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Old
12-05-2008, 05:01 PM
  #51
StrangeVision
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Originally Posted by RCGP View Post
Vokoun has looked slow this year. He is getting beat too easily on weak shots, his 5 hole has been subpar. He had flashes of this last season, but usually managed to get his game back in shape. However, this season he has played like this practically every game.

IMO, Vokoun appears to be losing his edge, trending downwards. I think we should trade him before we get stuck with a 6M backup, while he might still have value. I could be wrong, but I'd rather give up a guy too early than too late.

Give Anderson his shot, he certainly deserves it. If he fails to prove he can start by himself, then there are several stop gap tandem solutions (thomas, khabibulin, garon, clemmenson, valiquette, biron, tellqvist, niitymaki, sanford, etc) we can explore until Markstrom is ready. Or try to pry a backup away from another team (such as harding if minnesota gives backstrom alot of cash).
Ok, so trade Vokoun for hopefully a damn good player, and then if Anderson falters, trade more of the team for another goalie who most likely won't be a starter, either. Yeah, that makes sense.

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12-05-2008, 05:11 PM
  #52
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Ok, so trade Vokoun for hopefully a damn good player, and then if Anderson falters, trade more of the team for another goalie who most likely won't be a starter, either. Yeah, that makes sense.
Or keep Vokoun, watch him decline to have zero trade value and have a 5.7M backup for 3 years.

All those guys listed were UFAs, the only trade scenario I had was Harding, who does have starting potential but has gotten lost behind Backstrom this year after splitting with him last year.

We finished out of the playoffs last year WITH Vokoun playing well. The Anderson thing is a gamble. If it is sucessful we save alot of money and maximize our assets, if it fails we miss the playoffs, which we did with Vokoun anyways.

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12-05-2008, 05:40 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by RCGP View Post
Or keep Vokoun, watch him decline to have zero trade value and have a 5.7M backup for 3 years.

All those guys listed were UFAs, the only trade scenario I had was Harding, who does have starting potential but has gotten lost behind Backstrom this year after splitting with him last year.

We finished out of the playoffs last year WITH Vokoun playing well. The Anderson thing is a gamble. If it is sucessful we save alot of money and maximize our assets, if it fails we miss the playoffs, which we did with Vokoun anyways.
I'd say that chances of Vokoun failing is much lower than the alternative. We missed the playoffs last year with Vokoun playing great and the rest of the team playing pretty bad. Vokoun isn't going to magically turn into a backup caliber goaltender over one off-season. And, don't forget that Anderson is also a UFA. The risk of keeping Vokoun is just simply the "risk" that makes most sense.

And, who do we trade Vokoun for?

What do we do for the rest of the year if Anderson is proven incapable of handling a starter's load? Do we trade Vokoun for another goalie, thereby lowering the talent of any other player coming back? What if those UFA goalies you listed sign contracts with their current teams before they reach free agency?

The only time I see trading Vokoun as a good idea is if they planned to completely rebuild the team. Otherwise, there is simply no reason to risk it.

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12-05-2008, 05:57 PM
  #54
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There's a "reason to risk it" if the return is the long-locked up Spezza, or someone like him. As I've said before, though, the only way you ship Vokoun is if a guy like Halak is on the way as well. T-Vo simply can't go unless there's an insurance policy.

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12-05-2008, 06:33 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by johano90 View Post
To comment on the goaltenders' abilities I'd like to say that Vokoun is probably more technically gifted than Andy but the latter has a better mental game. As in the Anaheim game, he let up a terrible early goal and then shut the door for 40 something saves. That's the way he plays, he puts the past behind him. I like that in a goaltender. Now, in contrast, we have seen Vokoun have games where he gives up 4 goals on 10 shots, name any Raleigh game last year, just kidding, but not really. If Andy can maintain this sort of play, he will become one of the best goaltenders in the league.
Again, Andy didn't shut the door in Anaheim. He left it wide open on multiple occasions.

