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Rumor: Columbus interested in Jones

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Old
12-05-2008, 05:11 PM
  #51
MountainHawk
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If we deal Jones, it's not going to be for a roster player. It's going to be for a 2nd and a good D prospect that is a couple of years away.

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12-05-2008, 05:15 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
WOW, you guys play way too much "fantasy" sports. WE may see him as a liability but in truth he's a quality 2nd line dman on a very good contract. Last year he stepped up his game in the 2nd half of the season and in the playoffs and proved himself a 2nd liner who filled in just fine on the top line once we lost our top 2 dmen. His hip injury isn't "career threatening" so nobody is going to view his value as "low" just because he's been uinjured for the first third of this season. He resigned with us last year for slightly less than he could probably have gotten through FA so he's NOT over priced.

He was most likely worth at least a 2nd before he was injured but we wouldn't have traded him for it because he had a lot more value to use then than a 2nd would. Now, we have a better player in Carle who does everything that Jones does a bit better but at a bit higher price. We don't need Jones and Carle both so one is out the door.

Even now Jones is worth at least a 2nd and I don't see us taking anything less for him. YOU may not think he's worht that much but every other GM in the league understands his value. He WILL return that much.
Seeing as were in cap trouble, I don't see other teams stepping up to the plate and being overly generous. What I mean by that, is giving us fair market value AND relieving us from our own cap issues. If it's a salary dump, it's just that...a dump.

That's just my opinion.

And I would like to say at this time, trading Jones IMO would be a mistake.

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12-05-2008, 05:17 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by MountainHawk View Post
If we deal Jones, it's not going to be for a roster player. It's going to be for a 2nd and a good D prospect that is a couple of years away.
I doubt his return is that high. He is an UFA at the end of that deal, and overpaid for his services by our own GMs admission.

Umberger netted a 1st and a 3rd.

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12-05-2008, 05:20 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by opus View Post
And I would like to say at this time, trading Jones (at this junction) would be a mistake.
I'm not so sure that's true, especially if you need to sacrifice another player to keep him around...or stifle Parent's development to keep him around.

2-3 years from now, what lineup is more important to this team?

Timonen-Coburn
Carle-Vaananen
Sbisa-Jones

or

Timonen-Coburn
Carle-Vaananen
Sbisa-Parent

Granted, Vaananen is pretty irrelevant to this discussion. But I would say that there's almost zero chance Randy Jones will be re-signed after this current contract. He was openly talking about going for the cash as an UFA after this deal this past summer, and if you look at our salary structure the next couple of years (as well as the economic forecasts)...Jones doesn't have a long-term future here, and the need for him with Sbisa and Carle here is questionable at best.

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12-05-2008, 05:22 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
I doubt his return is that high. He is an UFA at the end of that deal, and overpaid for his services by our own GMs admission.

Umberger netted a 1st and a 3rd.
Maybe that's true. I think Jones should get that, as he's a quality 2nd line defenseman, but coming off hip surgery he might not get that.

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12-05-2008, 05:24 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
I'm not so sure that's true, especially if you need to sacrifice another player to keep him around...or stifle Parent's development to keep him around.

2-3 years from now, what lineup is more important to this team?

Timonen-Coburn
Carle-Vaananen
Sbisa-Jones

or

Timonen-Coburn
Carle-Vaananen
Sbisa-Parent

Granted, Vaananen is pretty irrelevant to this discussion. But I would say that there's almost zero chance Randy Jones will be re-signed after this current contract. He was openly talking about going for the cash as an UFA after this deal this past summer, and if you look at our salary structure the next couple of years (as well as the economic forecasts)...Jones doesn't have a long-term future here, and the need for him with Sbisa and Carle here is questionable at best.
Yeah, I wasn't suggested keeping him here for the duration of his current contract. Just not rushing him out the door. I think he had a decent season last year, and would rather see other guys moved before Jones.

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12-05-2008, 05:28 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by opus View Post
Seeing as were in cap trouble, I don't see other teams stepping up to the plate and being overly generous. What I mean by that, is giving us fair market value AND relieving us from our own cap issues. If it's a salary dump, it's just that...a dump.

That's just my opinion.

And I would like to say at this time, trading Jones IMO would be a mistake.


