone play by the C as a weak point almost 80% of the time.

Anyone with half a brain can see this. Regier has needed to shore up C ever since summer of 2007 yet has done ZERO to fix it.
Ding ding ding, we have a winner. I've never played hockey, but the idea that we can lose our top 2 centers, who also happen to be our captains, without replacing them is beyond ridiculous. If they want to keep Roy, fine, put him on the 2nd line, and use Goose or Hecht on the 3rd, except for every 13th game or so when Connolly is actually healthy enough to play there.

Bring in a legit center for Vanek already Darcy. Please.

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11-29-2008, 09:40 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by jlr View Post
Good:
- Vanek. Wow. Can we get him a real center yet?
- Lydman, doing his best Volchenkov impression.
- Lalime. Played much better than the scoreboard reflects, not much he could do on any of the 3 goals.

Bad:
- Kostitsyn the Younger. Stupid penalties.
- Whoever boarded Kaleta.
- Kaleta on the 2nd(?) goal. Looked like he was just holding his stick too tight and the puck bounced right off?
- Whoever was involved in that messy line change - Stafford? Poms? Max? No excuse for that kind of slop, in such an important game.
- Old Man Teppo. Really bad decision to re-sign him for this year. He obviously really needs a rest, so hopefully Paetch gets some ice time to make it happen.

Ugly:
- Derek the ******-bag. What a miserable excuse for a professional athlete. I don't care if he has another 80 point season, he needs to go, and the sooner the better. Package him up with Connolly and whatever else it takes to bring in a big, mean, playmaking center for Vanek.

I can't believe how much he flops all over the place and is constantly falling down, it just makes me sick. At this point, I actually enjoy watching him get knocked around by oppossing teams. He may draw the occasional penalty, but he costs us far more in lost opportunities.

The end of this game really reminded me of what we've lost from 2 years ago. Instead of watching Briere smack the puck home to tie it up with 10 seconds to go, I'm stuck watching this peachfuzz covered crybaby mother****er plop down on his ass, then have the nerve to sit there looking for a call.

Great work mangina, that potential 2 minute PP is OBVIOUSLY much more important than actually, you know, tying up the ****ing game. The guy is not first line center material, and never will be. Time to act before his hissy fits cost us any more games.
Agreed 100% on Roy. Theres only one difference between the President Trophy 2x Conference finals team and the one we have now and that is the Center position. Get us some legitimate centers Darcy.

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11-29-2008, 09:43 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by HarriSateri View Post
Agreed 100% on Roy. Theres only one difference between the President Trophy 2x Conference finals team and the one we have now and that is the Center position. Get us some legitimate centers Darcy.
They Still have Connolly.

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Old
11-29-2008, 09:57 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by aceface33 View Post
Dukla nation, I REALLY WANT TO UNDERSTAND HOCKEY. Why won't you tell me about the mistakes.
Feel good now?

Watch the game over (only the forwards). Now follow the 3rd defender (usually the C if no D have pinched) and the other 2 (usually wingers cover the point men). Count the mistakes. Just coverage will exceed 10+, let alone turnovers, mental errors, penalties, etc.

If this cant explain it for you, dont bother asking again.

I repeat for a 3rd time, deflection as a basis for argument is for children.

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Old
11-29-2008, 10:04 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by DuklaNation View Post
Feel good now?

Watch the game over (only the forwards). Now follow the 3rd defender (usually the C if no D have pinched) and the other 2 (usually wingers cover the point men). Count the mistakes. Just coverage will exceed 10+, let alone turnovers, mental errors, penalties, etc.

If this cant explain it for you, dont bother asking again.

I repeat for a 3rd time, deflection as a basis for argument is for children.
Look; I completely agree with everything your saying. That's just the point, anyone with half a brain can see that our forwards are making a ton of mistakes in the defensive zone and that our centers, quite frankly, suck at defense. The point is that you called everyone out on their analysis and claimed you could identify 20+ mistakes that everyone was ignoring. When I pressed you on it, you kept bringing up the same two lame examples over and over again, for which I'm (quite justifiably) ridiculing you.

The lesson here: don't insult everyone and use unsupportable generalizations to do it.

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Old
11-29-2008, 10:22 PM
  #33
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Adam Mair is currently making a charge to catch Andrew Peters as the most useless player on the roster. I hope he gets benched for Kotalik on Monday, because he deserves it the most. He can't handle the puck, he makes dumb decisions, he can't finish to save his life.

He may have the most heart on the team, but unless he can contribute on the ice, I don't see him being a useful player.