People here have a terrible habit of forgetting the performances players had after the fact. They see the box score and fill in the blanks for themselves.

If Andy was in net for the opener, nobody cares two months later. But it was Vokoun, so he's blamed for Whitney waltzing into the slot completely uncontested. Just saying that you guys should take of your rose-colored glasses when looking at Anderson's play. He's been great, but not as great (and Vokoun hasn't been as terrible) as some of you seem to remember.

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12-05-2008, 06:38 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by RoadDoggFL View Post
Again, Andy didn't shut the door in Anaheim. He left it wide open on multiple occasions.

People here have a terrible habit of forgetting the performances players had after the fact. They see the box score and fill in the blanks for themselves.

If Andy was in net for the opener, nobody cares two months later. But it was Vokoun, so he's blamed for Whitney waltzing into the slot completely uncontested. Just saying that you guys should take of your rose-colored glasses when looking at Anderson's play. He's been great, but not as great (and Vokoun hasn't been as terrible) as some of you seem to remember.
Rose-colored glasses? While Andy's looked shaky at times, he's earned the praise he's getting. Sorry that you don't feel that way, but he has, he's been a lot more stellar than you're giving him credit for.

So far as Vokoun, he's struggled quite a bit and let in some weak goals. Problem with him is that when he was on, the team was off, when he was off, the team was on.

Seems to me many of us seem to remember pretty accurately in terms of the goalies, what some tend to forget (if that's what you choose to call it) is the team's paly in front of the various netminders.

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12-05-2008, 06:39 PM
  #57
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The team has great chemistry right now. The team is winning. We have one of the NHL's best goaltending tandems. We have (on paper) one of the NHL's best bluelines (and they are starting to play like it). The forwards are playing a gritty, attacking style and putting the puck in the net.

You want to mess with that? What the hell is wrong with you people?

IF Vokoun is as bad as some of you think (he's not), he will have no trade value. If he's a streaky All Star level goaltender who can steal games (he is - and they don't grow on trees), you hold on to him.

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12-05-2008, 07:01 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by angry_treefrog View Post
The team has great chemistry right now. The team is winning. We have one of the NHL's best goaltending tandems. We have (on paper) one of the NHL's best bluelines (and they are starting to play like it). The forwards are playing a gritty, attacking style and putting the puck in the net.

You want to mess with that? What the hell is wrong with you people?

IF Vokoun is as bad as some of you think (he's not), he will have no trade value. If he's a streaky All Star level goaltender who can steal games (he is - and they don't grow on trees), you hold on to him.
Should we keep Vokoun? Sure Andy is hot right now but he has not yet proven for a full season he can be a number 1 goalie. I love Andy and agree he needs to continue to be our number 1 until he cools off. Vokoun you can bet is PO and itching to get another chance back in net to prove himself. Sure he has played badly this season allowing soft goals in almost every start I still don't believe we should trade him. He proved last year he could bounce back from his slow start to the season and I have to believe he can still help this team with his play.

Can someone add a poll in this thread so we can vote "yes to keep T-vo" or "no to trade him"?

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12-05-2008, 07:26 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
Rose-colored glasses? While Andy's looked shaky at times, he's earned the praise he's getting. Sorry that you don't feel that way, but he has, he's been a lot more stellar than you're giving him credit for.

So far as Vokoun, he's struggled quite a bit and let in some weak goals. Problem with him is that when he was on, the team was off, when he was off, the team was on.

Seems to me many of us seem to remember pretty accurately in terms of the goalies, what some tend to forget (if that's what you choose to call it) is the team's paly in front of the various netminders.
I disagree, because of comments like people thinking Andy was lights out in Anaheim. That "only wins matter" attitude has some merit because of chemistry, and if the team's better with Andy in net then we should stick with him. But that mentality would also see a straight up trade of Andy for Osgood (age aside) as a steal. I can't agree with that.

