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Putting some of the blame where it belongs

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Old
11-30-2008, 02:07 PM
  #1
Inferno
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Putting some of the blame where it belongs

You all know how much I blame renney for all this mess, but we also have to put some blame on Glen Sather, and a few players in particular.

Scott Gomez. Paid to be a #1 ELITE center, rarely is a point a game player.

Chris Drury. Paid to be a #1 ELITE center/winger, is basically a 20 goal scorer.

Wade Redden. Paid to be a #1 ELITE defenseman, has been basically a 3-4 defenseman AT BEST this year.


In fact, the only monster contract that Sather has given out that has paid off? Henrik Lundqvist.

We havent played well this year, and that starts with the GM who paid certain players to be elite players, who are borderline 2nd liners. These players who signed these fat contracts also need to be held accountable for not producing to the expected levels. In the salary cap era, if you are a GM giving out contracts to players who dont even come close to deserving that kind of money, then you are an IDIOT.

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11-30-2008, 02:18 PM
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Agreed 100%. Drury nor Gomez are 1st line elite players....yet on this team b/c they are paid as such, they are expected to be. The bottom line is they are not. They are 2nd line support players.

Jagr would still be here if not for those two.

Jagr & Nylander>>>>>>>>>>Gomez and Drury.

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11-30-2008, 02:34 PM
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It should be put on Renney. He can't get this team motivated for ****, and he can't do a damn thing about the PP.

"Hmm, our PP sucks, lets put out the 3rd line."
"Oh what the hell, we are already O for 4, lets put Orr and Betts on the PP"

Also, what I don't get is why Kalinin got more ice time than Girardi AND Staal? And why hasn't Staal been on the PP? He was on there for 4 seconds and got a shot off, while the rest of the team could barely get one off.

Why isn't Sjostrom with Gomez? He's probably one of the only players that can keep up with Gomez as he gains the zone. He definitely has the hands and speed, but he is being wasted on the 4th line with Betts and Orr.

The team can't just hope that Lundy has great games one after another.

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11-30-2008, 02:37 PM
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I say the same thing over and over but it amazes me how many people just don't get it.

Gomez and Drury shouldn't be expected to be elite by anyone. Were they elite before they got here? NO. What they're being paid has nothing to do with what we should expect from them. We overpaid for them, therefore the blame goes on Sather.

Hell, with that logic let's go ahead and throw 7M at Malik and expect him to play like Lidstrom.

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11-30-2008, 02:47 PM
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Thefalkon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alphaqup View Post
I say the same thing over and over but it amazes me how many people just don't get it.

Gomez and Drury shouldn't be expected to be elite by anyone. Were they elite before they got here? NO. What they're being paid has nothing to do with what we should expect from them. We overpaid for them, therefore the blame goes on Sather.

Hell, with that logic let's go ahead and throw 7M at Malik and expect him to play like Lidstrom.
EXACTLY. Drury isn't an 80+ points guy, and either is Gomez. Neither of them are top 10 or even top 15 in players in the league. They are just overpaid.

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11-30-2008, 02:50 PM
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thewaitingisover
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I agree, this is what it boils down to:

Gomez: 7.3 mil (4 goals, 10 assists, I'm aware he missed 5 games)
Drury: 7 mil (8 goals, 6 assists...from the captain)
Redden: 6.5 mil (2 goals, 8 assists)
Rozsival: 5 mil (2 goals, 12 assists)

Gomez, Drury, Rozsival: 14 points each
Redden: 10

Now lets look around the league at other "elite" players making about the same amount of money (or less), and their production...

Hossa: 7.5 mil (13 goals, 13 assists, 26 points)
Malkin: 3.8 mil this season: 10 goals, 29 assists, 39 points
Semin: 4.6 mil (13 goals, 14 assists, 27 points)
Vanek: 7.1 mil (17 goals, 6 assists, 24 points)
Carter: 5 mil (16 goals, 6 assists, 22 points)
Zetterberg: 2.6 mil (11 goals, 12 assists, 23 points)
Weber: 4.5 mil (10 goals, 12 assists, 22 points, leads the NHL in points for defensemen)

Who leads the Rangers in points? Zherdev, Naslund, and Girardi. 4 mil, 2.5 mil, and 1.5 mil, respectively. Who are the Rangers best two defensemen? Of course, the two who are paid the least amount of money, Staal and Girardi!

