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Can we have what it takes?

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Old
12-07-2008, 08:28 PM
  #1
tonidanza
 
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Can we have what it takes?

I dont think the flames can be a serious cup contender. Our prospects SUCK. IMO in this nhl you need to start off as a crap team and build through the draft (boston/bruins/nash/chicago/pitts)

Yes we have franchise players in iginla and phaneuf but we just dont have the young prospects to get us to the promised land.

What do you think we should do? Obviously, sutters going to try to get us there with this core but i just dont see it happening and think a complete rebuild is necessary.

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12-07-2008, 08:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonidanza View Post
I dont think the flames can be a serious cup contender. Our prospects SUCK. IMO in this nhl you need to start off as a crap team and build through the draft (boston/bruins/nash/chicago/pitts)

Yes we have franchise players in iginla and phaneuf but we just dont have the young prospects to get us to the promised land.

What do you think we should do? Obviously, sutters going to try to get us there with this core but i just dont see it happening and think a complete rebuild is necessary.
ummm... im not sure why the prospects effect us being a serious cup contender now... all we need is the players to stick to this system that has been successful and we could easily be a serious cup contender... we have a very good goaltender... an elite offensive defenseman... one of the best shutdown defensemen... all hart calibre winger and well as 3 lines that can score... then we have an excellent 4th line as well

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12-07-2008, 08:46 PM
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IMO the nhl has become a more like the NBA. The first overall is a GAME BREAKER. This couldnt not have been said back in the clutch and grab era. Thats why I think becoming a basement dweller for a couple seasons is really not that bad. You load up on top prospects, wait for their development (1-2 years aka toews, kane, ovy, crosby, malkin, ... anyone drafted in the last 3 years), then draft top talent free agents and voila you have a contender.

I just think calgary's spinning their wheels. They have a good team but its not good enough.

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12-07-2008, 08:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonidanza View Post
I dont think the flames can be a serious cup contender. Our prospects SUCK. IMO in this nhl you need to start off as a crap team and build through the draft (boston/bruins/nash/chicago/pitts)
When did Nashville and Chicago become Stanley Cup contenders?
And for Pittsburgh: they sucked for four or five years and were lucky to do this at a time, when two of the most gifted players of our time turned 18 and needed four top-three picks to get, where they are now.
Remains Boston: Lucic wasn't even a first rounder, Thomas, Savard, Fernandez, Chara, Ryder and even Wheeler have been FA-signings, which leaves us with Kessel as the only real top-10 draft pick.

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12-07-2008, 08:55 PM
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Nashville would have been contenders had their ownership issue not existed. Look at how many players they dumped. Howd nashville get so good? Draft

Chicago is a force. They'll be strong for many years. Howd the get so good? Draft

Boston. Well they have patrice who was a 1st rounder and kessel. Regardless, their low position helped them draft higher 2nd/3rd rounders. Like I said, UFA's can be signed (chara/savard).

Look at the bruins. If their management wasnt so cheap imagine how strong theyd be as well.

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12-07-2008, 09:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonidanza View Post
Nashville would have been contenders had their ownership issue not existed. Look at how many players they dumped. Howd nashville get so good? Draft

Chicago is a force. They'll be strong for many years. Howd the get so good? Draft

Boston. Well they have patrice who was a 1st rounder and kessel. Regardless, their low position helped them draft higher 2nd/3rd rounders. Like I said, UFA's can be signed (chara/savard).

Look at the bruins. If their management wasnt so cheap imagine how strong theyd be as well.
And who were the Predators high draft picks? David Legwand, who is solid hockey player, but certainly not the guy, who wins you a championship on his own. Dumont, Erat, Arnott and Ellis have all been free-agent pick-ups and Shea Weber was 49th overall.
Do you really things player like Hamhuis, Suter and Legwand are worth to tank for years?

Detroit is the best example, that it does not necessarily need high draft-picks to build a strong team.

