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Next season: Satan, Sykora, Fedotenko, Gill, Boucher

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Old
12-02-2008, 08:10 PM
  #126
Jag68Sid87
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Scuderi isn't a bottom pairing defenseman. He's a top four next to a top offensive rearguard on a high scoring team. He does all the dirty work and never gets any credit for it. He's one of, if not our very best penalty-killer and a true leader by example on this team. Two million isn't a huge deal, especially if a guy like Eaton isn't making that amount here next season.

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12-02-2008, 09:22 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
How about this

To Hawks
C Jordan Staal

To Pens
RW/LW Troy Brouwer
RW Jack Skille
C/LW Akim Aliu
Calgary's 2nd in 2010

Hawks could only make this move after dumping some salary (Sopel or Khabby most likely)
There will be those here, quite a few, who say: "No, we cannot do this, because the only way we let Staal go is if some signed, established top6 winger is coming in his place +".

I think those are missing out on the facts that a: the only way of enticing very good prospects in bulk is to give someone more established in return, b: whenever any team has a winger with legitimate top 6 credentials who is already producing on a good enough contract that we can take them over, they hang on to them, c: that Staal is rated quite a lot higher by the Pittsburgh fan base than he is most anywhere else at the same time as d: he would be in a position to produce better numbers and value on most other teams than ours.

The offer above - its one we should take, as its three legitimate top6 wing prospects (not 100%, but very good chances of it at least with the first two), with one of them playing there already for Chicago and Skille having had games with Chicago in previous seasons, now being a PPG forward in Rockford - for cap reasons also.
If ANY of them deliver on their potential (think Versteeg this season), that player will have as much or more impact on Pittsburgh as Staal playing third line center.
These players are also at a price, provided Brouwer is resigned reasonably in the offseason as he should be as an NHL rookie, where they'd cost us less combined than the price of prolonging Staal - for several years. AND it would leave the room to get more of an impact player in free agency instead of doing so in the Staal trade... ie. not giving up assets to do so.
Personally I am quite sure both Brouwer and Skille would become top six wingers for Pittsburgh next season.

xxx Sid (8.7) Skille (1.25)
Brouwer (1.2) Malkin (8.7) Sykora (2.5)
Cooke (1.2) Talbot (1.2) Kennedy (0.75)
Jeffrey (0.5) Zigo (0.8) Godard (0.75)
Bissonette (0.5)

Gonch (5) Letang (0.835)
Whitney (4) Orpik (3.7)
Goligoski (1.5) Scuderi (1.5)
7th (1) (capable free agent or using the farm guys)

Fleury (5)
Sab/Curry (0.6)

Dupuis and Eaton moved for whatever picks. Someone will give a pick at least. Lets assume that more is a bonus.
Down the line the mix is just frightening, our system depth is suddenly great, and cap concerns are pretty much gone. The only significant pieces left to sign would be Letang next year and touching up Skille's second deal. Very manageable.

Nevermind whether the renegotiated values are completely there, they're close or should be. With the cap staying about the same that's a little more than 4 million to get an established power forward for Sid. Going forward, that is a whole lot more appealing than keeping Staal at a higher price than he produces for us (love him, but there's no way he produces to the tune of a 4-4.5 million forward on the third line, Whitney with his 50 points does provide that output).

Is it also a gamble.... yeah, but a very modest one, and whoever didn't get it the first, second or third time, the alternative is that we don't trade any of our top guns, and we have three third liners on the top 6 with Sykora.. or two Sykora caliber guys and a devastated bottom six. Perhaps that ends up the situation, and I'd bet we'll still be competitive. But I prefer the other way, for sure.


Last edited by Tender Rip: 12-02-2008 at 09:36 PM.
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Old
12-02-2008, 10:11 PM
  #128
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Scuderi a top 4? Lol...

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Old
12-02-2008, 10:20 PM
  #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
Scuderi isn't a bottom pairing defenseman. He's a top four next to a top offensive rearguard on a high scoring team. He does all the dirty work and never gets any credit for it. He's one of, if not our very best penalty-killer and a true leader by example on this team. Two million isn't a huge deal, especially if a guy like Eaton isn't making that amount here next season.
Scuderi is a bottom pairing guy. To be an effective top 4 defenseman you probably need to have a modicum of ability when it comes to making outlet passes. Maybe he has as much defensive sense as a Brooks Orpik, but Orpik can actually make passes and skate much better.

