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Old
12-10-2008, 07:53 AM
  #76
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Yes, and it'll be nice to get rid of a player with the drive Vokoun does. Hate to see him rubbing off on our backup any longer than he has to.

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12-10-2008, 08:44 AM
  #77
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One thing that nobody is mentioning is that Andy is going to want to try to be a starter next year. I don't think we'll be able to sign him cheap to be a backup next year because in his mind (and rightfully so), he's shown that he can be a starter.

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12-10-2008, 09:03 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by pb1300 View Post
Id would rather have an additional pick, a top six forward, Andy and Roloson, for example, here, and have Markstrom brought up slowly, than having Vokoun here and Andy prove it elsewhere. I think that ridding ourselves of Vokoun, and more importantly, his salary, can really help this team in other areas.
I actually agree that the best short term solution if it's clear we can't have both goalies is to keep Anderson and get value for Vokoun (moreover while he's still under a decent contract).

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12-10-2008, 09:16 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Race against NINE View Post
I actually agree that the best short term solution if it's clear we can't have both goalies is to keep Anderson and get value for Vokoun (moreover while he's still under a decent contract).
Getting closer to the Dark Side every day. And Remember, we have Anderson because Mike Keenan traded a lowly sixth round draft pick to Chicago for him.

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12-10-2008, 09:23 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by pb1300 View Post

I cant see this team committing $8 million dollars to two goaltenders. One of the two will be gone by the draft, and its going to come down to who plays the best from now until the end of the year. If Vokoun is voted off the island, I can see him being moved come draft day for a player and a pick. There are several capable backups available in the offseason, and by signing one of them, the total salary will still probably be less than Vokoun's alone.
99% agree. The 1% disagree is I would invest no more than $4 mil at the goalie position. Two $2mil goalies in tandem is the ideal until and unless the team is one elite goalie away from the Stanley Cup. That should be the last piece acquired, not the first, in that quest.

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12-10-2008, 09:24 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Georgia Panther View Post
Getting closer to the Dark Side every day. And Remember, we have Anderson because Mike Keenan traded a lowly sixth round draft pick to Chicago for him.
Yea, and the OTHER time he traded a 6th, he somehow ADDED it to an already horrible trade that involved one "best goalie in the NHL".

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12-10-2008, 09:26 AM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Georgia Panther View Post
99% agree. The 1% disagree is I would invest no more than $4 mil at the goalie position. Two $2mil goalies in tandem is the ideal until and unless the team is one elite goalie away from the Stanley Cup. That should be the last piece acquired, not the first, in that quest.
Well, you're probably the only person who actually thinks that way. Every team knows you have to build from the net out.

I guess in baseball, you start with a closer huh? Football, you definitely want to get your world class long snapper before your QB.

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12-10-2008, 09:30 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Georgia Panther View Post
99% agree. The 1% disagree is I would invest no more than $4 mil at the goalie position. Two $2mil goalies in tandem is the ideal until and unless the team is one elite goalie away from the Stanley Cup. That should be the last piece acquired, not the first, in that quest.
With the contracts JM has handed out, I don't know if Anderson will sign for 2 million. If I were his agent, I'd at least ask for Olesz money, as Anderson has had more of an impact on this team over the last two years.

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12-10-2008, 09:30 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Rattrick View Post
Well, you're probably the only person who actually thinks that way. Every team knows you have to build from the net out.

I guess in baseball, you start with a closer huh? Football, you definitely want to get your world class long snapper before your QB.
Actually, I would say the closer is the baseball equivalent of a goalie. This team needs more starting pitching and hitting before worrying about an elite closer.

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12-10-2008, 09:43 AM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Georgia Panther View Post
99% agree. The 1% disagree is I would invest no more than $4 mil at the goalie position. Two $2mil goalies in tandem is the ideal until and unless the team is one elite goalie away from the Stanley Cup. That should be the last piece acquired, not the first, in that quest.
Thats why i said that I cant see them committing that much to Vokoun and Anderson. I can see Andy getting around $2.5-3 million per, and then bringing in a capable backup at $1-1.5 million. We are not in any way capable of paying that much for two goalies when we have other areas that need to be addressed.

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12-10-2008, 09:44 AM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Georgia Panther View Post
Actually, I would say the closer is the baseball equivalent of a goalie. This team needs more starting pitching and hitting before worrying about an elite closer.
No, the goalie is the most important position in the game, just like the pitchers in baseball and the QB in football.

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12-10-2008, 10:01 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Georgia Panther View Post
Getting closer to the Dark Side every day. And Remember, we have Anderson because Mike Keenan traded a lowly sixth round draft pick to Chicago for him.
No, the dark side would be if I though Vokoun should immediately be shipped out. I don't, and still think he'll reclaim the starter's position this season.