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12-07-2008, 09:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonidanza View Post
Nashville would have been contenders had their ownership issue not existed. Look at how many players they dumped. Howd nashville get so good? Draft

Chicago is a force. They'll be strong for many years. Howd the get so good? Draft

Boston. Well they have patrice who was a 1st rounder and kessel. Regardless, their low position helped them draft higher 2nd/3rd rounders. Like I said, UFA's can be signed (chara/savard).

Look at the bruins. If their management wasnt so cheap imagine how strong theyd be as well.
yeah but the point still remains that prospects are just prospects... they do not help now... maybe you should look up and down the Flames roster... they have more home grown talent than ever... guys like Iginla, Phaneuf, Regehr, Moss, Boyd, Lombardi, Giordano, Prust, Pardy and Nystrom all were either acquired prior to their first NHL game, undrafted UFAs or products of the Flames draftings... that is still a decent amount of home grown talent... and with Keetley, Irving, Pelech, Negrin, Aulin, Brodie, Ryder, Backlund, Memisz, Wahl and now even Chucko... our prospects don't look so bad... maybe you should learn something about a team before you go off on a rant that showns you know squat

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12-07-2008, 09:15 PM
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But in todays nhl prospects ARENT just prospects. Sure back in the day they were. It was a total crap shoot cause lots of teams drafted based on size. But now with teh new rules, smaller skilled players can flourish. Every year since the lock out, young skilled players are ripping up the league.

Sutter and hamhuis own.... For their age id gladly have them.

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12-07-2008, 09:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonidanza View Post
But in todays nhl prospects ARENT just prospects. Sure back in the day they were. It was a total crap shoot cause lots of teams drafted based on size. But now with teh new rules, smaller skilled players can flourish. Every year since the lock out, young skilled players are ripping up the league.
Why don't you comment on the actual responses in this thread instead of reiterating the same arguments, although they have been already refuted?

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12-07-2008, 09:22 PM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonidanza View Post
But in todays nhl prospects ARENT just prospects. Sure back in the day they were. It was a total crap shoot cause lots of teams drafted based on size. But now with teh new rules, smaller skilled players can flourish. Every year since the lock out, young skilled players are ripping up the league.

Sutter and hamhuis own.... For their age id gladly have them.
but you arent talking about prospects... you are talking about everyday young NHL players... prospects are those guys in the minors that are still developing

and the Flames may not have those elite 18 year olds... but they do have younger NHL players is spades who are producing... when Iginla is one of the older players... you have a pretty young team

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12-07-2008, 09:53 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonidanza View Post
But in todays nhl prospects ARENT just prospects. Sure back in the day they were. It was a total crap shoot cause lots of teams drafted based on size. But now with teh new rules, smaller skilled players can flourish. Every year since the lock out, young skilled players are ripping up the league.

Sutter and hamhuis own.... For their age id gladly have them.
How are prospects today different from prospects pre-cap? The only difference is that prospects today are asked to contribute immediately, whereas in the past teams could take their time and develop them. Too often we've seen prospects get rushed to the NHL when, as 18-year olds, they should be back in junior or on the farm to further develop their skills.

Your argument about prospects and contending is extremely poor. If a team stinks for a very long time, of course they're going to have a lot of very good prospects. Teams like Chicago, Florida, Phoenix, LA, and Pittsburgh were bad for 5 to 8 years, and some remain bad. All these teams with their young core could one day win the Stanley Cup, but they haven't won anything yet.

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12-07-2008, 10:04 PM
  #12
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let's not forget about the Sharks:

trades, 4
free agents, 5
draft selections, 14

14 players like Pavelski, Clowe, Michalek, Setoguchi, and Nabby etc...all scouted, groomed, and prepped throughout the years through good scouting, drafting, and minor league experience. Prust and Boyd were awesome pickups, other than that, I don't see anyone special on our farm team at the moment.

On a more random off topic post, I'd really WANT to see Ryan Clowe in a flames jersey after his contract expires next year. He'll be a perfect fit for the Flames IMO. If he re-ups with the Sharks, I wouldn't mind that as well, since I'm a fan of that team too.


