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Old
12-04-2008, 12:27 PM
  #1
Flyers5150
 
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Van-Philly

Vancouver gets:
Lupul, Jones, Giroux

Philly gets:
Bieska, Schneider


Definately value given up on both sides but I think it helps both teams out.

Philly gets a much needed goaltending prospect and a legit #2 D-man in Bieska. This would allow Philly to run with a 2nd pairing of Coburn & Carle.

Vancouver gets scoring help with the addition of Lupul a decent D-man in Jones, and a very nice winger prospect in Giroux.

Seems like a fairly even trade as it's essentially a blue chip goalie prospect for a blue chip winger prospect and lupul & jones are definately close in value to Bieska.

Thoughts?

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Old
12-04-2008, 12:32 PM
  #2
Andrew B
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hmm... interesting...

I think at the end of the day it comes down to 2 roster players for 1.

That being said, Schneider's stock has never been higher.

Not bad.

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Old
12-04-2008, 12:32 PM
  #3
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As a Flyers fan, I would do that in one half of a split ****ing second.

I think VAN would need more, though. Like Parent or Nodl more. Lupul is a nice player, but we have guys like JVR waiting for a spot to open up. Jones is a good 4/5 D-man, but Bieksa is better. Giroux is a fantastic prospect on any other team BUT the Flyers. His defensive game isn't there yet, and small fast skill guys (a.k.a. Briere) aren't as effective in our system as they are elsewhere.

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Old
12-04-2008, 12:35 PM
  #4
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Bieksa AND Schneider?!

CARTER.

(read: no.)

Lupul is far too inconsistent for us to have on the team. Jones does nothing for us, and neither does Giroux. It's a quantity trade that is honestly laughable, since you're gunning for our #1 defenseman while giving us nothing valuable in return.

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Old
12-04-2008, 12:37 PM
  #5
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no thx coach

kk

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Old
12-04-2008, 12:39 PM
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decadentia
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Personally I would definitely consider it as a Flyers fan. I can't speak from a Vancouver's point of view. But I can say that Flyers fans' reactions will be mixed. Giroux is highly touted and expected to be a core part of the Flyers future. And while Jones is a bit overpaid, he's been consistent for us. The very name Lupul brings up a stigma, in which will just create arguments. A great offensive talent, but obviously streaky.

I think you are going to see the word "overpayment" used for both sides of the coin. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

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Old
12-04-2008, 12:41 PM
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cao View Post
Bieksa AND Schneider?!

CARTER.

(read: no.)

Lupul is far too inconsistent for us to have on the team. Jones does nothing for us, and neither does Giroux. It's a quantity trade that is honestly laughable, since you're gunning for our #1 defenseman while giving us nothing valuable in return.
The mission is to be objective, the bolded sentence is anything but.

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Old
12-04-2008, 12:49 PM
  #8
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Vancouver has to get back something more substantial if they give up Bieksa AND Schneider. That's our best defenseman and our best prospect.

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Old
12-04-2008, 12:52 PM
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by decadentia View Post
The mission is to be objective, the bolded sentence is anything but.
Valuable to us.

We absolutely cannot have another inconsistent top 6 player in addition to the Sedins, Demitra, Wellwood, and Pyatt/Bernier (take your pick, they're the same player -_-). While Giroux is definitely a good prospect, we don't have any space for him up here - what's the point in letting go of Bieksa if he's of no use to us right now? Lupul and Giroux do not make up for the gap between Bieksa and Jones, much less Bieksa with Schneider.

The fact is that Bieksa is our best defenseman right now, and Schneider's value to us is as high as it will ever be. You have to up the ante if you want both of them.

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Old
12-04-2008, 12:53 PM
  #10
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Taylor Pyatt for Jeff Carter.

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Old
12-04-2008, 01:08 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cao View Post
Bieksa AND Schneider?!

CARTER.

(read: no.)

Lupul is far too inconsistent for us to have on the team. Jones does nothing for us, and neither does Giroux. It's a quantity trade that is honestly laughable, since you're gunning for our #1 defenseman while giving us nothing valuable in return.
I guess Carter and Richards are the only valuable players the Flyers have. Everyone else must just suck.