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Old
11-29-2008, 10:35 PM
  #34
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Everytime I watch a Sabres game I wonder how Roy has been able to score 80+ points last year

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11-29-2008, 11:09 PM
  #35
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Surprised not to see Tallinder on anybody's "ugly" list. Seems like every time I heard his name tonight, he was coughing up the puck.

Lindy might as well just sit his butt back down.

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Old
11-30-2008, 12:03 AM
  #36
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G: TV has refined his game perfectly over the past 3 years, and is obviously an elite goalscorer that can score in any possible way.....expect breakaways....

B: getting control of the puck during the PP. I feel this is our biggest struggle, getting it across the damn line, and getting uncontested control.

U: missing the first 7 minutes of the first period to due 2 Las Vegas casinos that do not play hockey. LAME.
some defensive members more than others.

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11-30-2008, 12:10 AM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TeNeIghtY View Post
Everytime I watch a Sabres game I wonder how Roy has been able to score 80+ points last year
yeah he is fragile....but he has had a slow start.

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Old
11-30-2008, 12:25 AM
  #38
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As you guys have all covered, Vanek and Lydman played terrific. I also liked the game from CMac and to a lesser degree Mancari. I think Mancari could develop into a legitimate replacement for Kotalik as long as he's limited to a 3rd line role. I can see Paille - CMac - Mancari turning into a phenomenal third line sooner rather than later.

Max should have been traded a couple years ago, and I'm willing to give Roy the benefit of the doubt but I've always disliked him and only really tolerated him because he made decent plays. He seems like the type of guy that doesn't really add anything in the dressing room and I'd absolutely hate him if he was on another team.

Rivet was really good until he got injured, and since then he's looked worse than Teppo. I know you guys have a hard-on for Rivet but he's constantly a step behind and getting beaten to loose pucks, constantly putting himself in horrible positions to get hit, and just generally is making more bad than good plays.

I know I have my own hard-on for Sekera, but him and Lydman were just in a different league tonight. It's really hard for me to believe that Sekera hasn't even played a full season's worth of games in the NHL yet and already has the poise and the swagger of a 10-year vet. He reminds me of a mish-mash of all the good attributes that our defensemen used to possess at the top of their game - Hank's puck-moving ability from a couple years ago, Campbell's ability to make a great first pass, pre-lockout Kalinin's positioning and ability to clear the zone, and a Zhitnik-esque ability to know when to pinch and when not to. I sound like a broken record, but Sekera will be our top defenseman...possibly by the end of the year. It's absolutely imperative that we lock him up for 5 or 6 years during the offseason.

I think overall this team has gotten absolutely screwed by the horrible scheduling in the month of November, and when you consider 2 points out of 4 against possibly the 2 best teams in the Eastern Conference on back to back nights, it's really not too bad. It sucks that we didn't get it tonight, but Montreal is an extremely tough team and they just played really well and got some breaks tonight.

I think the team will be fired up and have a great showing against Nashville on Monday... I'm predicting a 6-1 win.

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11-30-2008, 12:38 AM
  #39
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As cliche as it is to say, it has been the little things thus far that have impressed me most about Vanek.

- The improvement in his effort on the backcheck is incredible. He's a different player in that regard this year

- He has heightened his intelligence with regards to defense. If you watch him this year compared to last year, the proper reads and pickups he's making are really great to see.

He also knows how to defend in the D-zone. Watch when he has to put pressure on the point he covers. Instead of skating along the walls at the D-man with his stick out, he skates in the shooting lane of the defenseman and forces him to either shoot it into Vanek's legs or shoot it around him into the corner. Love those kinds of plays.


Anyways... Roy sucked, MacArthur was AWFUL, and Hecht was average.

Lalime, Sekera, and Afino looked okay to me.

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11-30-2008, 12:45 AM
  #40
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How do you think MacArthur was awful? He lost a couple pucks in the offensive zone trying to be a little too creative, but a much better effort than when Roy and Max do the same thing. I thought he stepped up his physical play a bunch tonight and was always trying to create yet still covering on D.

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11-30-2008, 12:52 AM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lecherous View Post
How do you think MacArthur was awful? He lost a couple pucks in the offensive zone trying to be a little too creative, but a much better effort than when Roy and Max do the same thing. I thought he stepped up his physical play a bunch tonight and was always trying to create yet still covering on D.
Too many giveaways. Not bad physically, but it drives me nuts when people try to do too much. I thought he was better than Roy, yes, but I didn't think this was Max's worst efforts. Turnovers as per usual, but at least he was in perpetual motion.