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12-05-2008, 08:05 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by RoadDoggFL View Post
Again, Andy didn't shut the door in Anaheim. He left it wide open on multiple occasions.

People here have a terrible habit of forgetting the performances players had after the fact. They see the box score and fill in the blanks for themselves.

If Andy was in net for the opener, nobody cares two months later. But it was Vokoun, so he's blamed for Whitney waltzing into the slot completely uncontested. Just saying that you guys should take of your rose-colored glasses when looking at Anderson's play. He's been great, but not as great (and Vokoun hasn't been as terrible) as some of you seem to remember.
No, Vokoun is to blame for two rebounds that went far out and right on Canes sticks.

Talk about people forgetting about a player's performance.

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12-05-2008, 08:29 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Rattrick View Post
No, Vokoun is to blame for two rebounds that went far out and right on Canes sticks.

Talk about people forgetting about a player's performance.
I said he lost us the game in the GDT. But it's not like the goals were all his fault. I used that game as an example because you don't see any finger pointing when Andy lets a goal like the Whitney one by. Wasn't he beaten by a straight up, unscreened shot from the circle in OT against the Rangers (scratch that, guess it was the Devils)?

And somebody recently blamed Vokoun for allowing a goal on a deflected centering pass. He either plays the far pass like he should've or hopes a flukey bounce like that happens and leaves the far more likely shot completely unguarded.

People here are looking for things to hate about his game.


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12-05-2008, 09:46 PM
  #62
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And I love that people here want to ship half of it away.
When this team was struggling I didn't think it was such a bad idea to trade Vokoun. My thinking was when the team isn't getting any offensive production, why hold onto a 32 year old goalie making as much as he makes when you have a very solid backup in Andy. The Panthers don't have very much value to trade away and to me Vokoun is a chip that has value and at the same time can afford to be moved by the Panthers in order to get scoring. Obviously another goalie would have had to come back as well to backup Andy. However, I don't feel that they should trade him if they continue to play like they have of late. They are not desperate for scoring right now and don't HAVE to make a move. They can afford to have the luxury of having two good goalies.

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12-05-2008, 09:52 PM
  #63
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We should be taking the opportunity to enjoy Anderson's play, not cry about Vokoun's situation. We're not going to win the next 57 games. Vokoun's going to get his chance to show us whether he's still got it or not. Some of you seem to be taking this more seriously than Vokoun himself is. Just relax and be happy that our backup (whomever that is at this point) is capable of winning a significant number of games.

Now is not the time to trade players and rip apart the locker room. Now is the time to let the team continue to gel and get guys healthy again.

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12-06-2008, 08:25 AM
  #64
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I said he lost us the game in the GDT. But it's not like the goals were all his fault. I used that game as an example because you don't see any finger pointing when Andy lets a goal like the Whitney one by. Wasn't he beaten by a straight up, unscreened shot from the circle in OT against the Rangers (scratch that, guess it was the Devils)?

And somebody recently blamed Vokoun for allowing a goal on a deflected centering pass. He either plays the far pass like he should've or hopes a flukey bounce like that happens and leaves the far more likely shot completely unguarded.

People here are looking for things to hate about his game.
Well, I was just alluding to those instances in order to prove my point. I think Anderson is mentally stronger. After he lets up a bad goal he can put it behind him, as in Anaheim. Vokoun tends to be on a slippery slope after one or two quick ones. And sure, we got lucky a couple of times in that Anaheim game, but ultimately, he saved 47 something pucks and only gave up that early stinker. It's results that matter, not a solid performance and then a loss.

