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Leafs trade away first round draft pick... Again

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Old
03-04-2004, 01:13 PM
  #51
kyle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsolution
He did win a Conn Smythe. Which makes him a Conn Smythe Winner !

He has playoffs experience. He won a cup. Wether it was 3000 years ago , 100 years ago or last season ... how is that supposed to matter ? Unless the guy has a serious case of Alzheimer he should still remember those moments pretty well and be a more experienced player for it.

So because he did those things a while ago we should all erase that from our collective memory ? Brian Leetch is one of the few rangers who brings it year after year. He's still one of the best offensive dman out there.

If given the choice between pay the price the bruins paid for Gonchar or the price the leafs paid for Leetch I'd go for Leetch.
As long as you realize he was a consolation prize. Why the Leafs thought they needed Leetch OR Gonchar is beyond me but they got Leetch because Boston beat them to the punch. Aren't the Leafs 2nd (by a point as of Tuesday) in points from their defensemen? Why beef up the aspect that you are already dominating from. Bad move, I think. Leetch should fit in nicely with the old-timers on that roster. Hell, is he even considered a "veteren presence" in that locker room?

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03-04-2004, 01:20 PM
  #52
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The Leafs gave up a lot of quantity, and it could turn into quality, but we don't know that yet. We have a lot of dmen prospects in the system. Trading one for help now makes sense when your whole team is on the other side of 30.

Immonen is a benefit of good drafting. Even if he doesn't turn into anything, he was a marketable pick Toronto got out of the late stages of the draft.

Losing the first round pick and second round pick is going to hurt, but again, the 2nd round pick is somewhere around 55-65 figuring in the UFA comp picks and the first is a later pick, so it's not like Toronto's surrendering its opportunity to pick a Kovalchuk here.

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Old
03-04-2004, 04:09 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyle
As long as you realize he was a consolation prize. Why the Leafs thought they needed Leetch OR Gonchar is beyond me but they got Leetch because Boston beat them to the punch. Aren't the Leafs 2nd (by a point as of Tuesday) in points from their defensemen? Why beef up the aspect that you are already dominating from. Bad move, I think. Leetch should fit in nicely with the old-timers on that roster. Hell, is he even considered a "veteren presence" in that locker room?
Why not improve something you are already good at? Would it be great if the leafs could have gotten an Adam Foote? Yes, but you can't dictate what is on the market so the leafs went after the D-man who they thought would contribute the most to the team. I suppose now you will criticize the Sens for getting Bondra or the Wings for getting Lang. They are 1-2 in goals for so by your logic it was useless to go out and get those guys.

Perhaps they have morgaged some of their future to get him if that is your whole point here, but with their age they need to win now. Personally i think they will have to go through a bit of a building process in the near future with so many players near the end of their career but i would rather end this cup drought and have an extra 1 or 2 years of rebuilding to replace what they gave up in this deal.

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03-04-2004, 04:51 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyle
As long as you realize he was a consolation prize. Why the Leafs thought they needed Leetch OR Gonchar is beyond me but they got Leetch because Boston beat them to the punch. Aren't the Leafs 2nd (by a point as of Tuesday) in points from their defensemen? Why beef up the aspect that you are already dominating from. Bad move, I think. Leetch should fit in nicely with the old-timers on that roster. Hell, is he even considered a "veteren presence" in that locker room?
Are you a bitter leafs fan or a leafs hater ? Not implying anything, just wondering...

Leafs are loading up for a final and ultimate push at a cup. They've got a very old team and are not gonna be any better next year. While I agree that the leafs probably would have been better off with a guy like Foote or a younger Chelios or a Keith Carney there didn't seem to be any available. Still Leetch is not a "consolation" prize at all and nothing to scoff at. He's still an awesome player and I've no doubt that if he has his mind to it he'll make a difference with the leafs. Besides you can never have enough vets and experience.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

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Old
03-04-2004, 04:57 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoseTheo
How many times in the past five years has Toronto traded away their first round draft pick? I know they're getting a good D-Man here, but he's also 36 years old. While other teams do what they can to keep some youth around, it seems like the leafs want to get older.. they may have a couple prospects, but trading away first round draft picks every year won't exactly help out your team in the future. The leafs got Nolan last year (getting rid of two more prospects..!!).

So this year another prospect and 1st round draft pick.. if they dont win the cup soon.. the leafs are going to drop out of contention because their team is just getting older..
Toronto made the right move. Toronto has Carlo Colaiacovo on the way up, as well as well as a few others at the forward position ready to come up soon. Toronto does not need a late 1st round pick to help for 3 or 4 years from now. We, unlike other teams, have to push for now, as that's how our team is built, for now. We've got enough guys for the future, and our late drafting has been decent enough.

Colorado has moved all of their prospects of any strength out over the past while, and nobody gets all over them for it. Toronto was paying the going rate.

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Old
03-04-2004, 05:29 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregStack
Toronto made the right move. Toronto has Carlo Colaiacovo on the way up, as well as well as a few others at the forward position ready to come up soon. Toronto does not need a late 1st round pick to help for 3 or 4 years from now. We, unlike other teams, have to push for now, as that's how our team is built, for now. We've got enough guys for the future, and our late drafting has been decent enough.