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Old
12-02-2008, 10:41 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by There's only one 66 View Post
There will be those here, quite a few, who say: "No, we cannot do this, because the only way we let Staal go is if some signed, established top6 winger is coming in his place +".

I think those are missing out on the facts that a: the only way of enticing very good prospects in bulk is to give someone more established in return, b: whenever any team has a winger with legitimate top 6 credentials who is already producing on a good enough contract that we can take them over, they hang on to them, c: that Staal is rated quite a lot higher by the Pittsburgh fan base than he is most anywhere else at the same time as d: he would be in a position to produce better numbers and value on most other teams than ours.

The offer above - its one we should take, as its three legitimate top6 wing prospects (not 100%, but very good chances of it at least with the first two), with one of them playing there already for Chicago and Skille having had games with Chicago in previous seasons, now being a PPG forward in Rockford - for cap reasons also.
If ANY of them deliver on their potential (think Versteeg this season), that player will have as much or more impact on Pittsburgh as Staal playing third line center.
These players are also at a price, provided Brouwer is resigned reasonably in the offseason as he should be as an NHL rookie, where they'd cost us less combined than the price of prolonging Staal - for several years. AND it would leave the room to get more of an impact player in free agency instead of doing so in the Staal trade... ie. not giving up assets to do so.
Personally I am quite sure both Brouwer and Skille would become top six wingers for Pittsburgh next season.

xxx Sid (8.7) Skille (1.25)
Brouwer (1.2) Malkin (8.7) Sykora (2.5)
Cooke (1.2) Talbot (1.2) Kennedy (0.75)
Jeffrey (0.5) Zigo (0.8) Godard (0.75)
Bissonette (0.5)

Gonch (5) Letang (0.835)
Whitney (4) Orpik (3.7)
Goligoski (1.5) Scuderi (1.5)
7th (1) (capable free agent or using the farm guys)

Fleury (5)
Sab/Curry (0.6)

Dupuis and Eaton moved for whatever picks. Someone will give a pick at least. Lets assume that more is a bonus.
Down the line the mix is just frightening, our system depth is suddenly great, and cap concerns are pretty much gone. The only significant pieces left to sign would be Letang next year and touching up Skille's second deal. Very manageable.

Nevermind whether the renegotiated values are completely there, they're close or should be. With the cap staying about the same that's a little more than 4 million to get an established power forward for Sid. Going forward, that is a whole lot more appealing than keeping Staal at a higher price than he produces for us (love him, but there's no way he produces to the tune of a 4-4.5 million forward on the third line, Whitney with his 50 points does provide that output).

Is it also a gamble.... yeah, but a very modest one, and whoever didn't get it the first, second or third time, the alternative is that we don't trade any of our top guns, and we have three third liners on the top 6 with Sykora.. or two Sykora caliber guys and a devastated bottom six. Perhaps that ends up the situation, and I'd bet we'll still be competitive. But I prefer the other way, for sure.
I couldn't agree more. All it takes is ONE of those players in the trade to match Staal's output, and the rest is just bonus.

I don't think we will miss Staal either. He is a big boy...but is he ever so soft. He's not going to turn into a physical monster one day..he is too nice and too gentle, and that wont change no matter how big he is. Brouwer and Skille are both big power guys I believe.

Also, trading Whitney for the winger help is a huge mistake..especially once Gonch retires. So that further points to Staal. Not to mention Talbot and Zigo being very capable 3/4 line centers.


I just hope Shero sees it the same way as you do.

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Old
12-02-2008, 10:58 PM
  #131
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*Sigh*....Enver Lisin teases me with 2 goals tonight for 6pts in 8 games, I better not see Skille up and start doing well as well, they are the wingers I want Shero to pick up. They is perfect for the top 6 economically speaking.

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Old
12-03-2008, 10:34 AM
  #132
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But we don't have to give up a Staal in order to acquire a Lisin/Skille type.

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12-03-2008, 12:16 PM
  #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
But we don't have to give up a Staal in order to acquire a Lisin/Skille type.

You think so? Who do you think Chicago or Phoenix will take to get one of those guys then?

Feds?
Dupuis?
One of our W/B guys who obviously haven't done enough to be thought of as top six wingers, yet?