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Old
11-30-2008, 09:09 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by lecherous View Post

I think overall this team has gotten absolutely screwed by the horrible scheduling in the month of November, and when you consider 2 points out of 4 against possibly the 2 best teams in the Eastern Conference on back to back nights, it's really not too bad. It sucks that we didn't get it tonight, but Montreal is an extremely tough team and they just played really well and got some breaks tonight.

I think the team will be fired up and have a great showing against Nashville on Monday... I'm predicting a 6-1 win.
This is how I feel this morning. The real marker for me on if this team has turned the corner is Monday against Nashville. They've been playing to the level of their competition, and I don't want to see them take a night off against a lesser known opponent at home like they did against Columbus. They've played very tough teams in the last three games and if they bring that same effort in the next three they should win all of them. However, I haven't seen that consistency yet.

You want to talk about horrible scheduling...every time they play at Montreal this year it's on a Saturday night on the second half of a back to back. Thanks, NHL.

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Old
11-30-2008, 10:57 AM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlr View Post
Good:
- Vanek. Wow. Can we get him a real center yet?
- Lydman, doing his best Volchenkov impression.
- Lalime. Played much better than the scoreboard reflects, not much he could do on any of the 3 goals.

Bad:
- Kostitsyn the Younger. Stupid penalties.
- Whoever boarded Kaleta.
- Kaleta on the 2nd(?) goal. Looked like he was just holding his stick too tight and the puck bounced right off?
- Whoever was involved in that messy line change - Stafford? Poms? Max? No excuse for that kind of slop, in such an important game.
- Old Man Teppo. Really bad decision to re-sign him for this year. He obviously really needs a rest, so hopefully Paetch gets some ice time to make it happen.

Ugly:
- Derek the ******-bag. What a miserable excuse for a professional athlete. I don't care if he has another 80 point season, he needs to go, and the sooner the better. Package him up with Connolly and whatever else it takes to bring in a big, mean, playmaking center for Vanek.

I can't believe how much he flops all over the place and is constantly falling down, it just makes me sick. At this point, I actually enjoy watching him get knocked around by oppossing teams. He may draw the occasional penalty, but he costs us far more in lost opportunities.

The end of this game really reminded me of what we've lost from 2 years ago. Instead of watching Briere smack the puck home to tie it up with 10 seconds to go, I'm stuck watching this peachfuzz covered crybaby mother****er plop down on his ass, then have the nerve to sit there looking for a call.


Great work mangina, that potential 2 minute PP is OBVIOUSLY much more important than actually, you know, tying up the ****ing game. The guy is not first line center material, and never will be. Time to act before his hissy fits cost us any more games.

QFT. that was our chance to tie up the game but roy was too busy trying to sell a phantom trip/interference to put the puck in the net. its embarrassing especially when you see him jump to his feet so quick when the puck comes out, its obvious he's a diver. i get so pissed off watching him play. at the columbus game i thought he was one of our worst players, he spends half the game on his ass or his stomach looking at the ref

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Old
11-30-2008, 11:24 AM
  #44
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Mancari should go back on a line with Gaustad or Kotalik so that he won't have to be the primary guy along the boards and so he can be set up for a ridiculously hard one-timer in the slot.

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11-30-2008, 12:02 PM
  #45
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I have just a few things.

First, the refs were good from what I saw. Yeah, they bought into a couple of dives, but compared to the abominations that were the Bruins game and the Pittsburgh game, they were stellar. Give credit where it's due.

Rivet has been far from solid, but he's been amazingly steady at one thing in particular: Keeping the puck in the offensive zone. There were about 5 times during ONE powerplay where he kept the puck in the Habs zone, leading to numerous scoring chances.

Aside from that, everything's been pretty much covered.

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11-30-2008, 03:23 PM
  #46
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Two goals rarely wins a hockey game.

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11-30-2008, 03:36 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jBuds View Post
As cliche as it is to say, it has been the little things thus far that have impressed me most about Vanek.

- The improvement in his effort on the backcheck is incredible. He's a different player in that regard this year

- He has heightened his intelligence with regards to defense. If you watch him this year compared to last year, the proper reads and pickups he's making are really great to see.

He also knows how to defend in the D-zone. Watch when he has to put pressure on the point he covers. Instead of skating along the walls at the D-man with his stick out, he skates in the shooting lane of the defenseman and forces him to either shoot it into Vanek's legs or shoot it around him into the corner. Love those kinds of plays.
These three points are what I have hated Vanek for never having all out passion for in years past and I admit I have been very tough on Vanek in the past but he is quickly becoming one of the best young forwards in the league his contract is going to be an absolute bargain if he continues to play like he has.