Last edited by Ragestreet: 12-07-2008 at 10:11 PM.
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12-07-2008, 10:14 PM
  #13
Ronald Pagan
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Prust and Boyd were awesome pickups, other than that, I don't see anyone special on our farm team at the moment.
Yeah...

Give your head a shake.

First, there's another guy we picked that doing pretty good right now. His name is David Moss, don't know if you've heard of him but we drafted him and he's scored in 4 straight games now.

Or what about the undrafted guy we signed, Mark Giordano? You know, the guy who's playing really well in a top four role on teh team. He's helping us WIN games. Jeez, yeah though you're right we really haven't picked alot of good players.

Oh, and yeah, we can't talk about Phaneuf because he's just too good.

On the farm...

Pelech is playing great, Ryan Wilson is doing great and Sutter has said he's the first call-up. Chucko is turning his career around with a great all-around season.

Then you look at the minors...

Wahl is over a point a game player

TJ Brodie was named the defenceman of the month

Aulie is at the Team Canada camp

Nemisz is helping his team to the Memorial Cup

Even Aaron frickin Marvin is having a great season

Mod-edit: deleted.


Last edited by Snoil11: 12-07-2008 at 10:17 PM. Reason: Baiting/Flaming
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Old
12-07-2008, 10:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragestreet View Post
let's not forget about the Sharks:

trades, 4
free agents, 5
draft selections, 14

14 players like Pavelski, Clowe, Michalek, Setoguchi, and Nabby etc...all scouted, groomed, and prepped throughout the years through good scouting, drafting, and minor league experience. Prust and Boyd were awesome pickups, other than that, I don't see anyone special on our farm team at the moment.

Nobody doubts, that strong drafting does not benefit a team, but neither of your above mentioned players was drafted with a top-ten pick except for Setoguchi. The last time, the San Jose Sharks drafted top-5 was in 1998, so they actually do not support but refute tonidanza's statement, that it is necessary to tank to become a team, that "has what it takes".

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12-07-2008, 10:32 PM
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First, there's another guy we picked that doing pretty good right now. His name is David Moss, don't know if you've heard of him but we drafted him and he's scored in 4 straight games now.

Or what about the undrafted guy we signed, Mark Giordano? You know, the guy who's playing really well in a top four role on teh team. He's helping us WIN games. Jeez, yeah though you're right we really haven't picked alot of good players.
lol. i guess i forgot to add "minor league guys who made the NHL beginning of the season" to my statement. I am very aware of what the young guys are doing for the team this year and glad that we finally have our 2nd, 3rd, and 4th line putting points up there this year.


Last edited by Ragestreet: 12-07-2008 at 10:40 PM.
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12-07-2008, 10:43 PM
  #16
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Originally Posted by Ronald Pagan View Post
Yeah...

Give your head a shake.

First, there's another guy we picked that doing pretty good right now. His name is David Moss, don't know if you've heard of him but we drafted him and he's scored in 4 straight games now.

Or what about the undrafted guy we signed, Mark Giordano? You know, the guy who's playing really well in a top four role on teh team. He's helping us WIN games. Jeez, yeah though you're right we really haven't picked alot of good players.

Oh, and yeah, we can't talk about Phaneuf because he's just too good.

On the farm...

Pelech is playing great, Ryan Wilson is doing great and Sutter has said he's the first call-up. Chucko is turning his career around with a great all-around season.

Then you look at the minors...

Wahl is over a point a game player

TJ Brodie was named the defenceman of the month

Aulie is at the Team Canada camp

Nemisz is helping his team to the Memorial Cup

Even Aaron frickin Marvin is having a great season

Mod-edit: deleted.
David Moss is just on a hot streak. Once it dies down, he's back to the same 3rd or 4th liner.

I don't care how prospects are doing in the minors. Stephane Yelle had 104 points in the OHL. And technically, everyone is helping there team doing something winning or losing. You are helping the Flames when you go to the game and cheer even.

Phaneuf was a no-brainer. Cmon, if someone offered you $10 for free no strings attached would you take it? Of course, anyone of us would have taken Dion.

