no, no, no....what im saying is that the rangers are currently still in a rebuild. It may not seem like it but when was the last time the rangers traded away a top prospect for a rental player to make a push for the playoffs? What I was trying to say is that sather has to fill the holes of the players who didnt work out for this organization. The rangers have no high draft picks of their own in the lineup before staal. Look around the league and show me another team that has that. I would bet quite a bit of money that there are very few, if any at all. What I am saying is that NYC is not a city to be okay with a rebuild, therefore sather is doing his best to ice a competitive team(through free agency) while rebuilding from the bottom up(through the draft and some trade(ala zherdev)).
Don't know if you been reading the boards the last fews days but many question if we ever had a rebuild at all. I'm not sure I can argue with them. Remember all those trades that we got picks and kids for? Right now Greg Moore and Blair Betts, thats what we have for Kovalev, Leetch, ect. The best guy we traded for (Umberger) we let go for a pick which we traded to move up to get Korp who is a bubble player. Well if that isn't a <insert Chevy Chase Christmas Vacation Rant here>
Don't know if you been reading the boards the last fews days but many question if we ever had a rebuild at all. I'm not sure I can argue with them. Remember all those trades that we got picks and kids for? Right now Greg Moore and Blair Betts, thats what we have for Kovalev, Leetch, ect. The best guy we traded for (Umberger) we let go for a pick which we traded to move up to get Korp who is a bubble player. Well if that isn't a <insert Chevy Chase Christmas Vacation Rant here>
i agree...most of those picks havent worked out...however i still think we are just towards the end of a rebuild....they have no talent from 25-35 that is home-grown....so they need to use the FA market to get players who can fill those gaps while the younger players grow
they have no talent from 25-35 that is home-grown....so they need to use the FA market to get players who can fill those gaps while the younger players grow
Which of the younger players do you see turning into the top-flight talent this team will need to become a legit Stanley Cup finalist? Frankly I don't see it in the system.
Everything we are seeing from this team is as expected. It was Glen Sather's choice to replace the likes of jagr, Avery and Tyutin with three big FAs. All three (Naslund, Kalin, Redden) had been on a steady decline for AT Least a year or two and play nothing but inconsistent and passive hockey. And on top of the Redden signing, we added the redundant re-signing of Roszy. ..Zherdev was a nice pick-up, but I sure as hell wouldn't mind seeing Tyutin back on our bue line..and that's not even considering the fact that Zherdev only has 2 more points then Fedor since November 1st.
Sather also made the decision not to pay or chase Jagr. maybe a good choice, maybe not. But one thing jagr did was be the man that the other teams went after and planned for. Leaving multi-millionarie guys like Gomez and Drury free. We are seeing this year, that they are only support players that need a big kahuna (be it Jagr or somebody else) above them so that they can play their best game and be effective..
And then all off-season we heard from Sather and Renney that the Rangers were going to play a quick, attacking game featuring guys like Prucha, Cally, Dawes up front and quick puck movers like Redden, Rosy, Kalin etc. on the blue line..This mistake, and the total neglingence of effective size, does not really have to be discussed
Which of the younger players do you see turning into the top-flight talent this team will need to become a legit Stanley Cup finalist? Frankly I don't see it in the system.
there are staples of a good team though....sanguinetti, del zotto, grachev, staal, lundqvist, dubinsky.....they have a lot to look forward to....
Ok, but wasn't it Renneys plan all along to impose a puck moving/fast team which could NOT be done with Jagr and Shanny here.. Jagr liked everything his way and Shanny would be to slow.
Renney is just as much to blame as Sather is. You don't think Sather and Renney both scout players and decide if they should bring them in?
Thank you.
Plus, lets not forget that going into the season this was going to be a "bridge" year to Cherepanov's entrance into the NHL. The media took these deals and signings and ran with them, not to mention the hot start.
Lets go back to the end of last season and the summer - most of us when debating the Jagr situation always brought up that this season and maybe even the next would be a "bridge" to the future team and our expectations really werent that high if you remember.
Now the Rangers are in a major funk despite being in 1st place and unfortunately their top prospect tragically passed away so things are a bit twisted now.
The blame for their performance has to go all around IMO, but lets not forget that our original expectations weren't very lofty to start. We new this wasn't a cup team going in...
As far as the cap goes, sure, Sather has gotten us into a little bit of a mess. He'll have to figure his way out of it - which im a bit apprehensive about.
Last edited by HockeyBasedNYC: 12-08-2008 at 12:33 PM.