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12-06-2008, 09:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johano90 View Post
Well, I was just alluding to those instances in order to prove my point. I think Anderson is mentally stronger. After he lets up a bad goal he can put it behind him, as in Anaheim. Vokoun tends to be on a slippery slope after one or two quick ones. And sure, we got lucky a couple of times in that Anaheim game, but ultimately, he saved 47 something pucks and only gave up that early stinker. It's results that matter, not a solid performance and then a loss.
Not when evaluating individual performances. Granted, chemistry factors in favor of the "results matter" mentality, but the Florida Vokouns didn't lose all those games and the Florida Andersons didn't win them all. There's more at play that factors into the final decision, so it's foolish to imply that a single player playing one position is the only deciding factor.

Now, I'm in no way going to argue that Tivo doesn't get shaken up more easily than Anderson, and that's something that just doesn't make sense to me. All personal accounts portray him as a very mentally strong player, but his performance just doesn't back that up. Anyway, none of this really affects much, and unless you're calling for Tivo to be traded away, I don't think we really disagree on anything significant. I'm all for playing Andy while he's hot, as long as Tivo still gets a chance to earn his spot back and they can feed off each other for the rest of the season.

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12-06-2008, 09:09 AM
  #66
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Well, I was just alluding to those instances in order to prove my point. I think Anderson is mentally stronger. After he lets up a bad goal he can put it behind him, as in Anaheim. Vokoun tends to be on a slippery slope after one or two quick ones. And sure, we got lucky a couple of times in that Anaheim game, but ultimately, he saved 47 something pucks and only gave up that early stinker. It's results that matter, not a solid performance and then a loss.
that's not at all the reputation he arrived here with. quite the opposite actually, iirc. and though he hasn't played particularly well this year, i wouldn't call his performances "collapses". i certainly remember games last year where he let in a weak goal but came back to finish strong.

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12-06-2008, 10:25 AM
  #67
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Goalies get hot and cold. Anderson's simply hot right now and TiVo's cold. That could change at any time.

Trading Vokoun (a proven starter), just because he's on a cold streak, would be foolish.

It's more a problem of this team getting lazier when the starter's in net. It dates back to Louie being here. We always play stronger in front of a backup.

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12-07-2008, 01:04 PM
  #68
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Anderson starting in Ottawa tomorrow night as per GR blog. McArdle and Sprukts sent back to Rochester. So either Booth, Stillman, Horton or back or possibly a trade in the works? or maybe they will just get recalled tomorrow.

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12-09-2008, 07:21 PM
  #69
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I'd say that chances of Vokoun failing is much lower than the alternative. We missed the playoffs last year with Vokoun playing great and the rest of the team playing pretty bad. Vokoun isn't going to magically turn into a backup caliber goaltender over one off-season. And, don't forget that Anderson is also a UFA. The risk of keeping Vokoun is just simply the "risk" that makes most sense.

And, who do we trade Vokoun for?

What do we do for the rest of the year if Anderson is proven incapable of handling a starter's load? Do we trade Vokoun for another goalie, thereby lowering the talent of any other player coming back? What if those UFA goalies you listed sign contracts with their current teams before they reach free agency?

The only time I see trading Vokoun as a good idea is if they planned to completely rebuild the team. Otherwise, there is simply no reason to risk it.
Its not magic, he's getting older. He had lapses in play last year that were warning signs, and this season he has been completely off his game. Most goalies don't get old at 32, but its not completely unreasonable for it to happen.

Anderson is a UFA but he will likely stay if we give him a starting/tandem job. There are quite a few UFA goalies that would compliment Anderson as previously pointed out. Yes, some will re-sign, but not all, and many would rather be in an opportunity where they could get more playing time.

Trade for Vokoun for the best value you can.

This plan gives us cap flexibility to improve the forwards. Maximizes our assets.

The team gave up alot for Vokoun and paid him alot of money, but the team shouldn't let that effect the current evaluation of the players and move forward. Or we can just keep trying the same thing over and over and hoping that we somehow get a different result.

BTW, Nashville played out this exact scenario already with Vokoun. They traded him and let Mason start, had Ellis as a safety option. Now Ellis is holding fort until Rinne/Pickard is ready to be the starter. They saved a bunch of money, got a bunch of good draft picks, and still had solid goaltending. The only difference is that Nashville cut salary to simply save money to sell the team, here this is done with the idea that the money saved would be re invested in the team.