And the deal wasn't anything astounding for Keenan. Chicago didn't place value on Andy since he'd been struggling as a starter and they wanted to move salary, and Keenan saw him as a minor league goalie to fulfill part of Florida's deal with Rochester.

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12-10-2008, 10:08 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Rattrick View Post
No, the goalie is the most important position in the game, just like the pitchers in baseball and the QB in football.
Pitchers are the most important part of the game but not closers. Closers only hold on to the lead that hitters provided and starting and setup pitching maintained. Goalies can't win games. They can only allow you to win games by holding down the opposition long enough for your offense to score some goals. Anderson held down the fort long enough in the third period and OT Monday to enable Weiss to win the game but still it was Weiss winning the game, not Anderson. You don't win unless you score and goalies don't score. Period.

Now I might agree with you that good defense, and in baseball I consider pitching part of the defensive side of the game, is more important than good offense but not in the respect that any one defensive position is more important than the whole. Good Starting Pitching means nothing without good set-up men and closers. A good goalie can't overcome consistent poor defensive play in front of him. I would say good defensive play by the blueline and forwards with average goaltending more often than good goalie play with average defensive play in front of goal wins more games.


Last edited by Georgia Panther: 12-10-2008 at 10:18 AM.
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12-10-2008, 10:15 AM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Georgia Panther View Post
Pitchers are the most important part of the game but not closers. Closers only hold on to the lead that hitters provided and starting and setup pitching maintained. Goalies can't win games. They can only allow you to win games by holding down the opposition long enough for your offense to score some goals. Anderson held down the fort long enough in the third period and OT Monday to enable Weiss to win the game but still it was Weiss winning the game, not Anderson. You don't win unless you score and goalies don't score. Period.
You might not win if you don't score, but you can at least get a point. You'll never win if your goalie can't stop a puck!

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12-10-2008, 10:18 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Georgia Panther View Post
Pitchers are the most important part of the game but not closers. Closers only hold on to the lead that hitters provided and starting and setup pitching maintained. Goalies can't win games. They can only allow you to win games by holding down the opposition long enough for your offense to score some goals. Anderson held down the fort long enough in the third period and OT Monday to enable Weiss to win the game but still it was Weiss winning the game, not Anderson. You don't win unless you score and goalies don't score. Period.
Good goalies maximize the impact of every goal your team scores by keeping the other team from scoring - which in turn can also negatively affect the other teams' play as they get frustrated and, presuming your team gets a lead, desperate. A goalie is both starting AND closing pitcher. Using your same analogy, a pitcher can't win a game either, he can only try to limit the offense of the other team.

QB isn't a good analogy, though - it's an offensive position.

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12-10-2008, 10:33 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Race against NINE View Post
Good goalies maximize the impact of every goal your team scores by keeping the other team from scoring - which in turn can also negatively affect the other teams' play as they get frustrated and, presuming your team gets a lead, desperate. A goalie is both starting AND closing pitcher. Using your same analogy, a pitcher can't win a game either, he can only try to limit the offense of the other team.

QB isn't a good analogy, though - it's an offensive position.

Now I might agree with you that good defense, and in baseball I consider pitching part of the defensive side of the game, is more important than good offense but not in the respect that any one defensive position is more important than the whole. Good Starting Pitching means nothing without good set-up men and closers. A good goalie can't overcome consistent poor defensive play in front of him. I would say good defensive play by the blueline and forwards with average goaltending more often than good goalie play with average defensive play in front of goal wins more games.

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12-10-2008, 10:39 AM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Georgia Panther View Post
Now I might agree with you that good defense, and in baseball I consider pitching part of the defensive side of the game, is more important than good offense but not in the respect that any one defensive position is more important than the whole. Good Starting Pitching means nothing without good set-up men and closers. A good goalie can't overcome consistent poor defensive play in front of him. I would say good defensive play by the blueline and forwards with average goaltending more often than good goalie play with average defensive play in front of goal wins more games.
Ever heard of a complete game? Think of a goalie as a pitcher who goes out to pitch 9 innings every game.

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12-10-2008, 10:46 AM
  #93
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Ever heard of a complete game? Think of a goalie as a pitcher who goes out to pitch 9 innings every game.
Complete games are few and far between in modern day baseball which has lessened the importance of the dominant starting pitcher not to mention that pitcher goes every five days now rather than every four or even three in the past. (The Chicago White Sox years ago went every 3 because they had two knuckle ball pitchers in their rotation. 1972 Wilbur Wood 24-17 1973 24-20, 1972 Stan Bahnsen 21-16 1973 18-21.)