They seem to have a solid core of supporting staff which is helpful, but I mean top-flight talent.
as players grow the rangers may find that one of those players are top-flight players in the NHL....also, sometimes it is better to have a group of very good players instead of just one superstar.....
i do agree though that the rangers dont have that game-breaker on offense but that is where i believe cheraponov(RIP) was supposed to come in i believe along with zherdev
You're all wrong. Every damn one of ya! The problem isn't with Renny or Sather. The problem is the month of December. It's an evil month for this team and always seems to have been since I became a fan in '80
You're all wrong. Every damn one of ya! The problem isn't with Renny or Sather. The problem is the month of December. It's an evil month for this team and always seems to have been since I became a fan in '80
You're all wrong. Every damn one of ya! The problem isn't with Renny or Sather. The problem is the month of December. It's an evil month for this team and always seems to have been since I became a fan in '80
Fire December!
funny. nov wasnt that great either. maybe we could just lay nov off.
perhaps the solution is to "retire" slats, move renney to the gm spot and hire tortorella. 2 birds 1 stone kinda thing.
renney always seemed more the gm than coach to me anyway. he has the smarts and the hockey mind and probably the business mind as well, but he lacks in the in game decision making and motivational aspects that are essential to coach players at this level.
lets not forget, messier essentially had him removed from vancouver. mark didnt care for his "system" much either.
I agree that Sather has seemed to sidestep any blame, not sure why. His UFA signings have been very curious. He has actually done a really nice job on the trade front however. Perhaps he should handle the trading and outsource the UFA signings to someone else.
Sather is 2 for 6 in UFA signings this past off season as far as I am concerned. Not a good ratio.
Good:
Voros: Good Value
Naslund: Has played pretty well for us
Bad:
Redden: I didn't understand giving him this contract when it happened and I still don't understand it. To give someone who has declined in the previous two seasons elite #1 D-Man money is just mind boggling.
Rissmiller: The one thing we had plenty of going into this off season was 3rd and 4th line players. So lets sign another one for no apparent reason.
Rozy: More like a re-signing but technically he was a UFA. He is a 2nd pairing D-Man being paid like a #1. Signing him and Redden really made no sense.
Kalinin: Apparently everyone likes this guy around here. Not sure why because he has been a poop cutlet all season long. If it wasn't for Henrik he would be a -30 right now. Instead he is a league leading -15. I know, plus minus isn't a useful stat. How about the human eye? is that a useful? Because my eyes tell me he is horrible.
You're all wrong. Every damn one of ya! The problem isn't with Renny or Sather. The problem is the month of December. It's an evil month for this team and always seems to have been since I became a fan in '80
Fire December!
C'mon, December is enough past the start of the season and is on the other side of the all-star break from the trade deadline...if bad Decembers weren't around, what would we have to talk about on this board?
Maybe we can just give December less time and have November and January each have an extra week?
I agree that Sather has seemed to sidestep any blame, not sure why. His UFA signings have been very curious. He has actually done a really nice job on the trade front however. Perhaps he should handle the trading and outsource the UFA signings to someone else.
Sather is 2 for 6 in UFA signings this past off season as far as I am concerned. Not a good ratio.
Good:
Voros: Good Value
Naslund: Has played pretty well for us
Bad:
Redden: I didn't understand giving him this contract when it happened and I still don't understand it. To give someone who has declined in the previous two seasons elite #1 D-Man money is just mind boggling.
Rissmiller: The one thing we had plenty of going into this off season was 3rd and 4th line players. So lets sign another one for no apparent reason.
Rozy: More like a re-signing but technically he was a UFA. He is a 2nd pairing D-Man being paid like a #1. Signing him and Redden really made no sense.
Kalinin: Apparently everyone likes this guy around here. Not sure why because he has been a poop cutlet all season long. If it wasn't for Henrik he would be a -30 right now. Instead he is a league leading -15. I know, plus minus isn't a useful stat. How about the human eye? is that a useful? Because my eyes tell me he is horrible.
Him signing both Redden and Roszival made no sense. One of them (perferrably Rosy would have been okay)
Rissmiller was a waste
He nailed Voros, Naslund, and Kalinin has been pretty good (-15 is BS)
Instead of hard work, Slats has decided to let the company cash do the work for him since he came to the Rangers. Holik, now Redden, Gomez and Drury. Jagr fell into his lap. So we are in cap hell with a mediocre team. It could be that he was directed to do this by Dolan, but IMO it is no surprise that Don Maloney bailed at the first opportunity to get out of there. He has a team full of prospects in Phoenix, which he seems to like dealing with. I continue to be surprised that the NY media have refused to hold Slats accountable for this mess, after years of his whining that the Rangers money was ruining the league.
as players grow the rangers may find that one of those players are top-flight players in the NHL.
Sure but you can't operate a team under the theory, "One of these 2nd-3rd line players is actually going to be a Marc Savard, so let's not worry."
I asked which of the young players could be seen turning into that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyviper87
also, sometimes it is better to have a group of very good players instead of just one superstar.
1. "Top-flight talent" doesn't mean "superstar." Rick Nash and Zach Parise are a top-flight talents, but they're not of the caliber of Malkin, Ovechkin, or Crosby. Do we have a Nash/Parise-caliber talent in the system? I don't see one. If I could see a team of those, I'd have no worries.
