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DeBoer-"It's Anderson's Job"

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Old
12-05-2008, 10:55 AM
  #26
Rattrick
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoadDoggFL View Post
I don't want a guy like that to leave this team, and I can't stand all this scapegoating going on when very rarely does Vokoun let us down (after a year of hanging him out to dry we turn around and dump him off in favor of the guy he mentored?).
To be fair, Vokoun HAS let us down in nearly every game he has played this year. Now, I think he's capable of pulling it together but overall this year he's been brutal.

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Originally Posted by pb1300 View Post
And yes, I might be crazy to think that Bouw will resign here in January. But who knows because the way they are playing now, it could happen. He seems to be enjoying himself on the ice, as is the whole team.
Yes, you are crazy.

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Originally Posted by zeroG View Post
i do agree though that this type of turnaround is exactly the type of thing that could bring jay back into the fold. let's hope it continues as i can't imagine having more fun playing for another team right now - he's got all the freedom offensively to do what he wants, the team is winning and playing an exciting style, is full of good character young kids. he's got a cool young coach... what more could he want?
I think Bouw has already made up his mind. What more could he want? A consistent winning team and to get the hell out of Florida.

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12-05-2008, 11:00 AM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rattrick View Post
To be fair, Vokoun HAS let us down in nearly every game he has played this year. Now, I think he's capable of pulling it together but overall this year he's been brutal.
I don't agree with that, because a lot of it was how poorly the team played in front of him. Andy lets in soft goals, too. Our win in Anaheim was less about his strong play and more about the Ducks' forwards missing several wide open nets (not to mention the incredibly weak goal he allowed in that game). And how about Detroit?

I think I'll go back and look at the highlights of games to see how many you could actually say Tivo actually played poorly in. Fans here have a habit of taking a strong effort in a loss and forgetting about it a week later to be lumped together with the terrible performances of the year.

Right now all that really stands out for me is Vokoun should've stopped a few of Carolina's goals in the season opener. Even then, he really was hung out to dry on the ones you could still blame on him.

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12-05-2008, 11:13 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Mogo View Post
Too bad Vokoun has a NTC
the dreaded NTC coach killer

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12-05-2008, 11:22 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Bure1096 View Post
Vokoun should not be talked about in trades. Anderson will falter soon. I have my bets on the Bruins game. Anderson has played very well thus far, but in the past he hasn't shown he's capable of a full load. Tim Thomas is a long shot. I remember the Bruin fans saying they want to get rid of him or he's rubbish. But all of a sudden in the past year, they put a team on the ice that supports him. Anderson gave us a pulse. Vokoun will get things moving. Are we so blind to see that during around this time last year Vokoun was keeping us in games? The Montreal game early in the season where we STOLE a 2-1 Shootout win. He made a 45+ save performance against the red wings in a losing effort (not his fault). Then the next night playing the Blackhawks made another 45+ save performance. I was at the game and he looked stellar and calm. Get off the bandwagon that we should consider trading Vokoun.
If you want to bring up last season, what about Andy's back to back 1-0 victories, in which he set a NHL record with 93 saves in those two games combined? Which got the team going on the seven game streak. We arent talking about last year though, we are talking about this year. What about the game in Anaheim for Anderson? Or how about the one in Ottawa? Or the job he did against Detroit after Vokoun put us in a 2-0 hole? It isnt about what have you done for me last year, or over your career, its about what you can do for me now. And right now, Anderson is our #1. And it sounds like a great cat fan to say he will falter soon, with bets being on the Boston game. I dont want to see him falter at all, let alone tomorrow. I am ok with keeping the two of them, but if Andy keeps playing the way he has, then Martin should see what is available. BTW...Anderson has never had a chance to show he is capable of a "full load." This is his chance!

And since January 3rd of last year, Andy is 14-3-3, and he is 1st in save% and 4th in GAA this season. I think he is proving A LOT!


Last edited by pb1300: 12-05-2008 at 11:31 AM.
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12-05-2008, 11:25 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Rattrick View Post
To be fair, Vokoun HAS let us down in nearly every game he has played this year. Now, I think he's capable of pulling it together but overall this year he's been brutal.

Yes, you are crazy.

I think Bouw has already made up his mind. What more could he want? A consistent winning team and to get the hell out of Florida.
where is that a guarantee??? last year you would've said OTT. the previous year, maybe buffalo. who thought montreal was ready to rise to the top of the conference. or boston for that matter. the stage is set here for a decent run. with no guarantee anywhere else (but maybe detroit and NJ), why wouldn't he consider staying? i understand not like SF and if that's the case, maybe his mind is made up. if it's truly about winning, you'd have to think this turnaround could impact the decision. we'll see.

i think brutal is a stretch wrt to vokoun.