I honestly don't care how many 3rd or 4th liners Sutter picks up, they all will go on hot streaks and look good at times but just revert to there own ways. Same with defencemen.

He has a point with drafting, and we aren't that strong in terms of prospects. The Flames have one prospect in the top 50(at 40) Mikeal Backlund. There's no denying I love the kid but Sutter doesn't have much to show in terms of drafting.

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12-07-2008, 10:49 PM
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Originally Posted by bam09 View Post
Phaneuf was a no-brainer. Cmon, if someone offered you $10 for free no strings attached would you take it? Of course, anyone of us would have taken Dion.
If he was such a clear-cut pick, he would play for Atlanta.

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12-07-2008, 10:54 PM
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If he was such a clear-cut pick, he would play for Atlanta.
or any other team that picked ahead of us... including Carolina and Pittsburgh IMO

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12-07-2008, 11:08 PM
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Originally Posted by bam09 View Post
David Moss is just on a hot streak. Once it dies down, he's back to the same 3rd or 4th liner.

I don't care how prospects are doing in the minors. Stephane Yelle had 104 points in the OHL. And technically, everyone is helping there team doing something winning or losing. You are helping the Flames when you go to the game and cheer even.

Phaneuf was a no-brainer. Cmon, if someone offered you $10 for free no strings attached would you take it? Of course, anyone of us would have taken Dion.

I honestly don't care how many 3rd or 4th liners Sutter picks up, they all will go on hot streaks and look good at times but just revert to there own ways. Same with defencemen.

He has a point with drafting, and we aren't that strong in terms of prospects. The Flames have one prospect in the top 50(at 40) Mikeal Backlund. There's no denying I love the kid but Sutter doesn't have much to show in terms of drafting.
Actually he wasn't, he wasn't even the top player on the boards when the Flames picked. The only reason people consider Phaneuf a no brainer is becuase he played for Brent in Red Deer. Had he played for Regina or Kelown or something, everyone would be praising Sutter for a great pick.

We are stronger than that poster, and most people, give them credit for. Sure he has only 1 in the top 50, but the Flames have, IMO, some of the most NHL calibre prospects in the league. Its been a slower process, but they have filled the pool with very solid prospects, and more of the top 6 variety with the last draft. Sure they have no blue chippers, but you know what most teams that don't draft in the top 10, don't have many blue chippers either.

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12-07-2008, 11:51 PM
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you guys are forgetting. If we dont suck balls for 5 years and pick top 10 in the draft, we are never going anywhere. You cant make a great player, they are born, and then scouted by the HF staff.

ask zetterberg.

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12-07-2008, 11:52 PM
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ps. "can we have what it takes"? seriously? thats your topic title?

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12-08-2008, 12:00 AM
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No, but we do have what it takes. We're 8th in the NHL.

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12-08-2008, 12:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bam09 View Post
He has a point with drafting, and we aren't that strong in terms of prospects. The Flames have one prospect in the top 50(at 40) Mikeal Backlund. There's no denying I love the kid but Sutter doesn't have much to show in terms of drafting.
So what. Making an argument based on HF's top 50 prospects is extremely weak.

Our prospects may not be the best in the league, but there is no doubt we are much stronger then say 5 years ago. Guys are slowly starting to develop into the NHL players. Look at the 2003 draft for example. Boyd and Prust are playing important roles on the team this season. Pardy has shown he is capable of playing in this league and is getting better each and every game. Chucko has had a good year in Quad Cities and it looks like he may turn out to be a player still. Add in other players who are very close(Pelech, Negrin, Backlund, Sutter, Armstrong) and the drafting isn't looking as poor as everyone says.

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12-08-2008, 01:13 AM
  #24
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This thread makes no sense.... heck the team is winning and if memory serves me correct they just finished shutting out the best team in the east (road game). I think the prospects are starting to look pretty ok and how does that affect us now... this whole thing is bizarre!

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12-08-2008, 01:27 AM
  #25
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Can We have what it takes?

"Yes we can"- Barrack Obama

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