I have come to the conclusion (as I'm sure many others have too) that this team is incapable of playing a full game. They win 3 in a row, who cares? They beat Phoenix, great. Tampa and Florida, both in shootouts. I'm not going to watch this team win in shootouts all year. Come playoff time, they're not going to be able to do that. It's apparently so difficult to score more than two goals against Florida, but can be blown out 4-0 two days later by the team who sits one spot out of the bottom of the conference. Lundqvist has played great (he's probably the only one besides Zherdev and maybe Naslund), but pulled two times in six games? That's a Turco problem. I've said it all along, they need one all-star defenseman and one all-star forward. Gomez and Drury can make all the money on earth but they're simply not producing.

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11-30-2008, 02:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYRhockey16 View Post
It should be put on Renney. He can't get this team motivated for ****, and he can't do a damn thing about the PP.

"Hmm, our PP sucks, lets put out the 3rd line."
"Oh what the hell, we are already O for 4, lets put Orr and Betts on the PP"

Also, what I don't get is why Kalinin got more ice time than Girardi AND Staal? And why hasn't Staal been on the PP? He was on there for 4 seconds and got a shot off, while the rest of the team could barely get one off.

Why isn't Sjostrom with Gomez? He's probably one of the only players that can keep up with Gomez as he gains the zone. He definitely has the hands and speed, but he is being wasted on the 4th line with Betts and Orr.

The team can't just hope that Lundy has great games one after another.
Don't you dare say a bad thing about Renney.

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11-30-2008, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by NYRhockey16 View Post
EXACTLY. Drury isn't an 80+ points guy, and either is Gomez. Neither of them are top 10 or even top 15 in players in the league. They are just overpaid.
and you dont see a problem with that? i didnt want EITHER of these 2 guys here, them coming here stopped us from blowing a guy like Hossa out of the water with a huge contract. Them being here is going to stop us from blowing a guy like Kovalchuk out of the water when he becomes a free agent. Them being here is going to stop us from blowing a guy like Gaborik out of the water when he becomes a free agent.

THIS IS A HUGE PROBLEM, in the non salary cap era, it wouldnt be a big deal, right now, its a monstrous problem we have to deal with.

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11-30-2008, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gravytrain6t View Post
Don't you dare say a bad thing about Renney.

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11-30-2008, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
and you dont see a problem with that? i didnt want EITHER of these 2 guys here, them coming here stopped us from blowing a guy like Hossa out of the water with a huge contract. Them being here is going to stop us from blowing a guy like Kovalchuk out of the water when he becomes a free agent. Them being here is going to stop us from blowing a guy like Gaborik out of the water when he becomes a free agent.

THIS IS A HUGE PROBLEM, in the non salary cap era, it wouldnt be a big deal, right now, its a monstrous problem we have to deal with.
Yeah. If they where paid like 4 mill, we would easily be able to sign the likes of (dare I say it..)Sundin or Hossa(I would have loved to have him. Him and Gomez seemed to mesh well in my mind).

if we signed Hossa, it would continue our trend of signing the players that knocked us out of the playoffs.

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11-30-2008, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
and you dont see a problem with that? i didnt want EITHER of these 2 guys here, them coming here stopped us from blowing a guy like Hossa out of the water with a huge contract. Them being here is going to stop us from blowing a guy like Kovalchuk out of the water when he becomes a free agent. Them being here is going to stop us from blowing a guy like Gaborik out of the water when he becomes a free agent.

Lay the blame at the feet of Glen Sather, he's the guy running amok with Dolan's checkbook.

What, did you expect the agent for Drury or Gomez to decline Sather's wad of cash?


"Sorry Glen, my client would prefer to make several million dollars a year less than what you're offering..."

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11-30-2008, 04:08 PM
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NYR Sting
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alphaqup View Post
I say the same thing over and over but it amazes me how many people just don't get it.

Gomez and Drury shouldn't be expected to be elite by anyone. Were they elite before they got here? NO. What they're being paid has nothing to do with what we should expect from them. We overpaid for them, therefore the blame goes on Sather.

Hell, with that logic let's go ahead and throw 7M at Malik and expect him to play like Lidstrom.
I agree that expecting them to be elite is foolish. THEY SHOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN SIGNED IN THE FIRST PLACE. I would take Drury for about 4 million, not a penny more. Gomez and Redden I wouldn't even want at a discount.