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12-05-2008, 11:36 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pb1300 View Post
If you want to bring up last season, what about Andy's back to back 1-0 victories, in which he set a NHL record with 93 saves in those two games combined? Which got the team going on the seven game streak. We arent talking about last year though, we are talking about this year. What about the game in Anaheim for Anderson? Or how about the one in Ottawa? Or the job he did against Detroit after Vokoun put us in a 2-0 hole? It isnt about what have you done for me last year, or over your career, its about what you can do for me now. And right now, Anderson is our #1. And it sounds like a great cat fan to say he will falter soon, with bets being on the Boston game. I dont want to see him falter at all, let alone tomorrow. I am ok with keeping the two of them, but if Andy keeps playing the way he has, then Martin should see what is available. BTW...Anderson has never had a chance to show he is capable of a "full load." This is his chance!

And since January 3rd of last year, Andy is 14-3-3, and he is 1st in save% and 4th in GAA this season. I think he is proving A LOT!
Great examples. I was at the Anaheim game, Andy didn't play all that great except for the end of the first. He made some great saves, but the goal he allowed was weak as hell and he gave up some wide open nets that the Ducks just Dvorak'd on.

As for the game against the Wings? You might want to check the highlights again. Andy let two goals by, including a complete rookie mistake you don't see made by middle school-aged kids. Vokoun came in and the team turned around, I think he was only beaten once on a point shot on the PP.

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12-05-2008, 11:45 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pb1300 View Post
If you want to bring up last season, what about Andy's back to back 1-0 victories, in which he set a NHL record with 93 saves in those two games combined? Which got the team going on the seven game streak. We arent talking about last year though, we are talking about this year. What about the game in Anaheim for Anderson? Or how about the one in Ottawa? Or the job he did against Detroit after Vokoun put us in a 2-0 hole? It isnt about what have you done for me last year, or over your career, its about what you can do for me now. And right now, Anderson is our #1. And it sounds like a great cat fan to say he will falter soon, with bets being on the Boston game. I dont want to see him falter at all, let alone tomorrow. I am ok with keeping the two of them, but if Andy keeps playing the way he has, then Martin should see what is available. BTW...Anderson has never had a chance to show he is capable of a "full load." This is his chance!

And since January 3rd of last year, Andy is 14-3-3, and he is 1st in save% and 4th in GAA this season. I think he is proving A LOT!

Umm Anderson was pulled after he put us in a 2-0 hole. The team came back with Vokoun and tied it up only to take a dumb penalty and Detroit scored. I think you are mistaking the fact that I see him faltering soon and that I want him to falter soon. There is a distinct difference. I never ever want a player to do badly. Especially on this team because we are on a fine line of progress or failure. I just have a feeling he's going to play like how he was in the Detroit game you brought up and got the goalies mixed up. Anderson had his chance in Chicago and flopped. He has improved but I do not see anything that would warrant him to be the no. 1 starter over Vokoun.

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12-05-2008, 12:07 PM
  #33
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I'm in the boat of keeping both players, and that Tomas will reassert himself as #1 at some point (just as Luongo did after being supplanted as starter by Jani Hurme briefly back in '02 or '03, whenever it was). We should all remember what happened when we had two solid starters back in '99 in Burke and Kidd, and Murray decided to deal Burke and replace him with Shtalenkov. By the time all was said and done we lost Dvorak in order to rent Vernon.

Vokoun is showing great leadership in accepting his demotion, and you know his intention is to grab that job back the first opportunity he has. He knows he has to be better than he's been, that the culture that accepts losing is being forcibly extinguished by DeBoer (and I must admit I'm confused as to why the previous 5 head coaches couldn't take similar steps to end it, though Martin's lackluster coaching accounts for the last 3 years). Vokoun will be the starter again, and Andy a very reliable backup who can be turned to at any time, ready to go and give a spectacular performance. It's a lucky situation for teams to have.

And, if the team doesn't want to pay Andy the big bucks, they may be able to cash him in with a trade while his value is at its highest, which is always good too. I know no one wants to deal him, but a good GM (not to say JM has earned that tag at this time) knows you do what brings maximum bang for the buck with each player - if that means trading a good backup who looks like a starter (read: Auld) to get good value on a trade, sometimes you've got to consider that instead of keeping the good backup. But only if it means improving your team such that your starter wins more games.