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Old
12-03-2008, 01:17 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by BatonRougePen25 View Post
You think so? Who do you think Chicago or Phoenix will take to get one of those guys then?

Feds?
Dupuis?
One of our W/B guys who obviously haven't done enough to be thought of as top six wingers, yet?
Well, just like vcx has pointed out by going crazy now because Lisin is scoring points at the NHL level, the key is to make a small deal before the guy emerges and establishes himself once and for all at the NHL level.

Hell, trade Pesonen for Skille. Tallon may be stupid enough to do it.

But Jordan Staal is a very very important cog in our whole scheme of things. He plays way more than the average third-line center, so to move him for a top-six winger can be viewed as a lateral move, one that would then require a reshuffling of the deck up front.

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Old
12-05-2008, 06:09 PM
  #135
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What about:

Pitt Receives:

TBL 1st Round Pick



TBL Receives:

Pitt 1st Round Pick
TBL 3rd Round Pick(currently owned by Pittsburgh)
TBL 5th Round Pick(currently owned by Pittsburgh)
Mark Eaton
Janne Pesosen


When Whitney returns.

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Old
12-05-2008, 06:53 PM
  #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pensown View Post
What about:

Pitt Receives:

TBL 1st Round Pick



TBL Receives:

Pitt 1st Round Pick
TBL 3rd Round Pick(currently owned by Pittsburgh)
TBL 5th Round Pick(currently owned by Pittsburgh)
Mark Eaton
Janne Pesosen


When Whitney returns.
If only. The way Tampa has been playing that would be basically Tavares/Hedman/Cowen for Taylor Doherty + two Nathan Moons but one year behind in developmen + Overpriced d-man even at $2M + another friggin 4th line forward.

If only

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Old
12-05-2008, 07:13 PM
  #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pensown View Post
What about:

Pitt Receives:

TBL 1st Round Pick



TBL Receives:

Pitt 1st Round Pick
TBL 3rd Round Pick(currently owned by Pittsburgh)
TBL 5th Round Pick(currently owned by Pittsburgh)
Mark Eaton
Janne Pesosen


When Whitney returns.
tampa bay has done some stupid trades lately but I don't think they are that dumb.

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Old
12-05-2008, 07:15 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
Well, just like vcx has pointed out by going crazy now because Lisin is scoring points at the NHL level, the key is to make a small deal before the guy emerges and establishes himself once and for all at the NHL level.

Hell, trade Pesonen for Skille. Tallon may be stupid enough to do it.

But Jordan Staal is a very very important cog in our whole scheme of things. He plays way more than the average third-line center, so to move him for a top-six winger can be viewed as a lateral move, one that would then require a reshuffling of the deck up front.
Whats funny here is that Lisin was given an opportunity to succeed in Phoenix with 16 mins of ice time right from the start. If only we treated our prospects the same way.

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Old
12-05-2008, 07:18 PM
  #139
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Whats funny here is that Lisin was given an opportunity to succeed in Phoenix with 16 mins of ice time right from the start. If only we treated our prospects the same way.
Dude, COMPLETELY different situations.

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Old
12-05-2008, 07:20 PM
  #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pensown View Post
What about:

Pitt Receives:

TBL 1st Round Pick



TBL Receives:

Pitt 1st Round Pick
TBL 3rd Round Pick(currently owned by Pittsburgh)
TBL 5th Round Pick(currently owned by Pittsburgh)
Mark Eaton
Janne Pesosen


When Whitney returns.
No thanks, we're keeping our 1st overall pick.

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Old
12-05-2008, 07:22 PM
  #141
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Dude, COMPLETELY different situations.
Orly?

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12-05-2008, 07:24 PM
  #142
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No thanks, we're keeping our 1st overall pick.
but we'd be getting TB 1st which would be a top 5 pick most likely with what is looking like 2 generational talent type I would love that pick but I really don't see Tampa Bay being dumb enough to trade it away given the talent that is avaliable this coming draft.

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12-05-2008, 07:26 PM
  #143
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Orly?
Yes, rly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooch View Post
but we'd be getting TB 1st which would be a top 5 pick most likely with what is looking like 2 generational talent type I would love that pick but I really don't see Tampa Bay being dumb enough to trade it away given the talent that is avaliable this coming draft.
He's a TB fan.

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12-05-2008, 08:11 PM
  #144
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Yes, rly.