Yup, great logic, that will keep YOU as a GM from landing a quality 2nd pairing puck-moving dman for a 2nd and a prospect, VERY GOOD price for a player like Jones who is on a pretty good contract. Yup, just try to get 29 other GM's to ALL stay away just to **** over the Flyers and trust that none of the other 28 GM's will fold and take the deal and run. THAT JUST DOESN'T HAPPEN. We may not get TOP value for Jones but we'll do better than a 3rd as some seem to think we'll get. Jones will STILL fetch a 2nd and a quality prospect even just coming off an injury and us being in cap trouble.

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12-05-2008, 05:28 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by MountainHawk View Post
Maybe that's true. I think Jones should get that, as he's a quality 2nd line defenseman, but coming off hip surgery he might not get that.
I guess it depends on how you evaluate him. In my estimation, he's an overpaid third pairing guy, who was playing 2nd pairing for us because all we had were third pairing guys last year.

He's not a good PP defenseman (not good at getting his shots through, nor is he a creative passer at all--also panics along the line when pressed).

Even last year he was a minus player when played above the third pairing.

If you look at our roster as of today, I think Jones will struggle to crack the 2nd pairing when healthy...Carle is better than Jones as of now, and there is no way those two should be a pairing together (and Carle is clearly not a top pairing guy). Sbisa clearly has more skills in the long-term. If Parent develops the way he should, he should pass Jones as a defensive player.

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12-05-2008, 05:32 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
Yup, great logic, that will keep YOU as a GM from landing a quality 2nd pairing puck-moving dman for a 2nd and a prospect, VERY GOOD price for a player like Jones who is on a pretty good contract. Yup, just try to get 29 other GM's to ALL stay away just to **** over the Flyers and trust that none of the other 28 GM's will fold and take the deal and run. THAT JUST DOESN'T HAPPEN. We may not get TOP value for Jones but we'll do better than a 3rd as some seem to think we'll get. Jones will STILL fetch a 2nd and a quality prospect even just coming off an injury and us being in cap trouble.
Let's wait and see what happens. I'm not saying I'm right, I just don't agree he fetches a 2nd and a prospect.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong...won't be the first or the last time.

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12-05-2008, 05:32 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
Yup, great logic, that will keep YOU as a GM from landing a quality 2nd pairing puck-moving dman for a 2nd and a prospect, VERY GOOD price for a player like Jones who is on a pretty good contract. Yup, just try to get 29 other GM's to ALL stay away just to **** over the Flyers and trust that none of the other 28 GM's will fold and take the deal and run. THAT JUST DOESN'T HAPPEN. We may not get TOP value for Jones but we'll do better than a 3rd as some seem to think we'll get. Jones will STILL fetch a 2nd and a quality prospect even just coming off an injury and us being in cap trouble.
Dude, if you don't think opposing GMs are going to look at the Flyer's salary cap figure and take advantage of that in negotiations you're on some good stuff.

And his contract is horrible if you're an opposing GM. It ends with him as an UFA, and he's overpaid according to Holmgren.

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12-05-2008, 05:34 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
I doubt his return is that high. He is an UFA at the end of that deal, and overpaid for his services by our own GMs admission.
?

I must've missed that. Got a link?

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12-05-2008, 05:35 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Dude, if you don't think opposing GMs are going to look at the Flyer's salary cap figure and take advantage of that in negotiations you're on some good stuff.
Yep.

Why would other GM's over-pay and solve part of our cap problems??? Were in no way shape or form in a position of strength when negotiating a trade. None.

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12-05-2008, 05:38 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by claude boivin lives View Post
?

I must've missed that. Got a link?
It was in the quotes following signing him. Holmgren basically said they expected his arbitration to be X (forget the specific number) and in order to avoid that they gave him his contract which was for more.

It, quite literally, made no sense. If you think his arbitration number is whatever, don't overpay that without someone making an RFA offer (since they could control it). If someone thinks Jones is worth more than that, then you get a choice between contract and picks...which isn't that bad.

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12-05-2008, 05:43 PM
  #64
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Keep Jones. All I have to say.

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12-05-2008, 05:46 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
It was in the quotes following signing him. Holmgren basically said they expected his arbitration to be X (forget the specific number) and in order to avoid that they gave him his contract which was for more.