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12-04-2008, 01:12 PM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyers5150 View Post
Vancouver gets:
Lupul, Jones, Giroux

Philly gets:
Bieska, Schneider

Thoughts?
Flyers would do that. Vancouver definitely not.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cao View Post
Lupul is far too inconsistent for us to have on the team.
From a different thread I beat down the same argument before:

Quote:
Originally Posted by chaosof99 View Post
Really?

Goals per game for Joffrey Lupul:
2005-06: 28/81 = 0,3456
2006-07: 16/81 = 0,1975
2007-08: 20/56 = 0,3471
2008-09: 8/23 = 0,3478 (on pace for 28)

Except for his wretched season with the Oilers he is one of the most consistent people I've seen.

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Old
12-04-2008, 01:15 PM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snotbubbles View Post
I guess Carter and Richards are the only valuable players the Flyers have. Everyone else must just suck.


It's not just that, it's just that what Bieksa and Schneider are worth to the Canucks at the moment is probably more than you'd like to give up.


Carter and Richards being a primary example... I think the term "overpayment" is what you're going to see Vancouver Fans spouting here.


This probably would have had happened if this was still the offseason, and everyone was doubting Kevin's abilities. Not so likely anymore.


ALTHOUGH, Flyers Fans, if you're still interested in Kevin Bieksa for Jeff Carter...

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Old
12-04-2008, 01:16 PM
  #14
decadentia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chaosof99 View Post

From a different thread I beat down the same argument before:
All you've proven is that he's consistently inconsistent. It doesn't account for hot streaks etc, which is precisely where the criticism comes in for Lupul.

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Old
12-04-2008, 01:18 PM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snotbubbles View Post
I guess Carter and Richards are the only valuable players the Flyers have. Everyone else must just suck.
The thing is though Bieksa is our #1 defenceman at the moment. Brings a lot to the table, like Carter he's a player you'd have to overpay to acquire. While the trade is ok on paper it's not really what Vancouver needs (although it fills Philly's needs nicely lol).

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Old
12-04-2008, 01:23 PM
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chaosof99 View Post
Flyers would do that. Vancouver definitely not.




From a different thread I beat down the same argument before:
See, here's the thing. Tons of Vancouver fans used the same thing for the Sedins, but we all know that they go on their hot and cold streaks, which is what this type of statistical analysis fails to account for.

We REALLY don't want to have Lupul and the Sedins going on hot streaks and then completely disappearing for a few games, leaving the already inconsistent second line to do the scoring for us. Vancouver needs offense, but not just any kind of offense. If we can't get that, our defense is consistent enough to get by with (they're a huge part of our offense).

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Old
12-04-2008, 01:36 PM
  #17
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So, Bieksa is considered Vancouver's best defenseman, eh? I'm a Flyers fan and not paricularly well-versed on the Canucks, so forgive my ignorance. I thought Mitchell was considered Van's #1 d-man...and I thought a lot of people were down on Bieksa last year? I guess he's looking good this year?

As far as Lupul is concerned, I think the whole "inconsistent" thing attached to him is a little silly. He may be streaky at times, but so are most goal scorers. But I feel like people often try to point to him being inconsistent from season to season. Outside of the dreadful season in Edmonton, what is there to really talk about? He hasn't exactly been lighting the world on fire so far this season, but he's got 8 goals, which would be good for 3rd on the Canucks and he'd also be tied for 3rd in points...and he's achieved those stats in limited icetime playing mostly with Metropolit and Upshall.

I think Lupul could do a good job playing with the Sedins, but I understand that spot is already occupied by Demitra and the line is working well together, correct? Even if that is the case though, I'd think he could somehow add a nice scoring punch to Van's top-6.

Giroux is a high-end prospect, as has been mentioned...and he's coming along nicely in the AHL right now. Jones is a good two-way d-man, absolutely capable of doing a fine job on a second pairing, especially if he's paired with a solid stay-at-home guy. Should Van wanna use him on a 3rd pairing he'd be about as good as they come for 3rd pairing defenders.

Another thing...I was just noticing in looking at some of that Canucks statistics...it looks like they are in the top 5 in the West in GF, top 5 in the West in GA, and about middle of the pack in both PP and PK. Not bad at all in any area it seems. So, what is it the Canucks really need? What are they really looking for? As I recall, secondary scoring has been an issue in recent years, and perhaps it still is somewhat...but they seem to be managing to put the puck in pretty well, and I can see from the stat sheet that the Sedins are leading the team as expected, but there still seems to be a pretty good balance of production beyond those two.