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12-05-2008, 12:14 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bure1096 View Post
Umm Anderson was pulled after he put us in a 2-0 hole. The team came back with Vokoun and tied it up only to take a dumb penalty and Detroit scored. I think you are mistaking the fact that I see him faltering soon and that I want him to falter soon. There is a distinct difference. I never ever want a player to do badly. Especially on this team because we are on a fine line of progress or failure. I just have a feeling he's going to play like how he was in the Detroit game you brought up and got the goalies mixed up. Anderson had his chance in Chicago and flopped. He has improved but I do not see anything that would warrant him to be the no. 1 starter over Vokoun.
I think the goal scored against Vokoun was a deflection, to boot.

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12-05-2008, 12:22 PM
  #35
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Franzen in front. Vokoun looked way better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obKGKo3DsyA

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12-05-2008, 12:40 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by RoadDoggFL View Post
I don't agree with that, because a lot of it was how poorly the team played in front of him. Andy lets in soft goals, too. Our win in Anaheim was less about his strong play and more about the Ducks' forwards missing several wide open nets (not to mention the incredibly weak goal he allowed in that game). And how about Detroit?

I think I'll go back and look at the highlights of games to see how many you could actually say Tivo actually played poorly in. Fans here have a habit of taking a strong effort in a loss and forgetting about it a week later to be lumped together with the terrible performances of the year.

Right now all that really stands out for me is Vokoun should've stopped a few of Carolina's goals in the season opener. Even then, he really was hung out to dry on the ones you could still blame on him.
I'm sorry, but I just don't see what you're saying. Vokoun has only looked good (of the games I've seen - which is most of them) in a few games. Excluding real bad teams like the Thrashers (he also looked bad in one game against them), Islanders and Tampa (who we just have their number), he's hasn't had many GOOD games this year. Hell, he has even admitted that he has to be better.

Even in some of the games we have won he has looked poor. Against Carolina he let out a horrible rebound that led to a goal.

I'm not sticking up for Anderson, but to say Vokoun has been good this year is just downright false. He's been really bad. ZeroG posted a link to the "All Disappointment Team" and Vokoun was listed as the goalie.

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Originally Posted by zeroG View Post
where is that a guarantee??? last year you would've said OTT. the previous year, maybe buffalo. who thought montreal was ready to rise to the top of the conference. or boston for that matter. the stage is set here for a decent run. with no guarantee anywhere else (but maybe detroit and NJ), why wouldn't he consider staying? i understand not like SF and if that's the case, maybe his mind is made up. if it's truly about winning, you'd have to think this turnaround could impact the decision. we'll see.

i think brutal is a stretch wrt to vokoun.
Well, lets see -- nearly every other team in the NHL has had more winning seasons than us since he's been on the team. As far as consistent winners, you've still got teams like San Jose, Anaheim, New York, Minnesota, etc. that make the playoffs regularly.

Now, I've said it before, but the same thing happened last year and Vokoun came back and played his best hockey of the year. If that happens, we are in great shape! Lets all hope it does because we'll need him to get back to where we expect him to be.

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12-05-2008, 12:42 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Race against NINE View Post
I'm in the boat of keeping both players, and that Tomas will reassert himself as #1 at some point (just as Luongo did after being supplanted as starter by Jani Hurme briefly back in '02 or '03, whenever it was). We should all remember what happened when we had two solid starters back in '99 in Burke and Kidd, and Murray decided to deal Burke and replace him with Shtalenkov. By the time all was said and done we lost Dvorak in order to rent Vernon.

Vokoun is showing great leadership in accepting his demotion, and you know his intention is to grab that job back the first opportunity he has. He knows he has to be better than he's been, that the culture that accepts losing is being forcibly extinguished by DeBoer (and I must admit I'm confused as to why the previous 5 head coaches couldn't take similar steps to end it, though Martin's lackluster coaching accounts for the last 3 years). Vokoun will be the starter again, and Andy a very reliable backup who can be turned to at any time, ready to go and give a spectacular performance. It's a lucky situation for teams to have.

And, if the team doesn't want to pay Andy the big bucks, they may be able to cash him in with a trade while his value is at its highest, which is always good too. I know no one wants to deal him, but a good GM (not to say JM has earned that tag at this time) knows you do what brings maximum bang for the buck with each player - if that means trading a good backup who looks like a starter (read: Auld) to get good value on a trade, sometimes you've got to consider that instead of keeping the good backup. But only if it means improving your team such that your starter wins more games.
you started so strong, race! JM would be winning with this group right now, even if they were playing a slightly less aggressive forecheck system. it has a lot less to do with coaching than some think. i'll continue to stand by the opinion that this turn around has as much to do with the environment that JM's been building the past 3 years as it does with PDB. would love to hear what PDB and JM *really* think about it but that's probably impossible.

i do (obviously) agree with your first comments and the example of burke/kidd debacle is one we should all be holding in our minds right now.