But I imagine that Renney has a lot of input into Sather's roster-building decisions. They should both be held accountable. Perry Pearn should be fired, as well. How many years is it going to take for this team to have a decent power play? In the "new" NHL, games are decided by special teams. The best teams in the league are all in the top half of the league in BOTH PP and PK. We have an elite PK and a garbage PP. No one should be surprised we don't score goals. Our PP sucks.

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Old
11-30-2008, 04:20 PM
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Inferno
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Gomez: 5-5.5
Drury: 4.5-5

Thats what they are worth ON THEIR BEST DAY.

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Old
11-30-2008, 04:24 PM
  #14
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Renney sucks
Drury sucks
Gomez Sucks
PP sucks
Roszival Sucks
Kalinin Sucks
Redden Sucks

Zherdev is good
Lundqvist is good
Naslund is good

The team has fundamental holes that Renney seems incapable of fixing. Basically if Hank has a night where he doesn't play like the best goalie in the world...the team loses. It's that simple.

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11-30-2008, 04:39 PM
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Larry Melnyk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hightide85 View Post
Renney sucks
Drury sucks
Gomez Sucks
PP sucks
Roszival Sucks
Kalinin Sucks
Redden Sucks

Zherdev is good
Lundqvist is good
Naslund is good

The team has fundamental holes that Renney seems incapable of fixing. Basically if Hank has a night where he doesn't play like the best goalie in the world...the team loses. It's that simple.
No arguement here...but don't stop there....

Orr SUCKS...
Sjostrom Really SUCKS..
Dubi has been playing like crap...

Yes, Renney deserves alot of blame right now for not having the team play hard all the time and not playing it's best individually or collectively...but this team has ALOT of wholes in the roster...

As has been apparent from JUly, the team lacks a top 6 forward big tiime...It will go NOWEHER without the additon of one...It also lacks a physical presence on the top two lines...It also lack a physical D-man...Sather addressed none of this...but saddled the team wit crap like Reddend/Rozy for 10 years and the finessy and inconsistent Naslund.....And then we have the 3rd and 4th lines..Two total zeroes, totally incapable of contibuting to the offense.......But I forgot, we have those defensive specialists in Orr and SJostrom clamping down on the the other teams..Especailly SJostrom..Worhtless offesively but a defesnive whiz as his -7 in his last 7 or 8 games would attest too..But Renney keeps on skating him and Orr no matter what...

Basically, this is a tag team effort between Sather and Renny...

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11-30-2008, 04:54 PM
  #16
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...I had an entire thread written out with statistical breakdowns of the team at the 1/3 mark of the season vs. how we compared to other teams. It provided some insight into "putting some of the blame where it belongs" yet it was deleted? WTF, why did I waste my time writing out a thread just for it to be deleted.

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11-30-2008, 05:19 PM
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Thefalkon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Melnyk View Post
No argument here...but don't stop there....

Orr SUCKS...
Sjostrom Really SUCKS..
Dubi has been playing like crap...

Yes, Renney deserves a lot of blame right now for not having the team play hard all the time and not playing it's best individually or collectively...but this team has A LOT of holes in the roster...

As has been apparent from JUly, the team lacks a top 6 forward big time...It will go NOWHERE without the addition of one...It also lacks a physical presence on the top two lines...It also lacks a physical D-man...Sather addressed none of this...but saddled the team with crap like Redden/Rozy for 10 years and the finessy and inconsistent Naslund.....And then we have the 3rd and 4th lines..Two total zeroes, totally incapable of contributing to the offense.......But I forgot, we have those defensive specialists in Orr and SJostrom clamping down on the the other teams..Especailly SJostrom..Worthless offensively but a defensive with as his -7 in his last 7 or 8 games would attest too..But Renney keeps on skating him and Orr no matter what...

Basically, this is a tag team effort between Sather and Renney...
A physical dman won't change much in the way the we are playing. And you can't honestly say that Sjostrom sucks offensively, and that he is worthless.

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11-30-2008, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Larry Melnyk View Post
No arguement here...but don't stop there....

Orr SUCKS...
Sjostrom Really SUCKS..
Dubi has been playing like crap...

Yes, Renney deserves alot of blame right now for not having the team play hard all the time and not playing it's best individually or collectively...but this team has ALOT of wholes in the roster...

