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Pittsburgh, meet the NEW Washington Capitals

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Old
03-03-2004, 08:07 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by Jacobv2
Regardless, you haven't explained your reasoning for the Caps being not only better than the Pens next year, but "a lot" better. But you don't have to.
I don't have to because I never said that. I said the caps are looking better than the pens and will be a playoff contender in 3 years. I never said the caps will be a lot better next year.

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03-03-2004, 08:24 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand
I don't have to because I never said that. I said the caps are looking better than the pens and will be a playoff contender in 3 years. I never said the caps will be a lot better next year.
which brings us to the question: why do you think the Caps will be better than the Pens in 3 years?

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03-03-2004, 08:31 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand
I don't have to because I never said that. I said the caps are looking better than the pens and will be a playoff contender in 3 years. I never said the caps will be a lot better next year.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand
Actually, the Caps look a lot better next year than the pens do

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03-03-2004, 08:33 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Raider Zero
which brings us to the question: why do you think the Caps will be better than the Pens in 3 years?
I've already been through this. The Caps have acquired good, more higher end prospects, and high round draft picks, as opposed to the pens who have acquired marginal prospects with no top end talent, and mid-late round picks. There most valuable asset is their own first round pick. As of yet, the Caps are yet to trade away Kolzig, Witt, and Nylander, so they at least still have some talent to work with.

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03-03-2004, 08:36 PM
  #30
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They do look a lot better next year. The pens projected best player isn't even an nhler yet, hell, he isn't even a member of the team, where as Washington still has some nhl talent to work with. They look a lot better, and I gaurentee a 10 point difference in favor of the caps next year. Yes, the Caps are selling off all their high priced talent, but I don't think anybody here realizes just how bad the Pens are. There best player is Dick tarnstrom, the Caps will at least be an nhl calibur ****ty team.

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03-03-2004, 08:45 PM
  #31
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Wow. Talk about backpedaling.

Quote:
They do look a lot better next year. The pens projected best player isn't even an nhler yet, hell, he isn't even a member of the team, where as Washington still has some nhl talent to work with
Washington's leading scorer now has 27 points.
Their leading scorer amongst defenseman is Joel Kwiatkowski with 11. He appears to be the #1 guy next season.
Their starting goaltender will have 8 games of NHL experience under his belt. A combined 14 if they alternate between Stana and Ouellet.

Hey, I'm not saying the Penguins are going to be good, but it's quite clear that the Caps will be as bad or worse. But it's entirely possible that Leonsis hits the free agent market. I also understand the fact that you're a disgruntled former Pens fan that might have trouble speaking objectively.

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03-03-2004, 08:55 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacobv2
Wow. Talk about backpedaling.



Washington's leading scorer now has 27 points.
Their leading scorer amongst defenseman is Joel Kwiatkowski with 11. He appears to be the #1 guy next season.
Their starting goaltender will have 8 games of NHL experience under his belt. A combined 14 if they alternate between Stana and Ouellet.

Hey, I'm not saying the Penguins are going to be good, but it's quite clear that the Caps will be as bad or worse. But it's entirely possible that Leonsis hits the free agent market. I also understand the fact that you're a disgruntled former Pens fan that might have trouble speaking objectively.
You are assuming Carter, Kolzig, Witt, Nylander and battaglia will all be gone next year.I also forgot Miller. All of those players will not be back, but not all of them will be gone either. All of those players are better than anybody the Pens have right now though, so even with two of them back, they should be a lot better.

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03-03-2004, 08:56 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand
I've already been through this. The Caps have acquired good, more higher end prospects, and high round draft picks, as opposed to the pens who have acquired marginal prospects with no top end talent, and mid-late round picks. There most valuable asset is their own first round pick. As of yet, the Caps are yet to trade away Kolzig, Witt, and Nylander, so they at least still have some talent to work with.
big problem with your argument: youre assuming that your prospects and picks WILL work out. its too early to tell that.

Quote:
They do look a lot better next year. The pens projected best player isn't even an nhler yet, hell, he isn't even a member of the team, where as Washington still has some nhl talent to work with. They look a lot better, and I gaurentee a 10 point difference in favor of the caps next year. Yes, the Caps are selling off all their high priced talent, but I don't think anybody here realizes just how bad the Pens are. There best player is Dick tarnstrom, the Caps will at least be an nhl calibur ****ty team.
nhl talent as in Zubrus and Halpern? a 2nd and 3rd liner? a defense where jason Doig is your #1 d-man?
your leading scorer with the recent trades has 27 points, less than 3 penguins, tied with one, and there are more Penguins with only a few points less. and the caps players had good players to at leas feed ff of, teh Pens palyers dont have any with Mario out and Straka traded.
Caps are tied for 2nd to last while having the leading scoring forward and d-man, and in return have only received a few roster players.
so basically, caps are 2nd to last while having a handfull of good players. do you really think they are going to be a lot better than the Pens, especially if they trade the few good players they have left? dont say the Pens have no nhl calibre players, cause i'm willing to bet the Caps are going to have less by the end of this year.