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12-09-2008, 07:29 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by RCGP View Post
Its not magic, he's getting older. He had lapses in play last year that were warning signs, and this season he has been completely off his game. Most goalies don't get old at 32, but its not completely unreasonable for it to happen.

Anderson is a UFA but he will likely stay if we give him a starting/tandem job. There are quite a few UFA goalies that would compliment Anderson as previously pointed out. Yes, some will re-sign, but not all, and many would rather be in an opportunity where they could get more playing time.

Trade for Vokoun for the best value you can.

This plan gives us cap flexibility to improve the forwards. Maximizes our assets.

The team gave up alot for Vokoun and paid him alot of money, but the team shouldn't let that effect the current evaluation of the players and move forward. Or we can just keep trying the same thing over and over and hoping that we somehow get a different result.

BTW, Nashville played out this exact scenario already with Vokoun. They traded him and let Mason start, had Ellis as a safety option. Now Ellis is holding fort until Rinne/Pickard is ready to be the starter. They saved a bunch of money, got a bunch of good draft picks, and still had solid goaltending. The only difference is that Nashville cut salary to simply save money to sell the team, here this is done with the idea that the money saved would be re invested in the team.
This is all assuming that we know that Anderson can handle the starter's load over a full season, which we don't yet. Tvo will not and should not be traded until we see a lot more of Anderson. He looked pretty shaky for the first two periods last night, some chinks in the armor may already be showing. Fortunately he turned it around in the 3rd and OT.

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12-09-2008, 09:53 PM
  #71
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I highly doubt Vokoun is going to go from arguably the best goalie in the league last year to a goalie less capable than Anderson.

And, regarding the Vokoun trade, Nashville ownership was up in the air and they were shedding salary. If they didn't have to get rid of salary, Vokoun would still be in Nashville.


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12-09-2008, 10:08 PM
  #72
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I highly doubt Vokoun is going to go from arguably the best goalie in the league last year to a goalie less capable of Anderson.

And, regarding the Vokoun trade, Nashville ownership was up in the air and they were shedding salary. If they didn't have to get rid of salary, Vokoun would still be in Nashville.
yes, and how'd mason work out that first year he was given the full load? i didn't follow terribly closely but i know he struggled. ended up with a 2.90 GAA and .898 SP. and now he's gone. not a great example, if you ask me.

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12-10-2008, 06:20 AM
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yes, and how'd mason work out that first year he was given the full load? i didn't follow terribly closely but i know he struggled. ended up with a 2.90 GAA and .898 SP. and now he's gone. not a great example, if you ask me.
Well the season before Vokuon got traded, Mason was basically splitting time with him because IIRC Vokuon was injured. Then that following season he split time with Dan Ellis, Mason won 18 games starting 51 and Ellis won 23 starting 44, while that team made the playoffs. And part of the reason Mason isnt still there is because of his salary ($3m) and Nashville having the cheaper option in Rinne.

One thing that this brought up is to take into consideration Vokuon's injury history. While he's been relatively healthy since coming to FL, its still got to be a concern looking towards the future. Trading Vokuon while he's healthy and you can get good value for him, may be a better option. Again, I dont see many advocating to trade him now. Maybe in the offseason when you've had a full yr of what Anderson did and decide whether you can/want/able to sign another goalie to split with him or not.

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12-10-2008, 07:07 AM
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One thing that this brought up is to take into consideration Vokuon's injury history. While he's been relatively healthy since coming to FL, its still got to be a concern looking towards the future. Trading Vokuon while he's healthy and you can get good value for him, may be a better option. Again, I dont see many advocating to trade him now. Maybe in the offseason when you've had a full yr of what Anderson did and decide whether you can/want/able to sign another goalie to split with him or not.
Realistically, unless a better option presents itself, the Panthers should hold onto Vokoun until Markstrom is ready to come over to the NHL. Then keep Anderson (have to resign him this year, correct?) and trade Vokoun if he's still under contract. Let Andy be the starter and let Markstrom try to win it away from him. If that happens as we all hope, we'll have a young high-end talent as starter and a solid veteran backup who's amenable and well-adjusted to the supporting role. Plus you don't have to overwork your starter since the backup is capable.