It, quite literally, made no sense. If you think his arbitration number is whatever, don't overpay that without someone making an RFA offer (since they could control it). If someone thinks Jones is worth more than that, then you get a choice between contract and picks...which isn't that bad.
Unless Holmgren saw him as a key part of another deep playoff push. Could be he was just afraid of trying to find an imediate replacement for him in the overpriced free agent pool we had over the summer. He already knew at that point that Smith and most likely Hatcher would not be around, replacing half your D under the cap isn't easy these days.

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12-05-2008, 05:48 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by XS Chop View Post
Unless Holmgren saw him as a key part of another deep playoff push. Could be he was just afraid of trying to find an imediate replacement for him in the overpriced free agent pool we had over the summer.
I think it has more to do with the fact that Holmgren has yet to show ANY savvy with relation to the salary cap and keeping payroll down.

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12-05-2008, 05:50 PM
  #67
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I think it has more to do with the fact that Holmgren has yet to show ANY savvy with relation to the salary cap and keeping payroll down.
I'm trying not to beleive that but it's getting harder and harder.

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12-05-2008, 06:02 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Dude, if you don't think opposing GMs are going to look at the Flyer's salary cap figure and take advantage of that in negotiations you're on some good stuff.

And his contract is horrible if you're an opposing GM. It ends with him as an UFA, and he's overpaid according to Holmgren.
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Originally Posted by opus View Post
Yep.

Why would other GM's over-pay and solve part of our cap problems??? Were in no way shape or form in a position of strength when negotiating a trade. None.

Honestly, you don't have any clue about playing GM so don't go calling out anyone else about not having a clue. You have NOTHING to support your "theory" while on my side there are deals done every year where a player returns fair market value. I NEVER said that teams were going to "over pay" for Jones, I said that Jones' actual value was most likely a 2nd and a quality prospect (like a Ratchuk or such, a player taken in the 2nd or 3rd rnd). Call Jones garbage all you want and call him over paid all you want but facts just don't support you. Jones may not be good defensively but he has shown a knack for adding to the offensive play. Like it or not OTHERS do see this and will be willing to part with at least a 2nd for him.

LOL, it's not like we are going to have to PAY another team to take Jones off our hands to help us get under the cap. We have other options and if team A isn't willing to give us what we want, there is always team B out there willing to deal.

The truth is that you just can't support your claims so I can call YOU crazy too. We'll just sit back and see what happens and leave it at that. Honestly, I'm not certain Jones WILL be moved. I think that Lupul is the one on his way out. I talked about this in another thread. Jones seems to be part of the "Flyers Family" and our owner stands by them with blinders for some ungodly reason.

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12-05-2008, 06:17 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by MountainHawk View Post
If we deal Jones, it's not going to be for a roster player. It's going to be for a 2nd and a good D prospect that is a couple of years away.
that wold be ideal and would liek that even if not a 2nd. clear his slaary out, no need to take back if you can avoid it.

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12-05-2008, 06:25 PM
  #70
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With Mason pwning, lets make a package for Leclaire...

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12-05-2008, 06:27 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
Honestly, you don't have any clue about playing GM so don't go calling out anyone else about not having a clue. You have NOTHING to support your "theory" while on my side there are deals done every year where a player returns fair market value. I NEVER said that teams were going to "over pay" for Jones, I said that Jones' actual value was most likely a 2nd and a quality prospect (like a Ratchuk or such, a player taken in the 2nd or 3rd rnd). Call Jones garbage all you want and call him over paid all you want but facts just don't support you. Jones may not be good defensively but he has shown a knack for adding to the offensive play. Like it or not OTHERS do see this and will be willing to part with at least a 2nd for him.
If you knew how to read, you'd see all along that I've said I don't believe Jones is worth a 2nd round pick (injury and contract).

I never claimed I was an expert, sorry pal.

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LOL, it's not like we are going to have to PAY another team to take Jones off our hands to help us get under the cap. We have other options and if team A isn't willing to give us what we want, there is always team B out there willing to deal.
I never said we would have to pay another team to take him. What I said was...a team isn't going to do us any favours. Big difference.