My favorite types of players are two-way forwards Pominville, Hecht, Drury, and Vanek is quickly climbing the list the improvements shown that you have mentioned Jbuds just shows how much he has improved and we are not even close to the half way point in the season.

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11-30-2008, 05:14 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by DuklaNation View Post
Thanks for proving my point.

Lets take Montreal's 3rd goal. Stafford lets the point man go. Lydman picks his nose in front of the net and provides zero support. thats 2 on that play. There were way more than 20 throughout the game.

Defensive zone coverage by the 1st forward deep (usually the center) is sorely lacking. Why? MacArthur & Hecht are not legit C. Roy is passable. Gaustad is a 4th line guy. Therefore, you got defensive zone play by the C as a weak point almost 80% of the time.

Anyone with half a brain can see this. Regier has needed to shore up C ever since summer of 2007 yet has done ZERO to fix it.


Actually, Hecht's defensive zone coverage as a center is usually very strong. He has had a bad stretch of games, it happens. The only questioning of him at 2nd line center has been whether he can provide enough offense. Roy has struggled at times this year but generally is also solid defensively. Goose has also shown an abiltiy defensively as a 3rd line center and a winger.

There is a difference between struggling at something as a player and not having the ability to do it. These guys have struggled or are struggling but have proven in the past more than capable to get the job done.

We need a legit center to cure some supposed defensive issues with that position cause by the 2007 summer departures? The only center we lost that was solid defensively was Drury. Briere was not that good defensively thats why Hecht was out there with him. Being a "legit center", as you put it, does not make you defensively astute. It just means you're a center.

Now if you said we needed a more reliable option in the top 9 to replace Connolly, you would be on to something. His health and faceoffs are the only major issues with the centers IMO. Their defensive play is no where near is bad as you are trying to make it seem.


Your 80% theory on the centers doesn't hold up. Sure they have had their issues but the bigger problem has been the wingers not the centers. They are not holding the walls on breakouts, getting back after a turnover or covering the backdoor when the other team is cycling in our zone.

Not one of the goals last night can be blamed on a center.

-Habs 1st goal was a bungled play by Kaleta then its in the net

-Habs 2nd goal starts with Pommer making a poor decision. He should have skated passed the red line and dumped the puck in for a line change. Instead he makes the play he did which leads to a turnover and a terrible line change, followed by Max not picking up the goal scorer up high. The other two players didn't get back becasue they had just stepped on the ice from a line change. I don't care how fast there are, there was no way they were getting back there in time.

-Habs 3rd goal was score on a 4 on 4 so defensively there is no "center" postion if you will for defending purposes. The had a box set up defensively. When the others moved Stafford didn't move down to cover for Lydman sliding over. Because Stafford failed to cover for Lydman, he wasn't able to pick up Markov coming in and he scored.

Maybe you should take your own advice and rewatch the game. None of those goals were caused by a center not playing his defensive responsibility correctly.


Quote:
Honestly, its like some people on this board have never played hockey ever.

I've played for 30+ years and have coached for 7yrs and counting. Are those enough years of expercience to be able to debate your points?


Last edited by joshjull: 11-30-2008 at 06:44 PM.
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Old
11-30-2008, 11:27 PM
  #49
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A few observations:

Kaleta got stuck playing D on the giveaway play because Tallinder went in deep on a pretty mediocre play. He looked really surprised to be in that position. It seemed like he thought another forward should have been covering, which means he either doesn't know the system, or someone else really did screw up. He should have handled the pass, but I blame Teppo too. At the beginning of the year, Teppo was making really smooth passes to get out of trouble. Recently, he's been making some questionable ones. Not sure what's going on with him. Tallinder shares some blame on this play too.

And speaking of not being able to handle passes, has anyone else noticed that Pominville can't keep the puck in the offensive zone recently when he's on the point on the PP? This has been going on for a couple of weeks now. He needs to move to the half wall and let someone else cover the point. He's costing them a ton of PP time.

I agree with the guy who suggested putting Al in for Mair.

Not sure why the opinions on MacArthur are so varied. I personally have been underwhelmed, but it's interesting how much people differ on this.

I'll take the unpopular opinion and say that I didn't think Roy and Max were as bad as everyone else. Max made a few bonehead plays, but he had some pretty good puck-possession shifts and opened up a lot of space.

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Old
12-01-2008, 08:21 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oblio View Post
Two goals rarely wins a hockey game.
You were saying?

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