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03-03-2004, 09:01 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand
All of those players are better than anybody the Pens have right now though, so even with two of them back, they should be a lot better.
that is highly debatable. i wouldnt call Zubrus or Halpern better than malone, and malone is a rookie. Grier is a checker, and here is no gurantee nylander or grier will be back,a nd even if they are do good. you're assuming way too much.

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03-03-2004, 09:03 PM
  #35
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They look a lot better, and I gaurentee a 10 point difference in favor of the caps next year.
Five more wins over 82 games is a "lot better"?

The Caps looked a whole lot better at the start of this season. I don't see them gaining much ground after losing every other able body on the roster.

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03-03-2004, 09:11 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by tom_servo
Five more wins over 82 games is a "lot better"?

The Caps looked a whole lot better at the start of this season. I don't see them gaining much ground after losing every other able body on the roster.
your right, its a negligable difference. Since 10 points is nothing, I'm sure montreal will win the presidents trophy this year

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03-03-2004, 09:17 PM
  #37
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The difference between the Caps and the Pens right now is that when the Caps do become good they will be able to keep the core of the players, because Leonsis is at least willing to spend if the team can win on a regular basis.

Another difference is that the Caps aren't rushing in players in too early or have its owner take away ice time from its prospects just so he can sell just to sell some tickets. At least the Caps aren't stupid enough to stick an 18 year old goalie in front of its pathetic defense.

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03-03-2004, 09:24 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand
your right, its a negligable difference. Since 10 points is nothing, I'm sure montreal will win the presidents trophy this year
Ten points is negligable when you're out of playoff contention. If we get 48 points next season, what's 58 for the Caps? Nothing but a lower draft pick.

Of course the Pens will suck, and the Caps are better off, but your logic is definitely unhinged.

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03-03-2004, 09:39 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoeverine
The difference between the Caps and the Pens right now is that when the Caps do become good they will be able to keep the core of the players, because Leonsis is at least willing to spend if the team can win on a regular basis.

Another difference is that the Caps aren't rushing in players in too early or have its owner take away ice time from its prospects just so he can sell just to sell some tickets. At least the Caps aren't stupid enough to stick an 18 year old goalie in front of its pathetic defense.
1) with the new cba, and if the pens get a new arena, you cant say the pens wont be able to keep their core players. the pens can't spend cause they dont have the money. thats different thsn not willing to spend.

2) mario is wrong for playing to sell tickets? yeah, playing a guy getting a point per game on the worst team is really a bad idea. and i feel bad that a career 4th liner's ice ime will be taken away. you made a comment about the pens not being able to afford anyone, yet you critisize what they do to sell tickets andc reate revenue. the less theys ell, the less people they can keep. youre contradicting yourself.

3) the pens are so stupid to stick fleury in goal that many thought it dumb to send him back? yeah, ignore the fact he won rookie of the month. he was sent down for finacial reasons pure and simple. besides, with goncha gone, i think its debatle that the Pens defense is worse than the caps.

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03-03-2004, 09:59 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Raider Zero
1) with the new cba, and if the pens get a new arena, you cant say the pens wont be able to keep their core players. the pens can't spend cause they dont have the money. thats different thsn not willing to spend.
So people will just flock to the games if there is a new arena? That sure worked well in Washington, didn't it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raider Zero
2) mario is wrong for playing to sell tickets? yeah, playing a guy getting a point per game on the worst team is really a bad idea. and i feel bad that a career 4th liner's ice ime will be taken away. you made a comment about the pens not being able to afford anyone, yet you critisize what they do to sell tickets andc reate revenue. the less theys ell, the less people they can keep. youre contradicting yourself.
So now the Pens are just a bunch of career 4th liners? What happened to all the prospects that could use the ice time? With defensive responsbility being as important as it is nowdays Lemieux is probably the worst example for young players to follow. It was pretty obvious that no team with Rico Fata on its first line was going to win too many games anyway so why not let the kids play? Oh yeah, because they aren't famous enough to sell tickets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raider Zero
3) the pens are so stupid to stick fleury in goal that many thought it dumb to send him back? yeah, ignore the fact he won rookie of the month. he was sent down for finacial reasons pure and simple. besides, with goncha gone, i think its debatle that the Pens defense is worse than the caps.
Anyone who knows anything about goalies know that you can't expect an 18 year old to last too long in the NHL. The Isles called up DiPietro too soon and crushed his confidence right away. Luongo didn't become a star until good 3-4 years after he was drafted. At least Ouellette and Stana have been playing in the pros the past few years. Sure, the Caps defense will probably be crap, but at least Ouellette and Stana will be mentally ready for what they are in for.