Colorado has moved all of their prospects of any strength out over the past while, and nobody gets all over them for it. Toronto was paying the going rate.
Thats my whole point: last year they traded McCauley (a good young player) to get Nolan to get the extra push they needed to win the cup... 7 games into the playoffs later they were packing their bags and getting out the gold equipment. Toronto cant keep doing this forever.. and they're building the team for a cup win NOW without any future in mind... and if they dont win the cup soon... i think you get my point..

Now the difference with Colorado is that, yes they did trade away prospects apparently (I don't know exactly), but their team isnt even half as old as toronto.. last time i heard it was around 28 for team average age.. (I could be wrong).. and please dont compare Toronto to Colorado... its not right.

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03-04-2004, 05:35 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marquis Dee
you think maxim and jarko are players TO should build around? how about boyes?

nolan and leetch for a couple low 1st rounders and some marginal prospects. how good do you really think the prospects TO traded will be? no more more than 3rd liners on TO.

TO kept all the prospects that have a chance of making an impact and added a top 4 d-man with tonnes of experince and leadership.

we win now and NYR might win in 2-4 years....maybe

"'|).
Boyes is on track to be a 2nd line center in SJ in no time. He is TEARING up the AHL at a very young age. Kondratiev made the leafs roster, but wasn't getting the playing time he wanted, so he exercised his contract option to return home. He is playing very very well right now. Immonen was a nothing prospect 6 months ago, but has started playing the lights out, and in many peoples minds is a better prospect than wellwood. He's maturing rapidly. PLUS a 1st and 2nd in this years draft. So many people are saying what a weak draft this is, but its my impression that this draft year is shaping up better than average. Certainly no 96' or 99'. So thats 4 future players for one year and ~1 month(depending on playoffs) of an overpaid, over-the-hill Leetch(although hes still a great d-man).

as a caps fan, i would like to serve GMGM his liver and make him eat it. HE GOT SCHOOLED!

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Old
03-04-2004, 05:38 PM
  #58
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Point of playing in the NHL: Winning the Cup

Point of playing in the NHL by several posters on HF: Be the #1 team in the organizational rankings.

===========

I'm sure there were many people who said Detroit overpaid for an over the hill slug in Chris Chelios.

I mean 2 first rounders and a decent young player like Anders Eriksson? Detroit would certainly be feeling the effect of that trade in 3-4 years when they have no good prospects. [/sarcasm]

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Old
03-04-2004, 05:48 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brodeur
Point of playing in the NHL: Winning the Cup

Point of playing in the NHL by several posters on HF: Be the #1 team in the organizational rankings.

===========

I'm sure there were many people who said Detroit overpaid for an over the hill slug in Chris Chelios.

I mean 2 first rounders and a decent young player like Anders Eriksson? Detroit would certainly be feeling the effect of that trade in 3-4 years when they have no good prospects. [/sarcasm]

It must be nice to be so simple.

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Old
03-04-2004, 06:23 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by st_roland
It must be nice to be so simple.
Pretty much. I didn't hear too mentions of Dan Paille on the Devils board last June. 10 points if you can get the reference.

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Old
03-04-2004, 06:32 PM
  #61
50 Mission Cap
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You can tell when fans are getting nervous about the Laefs doing well. The Leaf bashing posts reach a new level. Very similar to when the Leafs were on their streak back in November/December. I beleive there was a thread bashing the way they cheered back then.

Here's an idea. You guys enjoy your team and we'll enjoy ours. If you put half as much effort into supporting your teams, then maybe your arenas wouldn't be half empty.

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Old
03-04-2004, 08:30 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 50 Mission Cap
You can tell when fans are getting nervous about the Laefs doing well. The Leaf bashing posts reach a new level. Very similar to when the Leafs were on their streak back in November/December. I beleive there was a thread bashing the way they cheered back then.

Here's an idea. You guys enjoy your team and we'll enjoy ours. If you put half as much effort into supporting your teams, then maybe your arenas wouldn't be half empty.
Habs never have a problem with selling tickets.. and they have a 21,000 person capacity..

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Old
03-04-2004, 08:32 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoseTheo
Habs never have a problem with selling tickets.. and they have a 21,000 person capacity..
I don't think he was directing it at you or Habs fans in particular. I think it was more of a general comment.

OT:
For the record though, the Habs might not have problems right now, but they did a few years ago when the team was crap. I'm not trying to start a pissing match, just wanted to be fair.

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Old
03-04-2004, 08:38 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueBlood17
I don't think he was directing it at you or Habs fans in particular. I think it was more of a general comment.

OT:
For the record though, the Habs might not have problems right now, but they did a few years ago when the team was crap. I'm not trying to start a pissing match, just wanted to be fair.
Yeah I know it was a general statement.. and about the habs not selling tickets a few years ago:good point. The whole point of this board was to voice my concern about Toronto turning into a crap team and getting into a similar situation as the habs were a few years ago.. (unlikely, but you never know).