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12-05-2008, 01:52 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeroG View Post
you started so strong, race! JM would be winning with this group right now, even if they were playing a slightly less aggressive forecheck system. it has a lot less to do with coaching than some think. i'll continue to stand by the opinion that this turn around has as much to do with the environment that JM's been building the past 3 years as it does with PDB. would love to hear what PDB and JM *really* think about it but that's probably impossible.

i do (obviously) agree with your first comments and the example of burke/kidd debacle is one we should all be holding in our minds right now.
I don't get you sometimes. This winning has everything to do with coaching. Last night a Jacques Martin team would have sat on the 1 goal lead and tried to wait it out. This team stayed aggressive and were rewarded for it.

Last year, Jaybo wouldn't have rushed up ice like he did, which lead to the first goal.

Coaching has everything to do with this teams success, just look at the roster. The only way a team with this kind of roster can win like it is right is through great coaching. DeBoer is getting through to these guys like no one has before, and if YOU can't see that, I'm going to have to start questioning your hockey knowledge, much like you have been doing to others on these boards.

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12-05-2008, 02:11 PM
  #39
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I don't get you sometimes. This winning has everything to do with coaching. Last night a Jacques Martin team would have sat on the 1 goal lead and tried to wait it out. This team stayed aggressive and were rewarded for it.

Last year, Jaybo wouldn't have rushed up ice like he did, which lead to the first goal.

Coaching has everything to do with this teams success, just look at the roster. The only way a team with this kind of roster can win like it is right is through great coaching. DeBoer is getting through to these guys like no one has before, and if YOU can't see that, I'm going to have to start questioning your hockey knowledge, much like you have been doing to others on these boards.
i think you are utterly and completely wrong! i say that with all due respect, of course coaching doesn't win the key battles on the boards. coaching doesn't make crisp breakout passes to jumpstart transition. there IS talent on this roster, it's just all fairly raw right now. the most surefire way for this roster to win is by buckling its chinstrap and going out and winning battles. heck, listen to deboer's interview from last night where he jokes that coaching is difference. he was talking about campbell specifically but he was clearly deflecting any credit for the dramatic improvement there and, by extension (imo) the team. JM's team went on streaks and played very well. he just wasn't able to turnaround the roster quick enough to save his own coaching job. olli was probably the key person that needed to go and it took the drama of last year to convince cohen to part with him. JM was also doing a lot of the same things with the kids last year and some of it was working. he talked about allowing them to work through mistakes, something PDB has stressed as well. he just didn't have anybody capable of making an impact coming up from rochester. when his team was healthy, it ran off a nice long win streak.

and for crying out loud, can we give this "JM coached his team to sit back" stuff a break? he preached a fairly aggressive forecheck and when the team executed it, they won. the sitting back you perceived (and was there) was more a result of a lack of experience and confidence AND the fact that we didn't have the caliber of defenders we have now.

lastly, jay certainly did rush the puck last year. remember, he did score 15 goals and they weren't coming from his booming shot from the point. i wont argue that the D seems to have been given more leeway this year but to suggest that JM had jay on a leash is a little crazy.

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12-05-2008, 02:14 PM
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So, in your opinion, would the team be playing the same way with any coach?

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12-05-2008, 02:21 PM
  #41
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Well, lets see -- nearly every other team in the NHL has had more winning seasons than us since he's been on the team. As far as consistent winners, you've still got teams like San Jose, Anaheim, New York, Minnesota, etc. that make the playoffs regularly.

Now, I've said it before, but the same thing happened last year and Vokoun came back and played his best hockey of the year. If that happens, we are in great shape! Lets all hope it does because we'll need him to get back to where we expect him to be.
new york went through a stretch where they missed the playoffs for something like 5 straight years. even with some success last year, it was hard to say they totally righted the ship. anaheim was a joke until a few years ago. they probably have a decent pipeline right now but with new management coming in, there's no guarantee they'll remain on top. the sharks have been good the last 8 years, though they did miss the playoffs one year in there. still, they've never been past the conference finals. i'd take that for sure but it's not necessarily hockey nirvana. think jay would like minnesota? talk about a short leash

i'm just saying, it's not as much of a no-brainer as it seems, especially if this team continues to come together.