He's a TB fan.
Care to explain more?

I didnt realize he was a TB fan, never thought of checking where people from on these threads, I just assume we're all pittsburgh fans.

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12-05-2008, 08:56 PM
  #145
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Care to explain more?

I didnt realize he was a TB fan, never thought of checking where people from on these threads, I just assume we're all pittsburgh fans.
Janne Pesonen is 26 years old, 5-11, 180 with not a whole lot of speed to make up for it. He hadn't been discovered prior to last season for a reason. Although he definitely has offensive finesse, he's been playing overseas for a loong time, and there is an adjustment period. The penguins have one of the best resords in the east and plan on contending for a Stanley Cup THIS YEAR. the goal is not to try and fit our prspects into a lineup, it's to trow out the best forward combos possible. Obviously we have to be doing something right as our two top center are leading the league in points right now. We are not in desperate need for a shake-up of the top-6 for any reason.

Enver Lisin is a burner with clear top-6 potential. The Phoenix Coyotes are a team that is building for the future, and they had a hole that needed to be filled. Their goal is to win a cup eventually by building from within and developing their prospects and getting them ready for the NHL. Since they have nothing to lose, it's really a no-brainer that they should pick the younger guy with more promise to have the spot in their lineup than a vet.

Everything just stated was pretty much common sense. Didn't really think I was gonna have to explain that.

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12-05-2008, 09:06 PM
  #146
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Whats funny here is that Lisin was given an opportunity to succeed in Phoenix with 16 mins of ice time right from the start. If only we treated our prospects the same way.
Not quite.

He was a healthy scratch six times in his first eight games. He has also played 16 minutes twice in nine games. He has seen less than 12 minutes of action twice. In a recent game against Colorado, Lisin registered two assists, a plus-2 rating and three shots on goal in just 10:44 of ice time.

The point is, perhaps the 22-year-old Lisin is just better than any winger prospect we have right now.

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12-05-2008, 10:15 PM
  #147
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Originally Posted by PITTisIT View Post
Janne Pesonen is 26 years old, 5-11, 180 with not a whole lot of speed to make up for it. He hadn't been discovered prior to last season for a reason. Although he definitely has offensive finesse, he's been playing overseas for a loong time, and there is an adjustment period. The penguins have one of the best resords in the east and plan on contending for a Stanley Cup THIS YEAR. the goal is not to try and fit our prspects into a lineup, it's to trow out the best forward combos possible. Obviously we have to be doing something right as our two top center are leading the league in points right now. We are not in desperate need for a shake-up of the top-6 for any reason.

Enver Lisin is a burner with clear top-6 potential. The Phoenix Coyotes are a team that is building for the future, and they had a hole that needed to be filled. Their goal is to win a cup eventually by building from within and developing their prospects and getting them ready for the NHL. Since they have nothing to lose, it's really a no-brainer that they should pick the younger guy with more promise to have the spot in their lineup than a vet.

Everything just stated was pretty much common sense. Didn't really think I was gonna have to explain that.
Yeah it's real common sense to think a guy who lit up the SM-Liiga on a consistant basis has no business getting more than 5 mins of ice time, good thing you explained that.

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12-05-2008, 10:17 PM
  #148
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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
Not quite.

He was a healthy scratch six times in his first eight games. He has also played 16 minutes twice in nine games. He has seen less than 12 minutes of action twice. In a recent game against Colorado, Lisin registered two assists, a plus-2 rating and three shots on goal in just 10:44 of ice time.

The point is, perhaps the 22-year-old Lisin is just better than any winger prospect we have right now.
his ATOI is over 14 mins which is double that of Janne. I am also sure Lisin actually got to play with skilled players during that time.

I would imagine if Lisin was in our system and was put in with Godard and given 5 mins of ice time he would not be putting up any results and you would be calling him a bust.

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12-05-2008, 10:30 PM
  #149
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Originally Posted by Gooch View Post
his ATOI is over 14 mins which is double that of Janne. I am also sure Lisin actually got to play with skilled players during that time.

I would imagine if Lisin was in our system and was put in with Godard and given 5 mins of ice time he would not be putting up any results and you would be calling him a bust.
I wouldn't be calling him a bust, yet. He's 22.

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Old
12-05-2008, 10:53 PM
  #150
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isn't gary roberts a free agent next year

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