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Old
03-04-2004, 09:52 PM
  #65
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If they traded the first to anybody but the Rangers, I'd be upset. But, odds are, the Rags will blow it.

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03-04-2004, 10:10 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoseTheo
Yeah I know it was a general statement.. and about the habs not selling tickets a few years ago:good point. The whole point of this board was to voice my concern about Toronto turning into a crap team and getting into a similar situation as the habs were a few years ago.. (unlikely, but you never know).
You must have missed the 80's then.. The Leafs sucked badly and still sold out. No team in the NHL can compare fan support to Toronto. They are in a league of their own when it comes to that. And that's not homerism, thats a fact.

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03-04-2004, 10:26 PM
  #67
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http://www.hockeyresearch.com/mfoste.../nhl_attn.html

Seems the Habs are always near the top of the league in attendance according to these stats.

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03-04-2004, 10:47 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Albino
http://www.hockeyresearch.com/mfoste.../nhl_attn.html

Seems the Habs are always near the top of the league in attendance according to these stats.
http://www.canoe.ca/HockeyMontrealAr...oct28_gat.html

And it also seems that the Habs once upon a time did have trouble sellng tickets, which is all my comment was in response too.

Both teams are great hockey markets with tremendous fan bases. End of story.

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03-04-2004, 11:02 PM
  #69
Karl Pilkington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shakes
You must have missed the 80's then.. The Leafs sucked badly and still sold out. No team in the NHL can compare fan support to Toronto. They are in a league of their own when it comes to that. And that's not homerism, thats a fact.
Notice I said: unlikely but you never know

Read what people say in completion before you say anything.

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Old
03-05-2004, 12:13 AM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by st_roland
Boyes is on track to be a 2nd line center in SJ in no time. He is TEARING up the AHL at a very young age. Kondratiev made the leafs roster, but wasn't getting the playing time he wanted, so he exercised his contract option to return home. He is playing very very well right now. Immonen was a nothing prospect 6 months ago, but has started playing the lights out, and in many peoples minds is a better prospect than wellwood. He's maturing rapidly. PLUS a 1st and 2nd in this years draft. So many people are saying what a weak draft this is, but its my impression that this draft year is shaping up better than average. Certainly no 96' or 99'. So thats 4 future players for one year and ~1 month(depending on playoffs) of an overpaid, over-the-hill Leetch(although hes still a great d-man).

as a caps fan, i would like to serve GMGM his liver and make him eat it. HE GOT SCHOOLED!
what have those players done in the NHL? nothing

kondratiev only made the roster out of camp because pilar was on the ir then he was sent to play in the AHL but he had an option in his contract to go home so he did. so i don't know where you got your info on his playing time but check your sources.

this draft is most definatly not an above average draft.

if you saw the leafs game tonight and you still think #2 is over the hill think again. the reason ppl think he was over the hill was because playing with that bunch of over payed floaters and covering poti's ass while he plays 4th forward.

how can a player be over the hill and still a great dman?

the #2 pick is in 2005.

the leafs get a 3rd or 4th too.

"'|).

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Old
03-05-2004, 01:24 AM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shakes
You must have missed the 80's then.. The Leafs sucked badly and still sold out. No team in the NHL can compare fan support to Toronto. They are in a league of their own when it comes to that. And that's not homerism, thats a fact.
Its fact that they have great fan suport, but to say they are in a league of their own is baseless when you look at Montreal, New York and Detroit. You could make a case for any of the 4 having the best fanbase.

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Old
03-05-2004, 01:25 AM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueBlood17
http://www.canoe.ca/HockeyMontrealAr...oct28_gat.html

And it also seems that the Habs once upon a time did have trouble sellng tickets, which is all my comment was in response too.

Both teams are great hockey markets with tremendous fan bases. End of story.
This is from the article

After six homes games, the Canadiens are averaging 19,651 spectators per game, down 665 per match from last season, which was already down from the high of 21,002 in their first full season in the new building in 1996-97

There average when they were struggling is higher than the Leafs. That makes you look stupid my friend.

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Old
03-05-2004, 02:22 AM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand

There average when they were struggling is higher than the Leafs. That makes you look stupid my friend.
Of course their average while struggling is higher than the Leafs. The Bell Centre has one of the (if not highest) seating capacities in the league at 21,500.

The ACC has a seating capacity of 18,800.

You have to look at percentage capacity in order to figure out the real numbers.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/attend..._avg&year=2004

Montreal ranks 12th in that regard.
Toronto is first.

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Old
03-05-2004, 03:48 AM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 50 Mission Cap
I beleive there was a thread bashing the way they cheered back then.
To be fair, that was the product of one confused and bitter Habs fan (I think it was the Habs, atleast). His fellow Mtl supporters were quick to call him on the absurdity of his post.

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Old
03-05-2004, 03:53 AM
  #75
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How much do ticket prices help in sellouts?

Toronto tickets are extremely expensive. I've never been to a game in montreal and i'm wondering what the ticket prices are. We all know lower ticket prices help more sellouts.

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