Andy's contract then becomes the only issue - as long as he's still priced as a backup, which even if he's around $1.5-$2M a season I think it'd be a good investment for a virtual 1a-1b situation (expect Markstrom to make the rookie max for three seasons and then it'll depend upon performance whether he's making $6M/season or is just released). Meanwhile, keep sparing at least one pick per draft for a credible goalie prospect. With Plante and Shantz falling through, the team's down to just three goalie prospects. Foster may be able to make it as an AHL starter/NHL backup (maybe), but I don't expect much from the other one whose name I can never recall (playing for Colorado College?). The team needs to keep finding prospects for this area since the success rate for NHL goalies is very low.

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12-10-2008, 07:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coolburn View Post
Well the season before Vokuon got traded, Mason was basically splitting time with him because IIRC Vokuon was injured. Then that following season he split time with Dan Ellis, Mason won 18 games starting 51 and Ellis won 23 starting 44, while that team made the playoffs. And part of the reason Mason isnt still there is because of his salary ($3m) and Nashville having the cheaper option in Rinne.

One thing that this brought up is to take into consideration Vokuon's injury history. While he's been relatively healthy since coming to FL, its still got to be a concern looking towards the future. Trading Vokuon while he's healthy and you can get good value for him, may be a better option. Again, I dont see many advocating to trade him now. Maybe in the offseason when you've had a full yr of what Anderson did and decide whether you can/want/able to sign another goalie to split with him or not.
I think that might be the right way to do this. This team needs some scoring help, but maybe the return of Booth, Horton, Stillman, and Zednik can ease that till the offseason. Then, you gain some money with some expiring contracts, which you can use to sign a forward and a backup to Andy, and use Vokoun to add some more scoring up front.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Race against NINE View Post
Realistically, unless a better option presents itself, the Panthers should hold onto Vokoun until Markstrom is ready to come over to the NHL. Then keep Anderson (have to resign him this year, correct?) and trade Vokoun if he's still under contract. Let Andy be the starter and let Markstrom try to win it away from him. If that happens as we all hope, we'll have a young high-end talent as starter and a solid veteran backup who's amenable and well-adjusted to the supporting role. Plus you don't have to overwork your starter since the backup is capable.

Andy's contract then becomes the only issue - as long as he's still priced as a backup, which even if he's around $1.5-$2M a season I think it'd be a good investment for a virtual 1a-1b situation (expect Markstrom to make the rookie max for three seasons and then it'll depend upon performance whether he's making $6M/season or is just released). Meanwhile, keep sparing at least one pick per draft for a credible goalie prospect. With Plante and Shantz falling through, the team's down to just three goalie prospects. Foster may be able to make it as an AHL starter/NHL backup (maybe), but I don't expect much from the other one whose name I can never recall (playing for Colorado College?). The team needs to keep finding prospects for this area since the success rate for NHL goalies is very low.
I cant see this team committing $8 million dollars to two goaltenders. One of the two will be gone by the draft, and its going to come down to who plays the best from now until the end of the year. If Vokoun is voted off the island, I can see him being moved come draft day for a player and a pick. There are several capable backups available in the offseason, and by signing one of them, the total salary will still probably be less than Vokoun's alone.

Id would rather have an additional pick, a top six forward, Andy and Roloson, for example, here, and have Markstrom brought up slowly, than having Vokoun here and Andy prove it elsewhere. I think that ridding ourselves of Vokoun, and more importantly, his salary, can really help this team in other areas.

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