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03-03-2004, 10:19 PM
  #41
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I still don't see how the group of ovechkin/malkin, malone, koltsov, surovy, orpik, welch, whitney, and fleury will be worse than the group the caps will put up in 3 years.

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03-03-2004, 10:23 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoeverine
So people will just flock to the games if there is a new arena? That sure worked well in Washington, didn't it?
Washington is a bad hockey market. It is all about the 'Skins in D.C.

Leonis has alluded to this several times.

Pens have the 4th highest TV ratings in the league, and have avg. 11,000+ while losing 18 games in a row.

Pens avg. 6,500 people a game before Mario came, and survived. Pgh is a good hockey market, the ratings prove it time and time again.

11 K ppl showing up when they know the Pens will lose prove it as well.

Quote:
So now the Pens are just a bunch of career 4th liners? What happened to all the prospects that could use the ice time? With defensive responsbility being as important as it is nowdays Lemieux is probably the worst example for young players to follow. It was pretty obvious that no team with Rico Fata on its first line was going to win too many games anyway so why not let the kids play? Oh yeah, because they aren't famous enough to sell tickets.

Anyone who knows anything about goalies know that you can't expect an 18 year old to last too long in the NHL. The Isles called up DiPietro too soon and crushed his confidence right away. Luongo didn't become a star until good 3-4 years after he was drafted. At least Ouellette and Stana have been playing in the pros the past few years. Sure, the Caps defense will probably be crap, but at least Ouellette and Stana will be mentally ready for what they are in for.
Prospects? You mean like Malone? Orpik? Koltsov?

Pens young players are doing fine, thanks for the concern though.

Fleury is doing fine also. He was named Q def. player of the week, and is back to playing how he did when he was drafted.

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03-03-2004, 10:32 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoeverine
So people will just flock to the games if there is a new arena? That sure worked well in Washington, didn't it?
thats washington, not Pittsburgh. even with a good team and new arena washington didnt draw that well. Pens with a good team and crappy arena drew. people went to PNC park when it first opened, it will work for the Pens, even if its jsut a year. but one good year of revenues they can get maybe a fre agent or two to help, make the team better. better team = better attendance.

Quote:
So now the Pens are just a bunch of career 4th liners? What happened to all the prospects that could use the ice time? With defensive responsbility being as important as it is nowdays Lemieux is probably the worst example for young players to follow. It was pretty obvious that no team with Rico Fata on its first line was going to win too many games anyway so why not let the kids play? Oh yeah, because they aren't famous enough to sell tickets.
you read that the wrong way. you cant have 4 potential 1st or 2nd line centers playing on the 4th line with buchberger and mckenna. it does nothing. so mario is out, the 3rd line enter, who probably shouldnt be on the 3rd line anyways moves up. why bring in another potetnial good center to play with checkers who will never score? bring up a 4th liner like, say, meloche, who is 27 and wont be getting much better. and once again, mariop sells, fata doesnt. so why further decrease revenue? once again you say how pens dont spend, yet you think a main source of revenue should be done away with.

Quote:
Anyone who knows anything about goalies know that you can't expect an 18 year old to last too long in the NHL. The Isles called up DiPietro too soon and crushed his confidence right away. Luongo didn't become a star until good 3-4 years after he was drafted. At least Ouellette and Stana have been playing in the pros the past few years. Sure, the Caps defense will probably be crap, but at least Ouellette and Stana will be mentally ready for what they are in for.
yeah, those 2 cups barrasso helped win us and made us one of the best teams in the 90's was a horrible, horrible mistake. putting him in the league at 18 absolutely killed his career. KILLED IT! such an awful awful move. Did you ever stop to think, that maybe not EVERYONE follows the same path, that there are EXCEPTIONS? Fleury, even when he was sent down, was still he best goalie on the team, and our goalies havent been playing bad at all this year. He was invited to training camp out of courtesy, and proved to be the best goalie there. why is it so wrong to use the best goalie you have when he proved every game he played he was ready for the nhl?

btw, did i mention fleury's merchandise sales is #2 next to Mario's? a result of him going to training camp and being the starting goalie. but, according to you, why should the Pens base anything on finances? they should just do everything that doesnt sell tickets.