As has been apparent from JUly, the team lacks a top 6 forward big tiime...It will go NOWEHER without the additon of one...It also lacks a physical presence on the top two lines...It also lack a physical D-man...Sather addressed none of this...but saddled the team wit crap like Reddend/Rozy for 10 years and the finessy and inconsistent Naslund.....And then we have the 3rd and 4th lines..Two total zeroes, totally incapable of contibuting to the offense.......But I forgot, we have those defensive specialists in Orr and SJostrom clamping down on the the other teams..Especailly SJostrom..Worhtless offesively but a defesnive whiz as his -7 in his last 7 or 8 games would attest too..But Renney keeps on skating him and Orr no matter what...

Basically, this is a tag team effort between Sather and Renny...
wow no argument on the orr suckage but sjo, hes been good. considering who he has to play with, id say hes been very good. i go one further and say he deserves some 3rd line time and continued pk time.

i happen to like sjos game. his numbers improve dramatically if we remove orr and add say fritsche or prucha instead.

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11-30-2008, 06:03 PM
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I'm becoming extremely impatient with

1) Gomez. Is he even on pace for 50 points? I don't think so. The guy can skate, but that's about it. Where the hell are the passes everyone raved about? Yeah, he can gain the zone, but then what?

2) Redden. How long is this guy going to get the benefit of the doubt for playing in a new city, albeit NYC? The guy has serious trouble even staying on his skates. I don't think I've seen a defenseman fall on his skates as much since Purinton was learning to skate backwards 8 years ago.

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11-30-2008, 06:06 PM
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i don't care who you bring to this team, what position he plays or what he's accomplished in the NHL. renney gets a hold of em and they become a different player

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11-30-2008, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by ciggy View Post
i don't care who you bring to this team, what position he plays or what he's accomplished in the NHL. renney gets a hold of em and they become a different player
Yes, they do play way too conservative at times, but what else can they do? Nobody on this team can score consistently.

I'm starting to think someone was holding a gun to Sather's head when he signed Gomez & Redden.

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11-30-2008, 06:13 PM
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Larry Melnyk
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Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
wow no argument on the orr suckage but sjo, hes been good. considering who he has to play with, id say hes been very good. i go one further and say he deserves some 3rd line time and continued pk time.

i happen to like sjos game. his numbers improve dramatically if we remove orr and add say fritsche or prucha instead.
I honestly can't believe the adolation of Sjostrom around here..He's a non entity outside of SHootouts and contributes nothing offensively or defensively....He's done nothing offesnively anywhere for about 60-70 games..no matter the linemates.....He has alwasy skated..that's it... but his defensive coverage is poor and is a big part of the reason he and the Betts-Orr-Shjostrom line have been on ice for alot of goals agaisnt lately....He needs to take a seat in the press box for a little while....Ditto for Orr who does not do the one job (being a physical presence) he is capable of..A waste of a roster space when he doesn't do this...

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11-30-2008, 06:18 PM
  #23
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it is very unfair to label any player when they play in a system like renneys.. it seems like betts is the only player that has flourished under renney !


why it that ?

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11-30-2008, 06:34 PM
  #24
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Found this on another board. Projected point totals for each player.

Quote:
After 1/3 of the season:

Zherdev 67-69
Näslund 58-60
Dubinsky 46-48
Girardi 43-45
Rozsival 40-42
Gomez 40-42
Drury 40-42

Voros 37-39
Redden 28-30
Callahan 25-27
Mara 22-24
Kalinin 16-18
Dawes 13-15
Betts 13-15
Staal 13-15
Fritsche 10-12
Sjöström 7-9
Korpikoski 6-8
Orr 6-8
Lundqvist 2-3

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11-30-2008, 06:52 PM
  #25
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yeah hate to be a Devils fan posting here but my boyfriend is a hardcore rangers fan and he pointed out to me that Gionta who they said couldn't lay without Gomez is now 7 goals 12 assists in 19 games and our 3rd-4th line enforcer Clarkson who last season couldn't even skate across the ice without messing up or falling now has 5 goals 1 more then the wonderful Gomez.

You guys can keep Gomez You never know he could pick up, but I dont think hes worth 7 mil. I like Drury though, Devils will trade you Langenbrunner He is good if you like taking hooking penalties! It sucks though that your best players like Zherdev and Callahan and i'd even say Dubinsky even though he hasn't been at his best, will make nothing next year since they are saying with the economy the cap may go down. Rangers need to clear some cap space.

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