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The truth is that you just can't support your claims so I can call YOU crazy too. We'll just sit back and see what happens and leave it at that. Honestly, I'm not certain Jones WILL be moved. I think that Lupul is the one on his way out. I talked about this in another thread. Jones seems to be part of the "Flyers Family" and our owner stands by them with blinders for some ungodly reason.
First of all, I never called you crazy. Having said that, you feel free to call me what you want...whatever floats your boat.

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12-05-2008, 06:43 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
Honestly, you don't have any clue about playing GM so don't go calling out anyone else about not having a clue. You have NOTHING to support your "theory" while on my side there are deals done every year where a player returns fair market value.
Yes, I do. There's a wealth of evidence that GMs aren't so stupid that they don't consider salary cap positions in negotiations. We have to make moves with our personnel to make things work when everyone is healthy...that's a reality that another GM can take advantage of to give up less than he might for Jones (or any other player on our roster). Same thing happens when teams are at or over the salary cap and get a team to give them something to take cap off their hands.

Reference here if you don't believe me: http://www.nypost.com/seven/10022006...ils/devils.htm

Salary cap situation affects the value of players being moved, that's simply the reality of it. Now, an opposing GM might be too dumb to take advantage of it, but doesn't mean it isn't a reality. GMs overpay and underpay all the time because they don't have a good grasp of markets.

So, my theory is founded in an understanding of how negotiations (in all walks of life, not just sports) operate, paired with paying attention to the NHL and other professional sports leagues: tell me, do you think Sean Avery has the same value today that he did three weeks ago?

None of that refutes that "fair market value" trades happen on a regular basis...However, you're ignoring that "fair market value" is affected by things like...the teams salary cap position.

Quote:
I NEVER said that teams were going to "over pay" for Jones, I said that Jones' actual value was most likely a 2nd and a quality prospect (like a Ratchuk or such, a player taken in the 2nd or 3rd rnd). Call Jones garbage all you want and call him over paid all you want but facts just don't support you. Jones may not be good defensively but he has shown a knack for adding to the offensive play. Like it or not OTHERS do see this and will be willing to part with at least a 2nd for him.
This section of your rant is simply...ridiculous. What "facts" do you have to support your argument, other than your own opinion? You don't quote a single "fact" in this statement, while accusing others of not having the facts behind them.

And, you know what's more, I don't disagree that Jones would fetch a 2nd. In fact, I figure he'd fetch a 2nd and a 3rd or 4th.

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12-05-2008, 08:00 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Yes, I do. There's a wealth of evidence that GMs aren't so stupid that they don't consider salary cap positions in negotiations. We have to make moves with our personnel to make things work when everyone is healthy...that's a reality that another GM can take advantage of to give up less than he might for Jones (or any other player on our roster). Same thing happens when teams are at or over the salary cap and get a team to give them something to take cap off their hands.

Reference here if you don't believe me: http://www.nypost.com/seven/10022006...ils/devils.htm

Salary cap situation affects the value of players being moved, that's simply the reality of it. Now, an opposing GM might be too dumb to take advantage of it, but doesn't mean it isn't a reality. GMs overpay and underpay all the time because they don't have a good grasp of markets.

So, my theory is founded in an understanding of how negotiations (in all walks of life, not just sports) operate, paired with paying attention to the NHL and other professional sports leagues: tell me, do you think Sean Avery has the same value today that he did three weeks ago?

None of that refutes that "fair market value" trades happen on a regular basis...However, you're ignoring that "fair market value" is affected by things like...the teams salary cap position.



This section of your rant is simply...ridiculous. What "facts" do you have to support your argument, other than your own opinion? You don't quote a single "fact" in this statement, while accusing others of not having the facts behind them.

And, you know what's more, I don't disagree that Jones would fetch a 2nd. In fact, I figure he'd fetch a 2nd and a 3rd or 4th.

This is going to be fun. Jester, you site ONE example where one team PAYS another to relieve them of a cap problem. I'll give you another, WE paid for another team to take JR off our hands so we caould sign Forsberg. Do GM's take the cap into consideration??? YES!!! I never debated that issue and honestly, IT ISN'T AN ISSUE!!!! Jones not being worth his 2.75 mil salary is only a problem with you and a few others on here. Look, I'm no Jones fan and I've been calling for him to be sent packing before almost everyone here. I wanted him gone half way through his rookie season that's how long I've been "afraid" of him landing here long term. However, the truth is that he IS an average 2nd pairing dma (probably not on a legit playoff team let alone a cup contender).