Last edited by Georgia Panther: 12-10-2008 at 10:53 AM.
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12-10-2008, 10:58 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Georgia Panther View Post
Now I might agree with you that good defense, and in baseball I consider pitching part of the defensive side of the game, is more important than good offense but not in the respect that any one defensive position is more important than the whole. Good Starting Pitching means nothing without good set-up men and closers. A good goalie can't overcome consistent poor defensive play in front of him. I would say good defensive play by the blueline and forwards with average goaltending more often than good goalie play with average defensive play in front of goal wins more games.
The equivalent of the defense for baseball would be the fielders. They're there to prevent the batter from scoring when the pitcher fails. The game actually acts in reverse of hockey, where the single player, the goalie, is the fallback position for when the defense fails.

And you must have a good goalie to win games - that's proven time and again in hockey. You don't need a great one, but you need a good one, even if they're only good that season. Teams with poor goaltending don't typically reach the playoffs, and never win the Stanley Cup.

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12-10-2008, 11:12 AM
  #95
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I think that might be the right way to do this. This team needs some scoring help, but maybe the return of Booth, Horton, Stillman, and Zednik can ease that till the offseason. Then, you gain some money with some expiring contracts, which you can use to sign a forward and a backup to Andy, and use Vokoun to add some more scoring up front.

I cant see this team committing $8 million dollars to two goaltenders. One of the two will be gone by the draft, and its going to come down to who plays the best from now until the end of the year. If Vokoun is voted off the island, I can see him being moved come draft day for a player and a pick. There are several capable backups available in the offseason, and by signing one of them, the total salary will still probably be less than Vokoun's alone.

Id would rather have an additional pick, a top six forward, Andy and Roloson, for example, here, and have Markstrom brought up slowly, than having Vokoun here and Andy prove it elsewhere. I think that ridding ourselves of Vokoun, and more importantly, his salary, can really help this team in other areas.
unbelievable that folks are stuck on this. we just outscored a team with possibly the most explosive top line in the league. and that was WITHOUT our top scorers! if we continue moving the puck well and continue the tough forecheck, we can win a lot of games without giving up a ton right now for the "scoring help" everyone is crying for. when are folks going to learn? how many games do we have to watch?

diluting our defense or goaltending strength should be the last thing we should be looking to do. we can survive without another top 6 guy this season. by april/may we'll have a good idea of where repik and matthias are at and how ready they are (i think we can pencil in frolik as top 6 right now) and based on that, be ready to go out and fill any holes with FAs. imo, matthias is close and if we can hold onto jay, i don't really see the need for a blockbuster trade or FA pickup. playing this style, with a strong defense and young/fast forward corps, we'll be more than fine. my concern is with horton at this point. if horton's contributing the way he should be and was expected to, we're in pretty good shape. that's a big question mark. a blockbuster deal with horton is something i might start considering seriously if he doesn't turn it around when he gets healthy.

with the economy tanking, the cap going down a bit and teams tightening their belts, a tweaked version of this roster playing PDB's style is looking pretty good, imo. it might not be the most beautiful hockey but it's exciting and we'll win plenty of games. i'd forget about a high priced scorer if i were you; i don't think it's smart and i don't think it's going to happen.

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12-10-2008, 11:19 AM
  #96
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zero you and I think alike more and more everyday.

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12-10-2008, 11:26 AM
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rattrick View Post
No, the goalie is the most important position in the game, just like the pitchers in baseball and the QB in football.
Read what I wrote carefully. Think of the goalie as the entire pitching staff. You have to have pitching to win.

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12-10-2008, 11:44 AM
  #98
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unbelievable that folks are stuck on this. we just outscored a team with possibly the most explosive top line in the league. and that was WITHOUT our top scorers! if we continue moving the puck well and continue the tough forecheck, we can win a lot of games without giving up a ton right now for the "scoring help" everyone is crying for. when are folks going to learn? how many games do we have to watch?
I actually had typed out a post earlier that would have discussed how the Panthers were winning games without an explosive scorer or even 5 of their top scoring line forwards, but I envisioned the arguments that would be made against it, got frustrated at the pointlessness of the discussion, and deleted the post.

It played up the fact the team is winning at a 57.1% rate and earning points at about a 71% rate over the last 7 games. I ****canned the post when I projected that out to a 117 point season I knew no one would see the point of the post at that point, since it's a pretty unbelievable number.

That said, if they earn points at that rate for the rest of the season, they're in the playoffs - they'll exceed my projected playoff target points total by 9.

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12-10-2008, 12:03 PM
  #99
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I don't see that as an upgrade at all...
Are you serious? You're trading a Goalie you dont need, and a Dman you wont be able to re-sign anyways, for 7 year of Jason Spezza.

How exactly is that not a win? For both teams really, if Bouwmeester signs with Ottawa.

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12-10-2008, 12:07 PM
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Race against NINE View Post
That said, if they earn points at that rate for the rest of the season, they're in the playoffs - they'll exceed my projected playoff target points total by 9.
lol, do you have a spreadsheet you use to track all of this?

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