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Old
12-04-2008, 01:38 PM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cao View Post
See, here's the thing. Tons of Vancouver fans used the same thing for the Sedins, but we all know that they go on their hot and cold streaks, which is what this type of statistical analysis fails to account for.

We REALLY don't want to have Lupul and the Sedins going on hot streaks and then completely disappearing for a few games, leaving the already inconsistent second line to do the scoring for us. Vancouver needs offense, but not just any kind of offense. If we can't get that, our defense is consistent enough to get by with (they're a huge part of our offense).
Well, you'll be getting a potential/likely 30 goal scorer, a good D-Man and a winger who's supposed to be a top line winger, possibly 2nd liner. I don't think it's a terrible trade but if all Van is looking for is Carter/Richards, then there's going to be no deal.

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Old
12-04-2008, 01:43 PM
  #19
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Mitchell is definitely our best shutdown defense, but Bieksa adds a great offensive side to his game. I'm not sure if you can even attach a #1 defenseman label to a defensive defenseman unless they're clearly the best in the league.

We're used to inconsistent players, but the fact is that (from what we've seen of Lupul here in Vancouver) Lupul isn't very good if he's not goal scoring. That creates a problem here because Gillis and AV are trying to build a team based on hard work, which also means being good defensively (even Wellwood is getting better, or at least not sucking, in the defensive zone).

The Canucks' biggest need is a big goal scoring centre. Which is Sundin (and also Carter ).

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrindamoursNose View Post
Well, you'll be getting a potential/likely 30 goal scorer, a good D-Man and a winger who's supposed to be a top line winger, possibly 2nd liner. I don't think it's a terrible trade but if all Van is looking for is Carter/Richards, then there's going to be no deal.
read above

Those things sound good, but at the cost of our #1 defenseman and our insurance for Luongo, it's not enough.

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Old
12-04-2008, 01:47 PM
  #20
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So what about making the trade easier.

Philly gets Schneider

Vancouver gets Giroux and a 3rd/4th in 09 or 10

Both teams deal highly touted prospects of which both are unproven. Make sense as philly has an abundance of wingers and Vancouver has goalie cover (assumes Luongo resigns). Dealing from positions of strength to cover weaknesses?

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12-04-2008, 01:47 PM
  #21
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Schneider is not being moved for anything short of a player that fits this teams needs precisely, at least until Luongo is extended.

And yes, Bieksa is our #1 defenseman. 12 points in 16 games, leads the team in icetime/game by over a minute, #2 on D in SH icetime/game, and leading the D in PP icetime/game... Jones isn't going to come CLOSE to replacing that.

Lupul has never cracked 30, and is on pace for 27 - he's not a 30 goal scorer. He could be, maybe, in the right situation, but is Vancouver that place? No.

Giroux is a prospect I'd love to have, but not at that expense.

The value isn't far off, but it does very little for Vancouver's needs.

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Old
12-04-2008, 01:50 PM
  #22
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Unless there's massive overpayment, I wouldn't expect Schneider to be moved at all until Luongo signs a contract extension.

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Old
12-04-2008, 01:53 PM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chaosof99 View Post
Flyers would do that. Vancouver definitely not.




From a different thread I beat down the same argument before:
The problem is the stats Lupul put up in Edmonton are very relevant given he would be playing in the tight-checking North-west.

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12-04-2008, 01:55 PM
  #24
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If Van gets the big goal-scoring center they'd like to have...who shifts to the wing amongst Sedin, Wellwood, and Kesler? It certainly doesn't seem appropriate for any of them to be bumped to the 4th line. And it doesn't seem you'd want any of them to go the other way either...from what I understand, you Canuck fans are pretty nuts for your Sedins and for Kesler. And isn't Wellwood producing a ton relative to a tiny cap hit?

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12-04-2008, 01:59 PM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by claude boivin lives View Post
If Van gets the big goal-scoring center they'd like to have...who shifts to the wing amongst Sedin, Wellwood, and Kesler? It certainly doesn't seem appropriate for any of them to be bumped to the 4th line. And it doesn't seem you'd want any of them to go the other way either...from what I understand, you Canuck fans are pretty nuts for your Sedins and for Kesler. And isn't Wellwood producing a ton relative to a tiny cap hit?
Wellwood would. Wellwoood produces almost all of his offense on the powerplay.

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