If there is a "wealth of information out there" supporting your point that Jones isn't worth his 2.75 mil contract and at least a 2nd rnd pick name me 5 dmen who signed a new contract last year who scored more than 31 points and have a lower cap hit. Also, name me 5 dmen who were traded in the past 3 years who scored 31 points (or 30-35 point range) and DIDN'T get at least a 2nd round. I'll wait for you to find them but I honestly don't think you can find even 2 to fit each search.

I know you'll just ignor this but I'm calling you out on this one. You said there is a wealth of information to support you position so go ahead and post it. There were only 39 dmen who scored more points than Jones did last year. That would make him the 2nd best OFFENSIVE dman on every team but 9 last year. Now I'm not saying that makes him the 40th best dman in the league but that DEFINITELY makes him capable of playing 2nd pairing on about half the teams in the league. 2.75 mil for a 31 point 2nd pairing dman, that's not BAD value for a dmen. It's about right, not a barging but not over paying either.

Because of the cap not every team in the league will be able to fit Jones in. Also, not every team is in NEED of Jones. However, it IS my contention that there is a need for a 31 point 2nd pairing dman at 2.75 mil. There is no way in hell you can prove with your wealth of available information out there that there ISN'T!!!!

Will we have to make certain cap space moves??? YES. We all know it will happen. If we decide to move Lupul instead of Jones do you honestly think we'll have a hard time finding a taker hand have to settle for far less than what his fair market value is just because of our cap situation??? Now maybe if he continues to struggle other teams won't want to take on his 4+ mil salary next season so we WOULD have to take less for HIM because he WOULD be on a terrible salary but that's not the case with Jones.

Here's a list of FA's from last year who scored more points than Jones and their new contract:
Redden - 6.5 mil per, Blake (same 31 points) - 5 mil, Rozsival - 5 mil, Campbell - 7.1 mil, Liles (probably the MOST comparable to Jones) - 4 mil per, Hanisley (32 points, 1 more than Jones) - 4.5 mil, Streit - 4.1 mil, J-Bo - 4.9 mil, Suter - 3.5 mil, Green - 5.25 mil.

I may have missed a few but that's last years list. Jones is the lowest paid on that list BY FAR. Liles is very simialr to Jones in both offensive and defensive ability and look at the contract HE got. The FACTS support that Jones is NOT over paid. In fact there are players who scored fewer points who got more than Jones and they aren't really any better than Jones defensively. Again, YOU may not like Jones and YOU may think he's over paid at 2.75 mil but when you look at what simialr players have signed for the FACTS of there recent signings do NOT support your beliefs.


Alas, we do seem to be in agreement of what Jones' value in a trade would be. However, you are saying that he WON'T return what he's truly worth becuase we are over the cap with him, we HAVE to make a move, and that other GM's WILL take advantage of that fact. If this is the case (as you yourself have posted) then the only logical conclussion would be that you think Jones is actually worth MORE than a 2nd and a 3rd or 4th.

I'll be honest with you, I really don't want to go back through all NHL trades over the past 3 seasons so I can't supply you with lists of trades but I'll go with what I said. We AREN'T in such dire straights that we have to dump a player for less than fair market value. We DO have options regarding of how we get back under the cap so no, we AREN'T at the mercy of other GM's. Once you dismiss this notion that our backs are up against the cap wall then you can forget having to dump Jones to save our cap *****.

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12-05-2008, 08:05 PM
  #74
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I'm actually looking thru NHL trades now so I'll post what I find.

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12-05-2008, 08:09 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
I'm actually looking thru NHL trades now so I'll post what I find.
http://www.thehockeyherald.com/?p=1494

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/columns/story?id=3473962

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=3265543

Another good one: http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=3155560

The cap is a commodity that has effect upon deals, you can choose not to believe that if you want to...but it matters. Teams with more cap space have greater flexibility, teams with less cap space have less flexibility. If you're inflexible, you're in a poor negotiating position to get and send what you want to.

It's the same as when players are trading players they cannot sign.

What has more value? Jay Bouwmeester as an UFA at the end of this year, or Jay Bouwmeester signed for the next 10 at a cheap contract?


Last edited by Jester: 12-05-2008 at 08:27 PM.
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