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12-05-2008, 02:29 PM
  #42
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So, in your opinion, would the team be playing the same way with any coach?
no, not at all. a part of this play were seeing is surely a credit to PDB's personal style, his organization skills and ability to coach the players. there are certainly guys who wouldn't be able to come in and get the respect of the room and/or train the players' focus on the right elements.

let's also keep in mind that PDB has a lot of work in front of him regarding the injured guys who are coming back. that really could take the team down. i have faith he'll manage it well, tho.

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12-05-2008, 02:32 PM
  #43
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Great examples. I was at the Anaheim game, Andy didn't play all that great except for the end of the first. He made some great saves, but the goal he allowed was weak as hell and he gave up some wide open nets that the Ducks just Dvorak'd on.

As for the game against the Wings? You might want to check the highlights again. Andy let two goals by, including a complete rookie mistake you don't see made by middle school-aged kids. Vokoun came in and the team turned around, I think he was only beaten once on a point shot on the PP.
My mistake, it was the Devils game I was referring to. Regardless, I think its Andy's job until he has a bad game, or until the home-and-home against the Bolts towards the end of the month, where I think Vokoun will get one of the two games.

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12-05-2008, 02:50 PM
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DeBoer has gotten Campbell playing well, back to his junior days where he led his team to the Memorial Cup. Campbell has skill, and his confidence is huge right now. I hope he continues this pace or something similar, and I could see it happening with Pete's system. His offensive awareness is sky high right now.

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12-05-2008, 02:57 PM
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One example of the bold part: Brian Boucher

exactly
Bucher is a great goalie and has shown he can carry the load as he played better for SJ then Nabakov has this year. But, you don't see SJ trading Nabakov because of that.

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12-05-2008, 03:18 PM
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Bucher is a great goalie and has shown he can carry the load as he played better for SJ then Nabakov has this year. But, you don't see SJ trading Nabakov because of that.
To go against what you said, I think Nabakov is a better goaltender than Vokoun.

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12-05-2008, 03:56 PM
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I think most of you are thinking too short-term. Anderson is a UFA next year, just like J-bouw. We don't know what his intentions are. We know he likes the situation here but I am sure his recent play has not decreased the interest in signing him. So, with that in mind, does anyone still suggest trading T-Vo for Gerber with the possibility of a goaltending tandem of Gerber/Shantz/Plante next year? I mean, it's not going to happen. If anything, we wait until the offseason to trade Vokoun. If that happens we can see how Andy feels about resigning and at that point, also go out and either sign or trade for a real backup, not Gerber.

Keep T-Vo for the rest of the season. Case closed.

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12-05-2008, 04:01 PM
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To comment on the goaltenders' abilities I'd like to say that Vokoun is probably more technically gifted than Andy but the latter has a better mental game. As in the Anaheim game, he let up a terrible early goal and then shut the door for 40 something saves. That's the way he plays, he puts the past behind him. I like that in a goaltender. Now, in contrast, we have seen Vokoun have games where he gives up 4 goals on 10 shots, name any Raleigh game last year, just kidding, but not really. If Andy can maintain this sort of play, he will become one of the best goaltenders in the league.

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12-05-2008, 04:49 PM
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Vokoun has looked slow this year. He is getting beat too easily on weak shots, his 5 hole has been subpar. He had flashes of this last season, but usually managed to get his game back in shape. However, this season he has played like this practically every game.

IMO, Vokoun appears to be losing his edge, trending downwards. I think we should trade him before we get stuck with a 6M backup, while he might still have value. I could be wrong, but I'd rather give up a guy too early than too late.

Give Anderson his shot, he certainly deserves it. If he fails to prove he can start by himself, then there are several stop gap tandem solutions (thomas, khabibulin, garon, clemmenson, valiquette, biron, tellqvist, niitymaki, sanford, etc) we can explore until Markstrom is ready. Or try to pry a backup away from another team (such as harding if minnesota gives backstrom alot of cash).

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12-05-2008, 04:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beezer View Post
Bucher is a great goalie and has shown he can carry the load as he played better for SJ then Nabakov has this year. But, you don't see SJ trading Nabakov because of that.
Boucher has been one of the most erratic goalies I have ever seen. Carried the Flyers his rookie year in the playoffs, then blew his job and got traded to phoenix, sets the shut out record, completely stinks it up in calgary, gets his game back on track in SJ.

Tim Thomas is probably a better comparable, as both he and Anderson spent a while in the minors before getting their shot, while Boucher was a 1st rounder that has been inconsistent. Hedberg's career path is another comparable on the more pessimistic side.

Nabokov is coming off what should have been a vezina season, and won't hamper the team with a long term deal if he does start to decline.

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