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03-03-2004, 10:38 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EroCaps
There were rumblings of major financial discord in Pittsburgh well before the re-build. The Caps will be fine.

Personally, I hope neither team suffers any more major losses and both continue to rebuild. I enjoy watching the Pens with Fleury, Orpik, and co. and since the Caps began shedding superstars, the level of play and effort has skyrocketed. It's fun to watch hockey again. It'd be a lot of fun to renew an old rivalry with budding young star players on both sides.
Good post, I hope so too.

The Pens game recently have been very entertaining to watch, and have been for years.

Hopefully both of us can get back to the playoffs in a couple years.

The Caps have one of the best prospect pools in the league, and the Pens are no slouch with prospects either. Hopefully enough guys will develop for each team to allow them to get back to competitive again.

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03-03-2004, 10:39 PM
  #45
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Not to mention that if there's no hockey next year, Pens go into the 2005 lottery with the same spot they have after this season, which will be, beyond any reasonably doubt, last. Sure Last place teams don't always get the #1 pick, but you gotta think that the Pens will get either Ovechkin or Crosby, if not both, to go along with Fleury, Malone, Orpik, Koltsov, Kostopolous, Jackman, and others...

Not to mention that if the CBA works in our favor, the multitude of talent coming down from team way over the cap (with the Pens well under it) will help provide cheaper veteran talent. Sure, some other teams will get some good players too, The Pens won't be the only ones under the cap to begin with, but we'll msot likely get one or two great players in the frenzy.

If things work out the way we hope they do, Pens could compete for the playoffs coming off the new CBA, and could compete for a Stanley Cup not long after.


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03-03-2004, 11:21 PM
  #46
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Anyone who knows anything about goalies know that you can't expect an 18 year old to last too long in the NHL.
You're right, which is why they gave him a light work load and ended up sending him back to Cape Breton. Fleury probably learned more in 20 NHL games than he could have in 50 juniors games. And it's not like he didn't earn the playing time.

Quote:
You are assuming Carter, Kolzig, Witt, Nylander and battaglia will all be gone next year.I also forgot Miller. All of those players will not be back, but not all of them will be gone either. All of those players are better than anybody the Pens have right now though, so even with two of them back, they should be a lot better.
Needless to say, I disagree that Battaglia and Miller are better than Malone or Tarnstrom. And I'm sure a case could be made by Pens fans over Carter and Witt as well.

Even then, I don't like the whole "match-up" argument, I just think the Penguins will be better on paper and they may very well show that they'll also be better on the ice in the remaining month or so of the season.


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03-03-2004, 11:41 PM
  #47
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How exactly has the Pirates gotten better since PNC opened? They are still the same sad bunch that played at Three Rivers. Unless they build an arena that makes it illegal for anyone to play any sort of defense in Pittsburgh that team isn't going to get too much better. The extra revenue from the new arena at best will end up being spent on keep guys who deserve a raise.

The Buffalo team that Barrasso was on was nowhere near as bad as the current Pens bunch. If the Pens are really planning on having a solid team in a few years they wouldn't have allowed their biggest prospect's confidence to take a beating just so Lemieux can make a few bucks selling MAF jerseys.

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03-03-2004, 11:45 PM
  #48
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Well, the new park increased Pirates revenues for a season, but one season of revenues won't buy you great players in baseball. Supposedly, under the new CBA, a season of revenues should be enough to start the Penguins off with some good players, get some wins, get more attendance, and do on.

It'll be two different markets, because keep in mind we're talking post-CBA right now, when it's expected a salary cap will be introduced, it'll be a lot easier for the Pens to cover the cost of good players than it would be for the Pirates.

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03-03-2004, 11:46 PM
  #49
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If the Pens are really planning on having a solid team in a few years they wouldn't have allowed their biggest prospect's confidence to take a beating just so Lemieux can make a few bucks selling MAF jerseys.
Riiiight.

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03-04-2004, 12:06 AM
  #50
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Why can't Pitt and Wash fans just admit neither of them will get the Number 1 pick? We all know the lottery is rigged......in favour of Rick Dudley at all costs

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