2. Define "very good." I think in Staal they have the makings of a "very good" defenseman. Looking at your list though (sanguinetti, del zotto, grachev, staal, lundqvist, dubinsky), I see:
- three players who have yet to play in the NHL much less be called "very good players" there
- one player (Lundqvist) who shouldn't even be in a conversation about prospects
- and a last (Dubinsky) whom I can see being "good" as in a 2nd/3rd liner but not "very good" as in Rick Nash or Parise.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyviper87
i do agree though that the rangers dont have that game-breaker on offense but that is where i believe cheraponov(RIP) was supposed to come in
That's okay but it still points up the larger problem. You originally said, "they have no talent from 25-35 that is home-grown....so they need to use the FA market to get players who can fill those gaps while the younger players grow."
We seem to now be down to "fill those gaps while that younger player (Cherepanov) grows."
In a sense we're back to my first question: Where's the top-end talent in the system? We seem to be saying that younger talent consisted of one guy (who was, as many have noted, not a lock to be an NHL star anyway).
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyviper87
along with zherdev
I took "that is home-grown" to mean Ranger drafted and developed. Zherdev's four years in Columbus put him out of that category for me.
also, sometimes it is better to have a group of very good players instead of just one superstar.....
Funny, thats what I heard all offseason...how losing Jagr was going to bring this team together...and what a wonderful balanced attack we would be!
So, here we are with a bunch of good players, no superstar (except in net), and people are complaining to no end that we dont score enough. Its the lack of gamebreaker talent that these people are complaining about, but since that talent is very hard to find/acquire, people just NEED scapegoats...which is why Sather and especially Renney are getting fried.
I love the other thread that states the problem is the system. Yes, Lauri Korpikoski and Ryan Callahan are just waiting to bust out offensively
Sure but you can't operate a team under the theory, "One of these 2nd-3rd line players is actually going to be a Marc Savard, so let's not worry."
I asked which of the young players could be seen turning into that.
1. "Top-flight talent" doesn't mean "superstar." Rick Nash and Zach Parise are a top-flight talents, but they're not of the caliber of Malkin, Ovechkin, or Crosby. Do we have a Nash/Parise-caliber talent in the system? I don't see one. If I could see a team of those, I'd have no worries.
2. Define "very good." I think in Staal they have the makings of a "very good" defenseman. Looking at your list though (sanguinetti, del zotto, grachev, staal, lundqvist, dubinsky), I see:
- three players who have yet to play in the NHL much less be called "very good players" there
- one player (Lundqvist) who shouldn't even be in a conversation about prospects
- and a last (Dubinsky) whom I can see being "good" as in a 2nd/3rd liner but not "very good" as in Rick Nash or Parise.
That's okay but it still points up the larger problem. You originally said, "they have no talent from 25-35 that is home-grown....so they need to use the FA market to get players who can fill those gaps while the younger players grow."
We seem to now be down to "fill those gaps while that younger player (Cherepanov) grows."
In a sense we're back to my first question: Where's the top-end talent in the system? We seem to be saying that younger talent consisted of one guy (who was, as many have noted, not a lock to be an NHL star anyway).
I took "that is home-grown" to mean Ranger drafted and developed. Zherdev's four years in Columbus put him out of that category for me.
I know what you mean, but all good players start out as prospects. Unfortunately, those are the home-grown players the rangers have in the system. We will have to wait and see.
"top-flight" players normally are towards the top of a draft(such as top 5-10) and the rangers havent had a pick up there in a while, therefore they draft the players that fall from the top(staal, sanguinetti, del zotto, cheraponov, anisimov, grachev) and hope that, even though they may take a bit longer to make it to the NHL, they have that top-end talent to become at least impact players at the NHL level. IMO that is a very smart strategy, however it doesnt lead to instant gratification as most of those players need to work on many things in order to catch up to their one great strength(see sanguinetti and del zotto with the defensive game). However if they consistently get better in that area and keep their strengths they could be very, very good players.
I think it has a lot to do with what you see in the younger players. When I look at dubinsky, I see a very good second line center. To me, from a second round pick, that is a success. He brings grit and leadership, and on top of that, he is a very well balanced offensive player. He has shown flashes of being a top-flight player in his age-group but he needs to work on consistency(which comes along with being younger). Staal, I agree, will be a very good player and it all depends on the steps he takes over the next couple of seasons to see if he will be either a very good player, or a top-flight defenseman.
Sather has decided to build from the goal out. You can see the evidence by the past 4 1st rounds(staal, sanguinetti, cheraponov, del zotto). 3 of the past 4 first rounders have been defensemen. IMO those were the correct picks to make at those spots. It sucks that the rangers dont have any obvious top-flight offensive forwards in the system right now, however I am hopeful sather will make a good pick with the first rounder this upcoming draft and grab a skilled forward. Whether we like it or not, sather and the rangers were really counting on cheraponov being a top-flight forward for a long time with this organization.
I did mean that the rangers were missing home-grown players, i was just stating that at the beginning of the season, im sure sather thought he was in a pretty good position seeing that he ha sjust traded for a 23 y/o zherdev and that he had a 20y/o cheraponov coming over to play in the NHL next season. Thats a lot of skill from a couple of very young players. Unfortunately that plan did not work out so sather needs to deal with it. That will take time.
