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Team Toughness?

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Old
12-12-2008, 07:11 AM
  #51
Team_Spirit
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It's the long term effect of playing without Komisarek. And some guys up front should wake up like Higgins and Sergei.. they were feisty at 1st but now they try to rely only on skill.

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12-12-2008, 07:47 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Habs8517 View Post
They are soft as paper, much softer than last year.
Guess the Laraque signing had the opposite effect
Start drafting more canadian players and no more midgets.
Pretty tough for Laraque to do anything while sitting in the pressbox. Bad move by Carbo inserting SKost and Latendresse over Laraque. Show teams take liberties with the team when BGL is out of the lineup.

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12-12-2008, 08:06 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by curtisl1982 View Post
If you watch the hit on Koivo by Armstrong, notice how Chris Higgins doesn't even do a thing. I remeber that play and thought he should have stuck up for Koivu by at least slashing him. Ryder did S**t too.
I've been talking about team toughness all season, and Higgins especially the past two weeks. We're lacking in that department and unfortunately there is little help on the farm. Alex Henry has beat up a half dozen ahler's in the games I've seen so far, and Stewart definately has that edge to his game, but other than that I'm not overly impressed. Chipchura will oblige but it doesn't come naturally for him as we can tell from his NHL play.

It's a problem that comes with drafting US College players and at the same time, shying away from the OHL/WHL.

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12-12-2008, 08:15 AM
  #54
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Yes, there's a glaring lack of team toughness on the Habs...I especially had issues with Plekanec's lack of reaction when Lecavalier and him were at the faceoff circle and he semi-speared him, Pleks didn't even react.

You're at home man! Man up!

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12-12-2008, 08:15 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Montrealistic View Post
What about David Backes (I also like D.J King, but we have Laraque), Troy Brouwer, Chris Stewart, Steve Bernier, Ryan Carter, Bobby Ryan... Im just throwing names out there, young guys with size, Im not sure about their skill- If not, we always have Pacioretty and Chipchura who won't shy away from a physical game.
These are the ones I want for sure, Brouwer especially... not very fast, but plays a bit like Lucic, big mean PF style. Still a prospect though... and I'm not sure Chris has alot of offensive potential, but he could be a good grinder with his style of play, kind of like Raffi Torres.

We need not only size, but size WITH toughness, look at our 4th line, they're playing hard, crashing the net fearlessly while they're far from being the biggest players on the lineup. Someone mentionned Keith Tkachuk, he would be IMO the perfect addition, OK he's on the decline, but still plays the way he always played, hard, and damn we would FINALLY have a player parking his butt in front of the net that is not 180lbs... Jason Chimera would be PERFECT on the lower lines...

I so hope Greg Stewart will have another chance... not saying he'll be a saviour or anything, just that he will add size AND toughness on the ice while being able to provoke things.

A Garnet Exelby, Brendan Witt, Nick Boynton kind of player would also be welcome on D...


Last edited by Vasculio: 12-12-2008 at 08:23 AM.
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12-12-2008, 08:18 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Yes, there's a glaring lack of team toughness on the Habs...I especially had issues with Plekanec's lack of reaction when Lecavalier and him were at the faceoff circle and he semi-speared him, Pleks didn't even react.

You're at home man! Man up!
In Plekanec's case, I think he runs his mouth alot, that's probably why Lecavalier speared him... he looks soft, but in fact he's a gritty little SOB. Ever saw him in front of opposing goalies, trying to push the D on him ? He does that EVERYTIME.

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12-12-2008, 08:20 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Montrealistic View Post
Its not a fighting expert that I think is needed. Im talking about a Josh Gorges type of player, the type that will walk up to the opposing player and make sure he understands that if he crosses the line again he'll have to pay for it. Im not asking for 20 Lucics out there, Im asking for an Iginla-type player- heart, talent, grit. (Doesnt need to be a 40-50 goal scorer..)

Would take a few more like him indeed, never back down, always trying to protect the goalie, not afraid of getting hit... saw him trying to push guys like Iggy and Phaneuf against the Flames, tried to do the same against Vinny... all guys way taller and bigger... and yet, he was there, all the time - every time.



If anything though, I think Carbonneau should put emphasis on this, discipline is good, but there's occasions where you have to act, even if it cost you a 2!

Can't ask the players to be choir boys 59 minutes in a game and play a "punishing style" for 1 minute...

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Old
12-12-2008, 08:28 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Pazuzu View Post
These are the ones I want for sure, Brouwer especially... not very fast, but plays a bit like Lucic, big mean PF style. Still a prospect though... and I'm not sure Chris has alot of offensive potential, but he could be a good grinder with his style of play, kind of like Raffi Torres.

We need not only size, but size WITH toughness, look at our 4th line, they're playing hard, crashing the net fearlessly while they're far from being the biggest players on the lineup. Someone mentionned Keith Tkachuk, he would be IMO the perfect addition, OK he's on the decline, but still plays the way he always played, hard, and damn we would FINALLY have a player parking his butt in front of the net that is not 180lbs... Jason Chimera would be PERFECT on the lower lines...

I so hope Greg Stewart will have another chance... not saying he'll be a saviour or anything, just that he will add size AND toughness on the ice while being able to provoke things.

A Garnet Exelby, Brendan Witt, Nick Boynton kind of player would also be welcome on D...
problem with Stewart is he doesnt have enough skills to play on the top 9, so he'll just take the spot of one of our very few gritty players (Bégin or Kostopoulos for example).

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Old
12-12-2008, 08:58 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Hab-a-maniac View Post
We get beat by teams due to their abilities to take it to us physically. The only pure skill team we'd struggle to beat in a series would be Pittsburgh. More crash-and-bang teams like Philly, New Jersey, Boston and even Toronto can outwork us. Bob needs to re-model our style. There are far too many cream puffs for a team with cup dreams.
this x 1000

that's why we need to deal Plekanec away for a more gritty player with some hands.

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12-12-2008, 09:21 AM
  #60
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Wow, if you guys think that the habs lost last night because of their lack of physical play... well, I'm sorry to say that, but I'm glad you're not the coach...

If you were talking about the lack of MENTAL toughness, now you would have a point to make.

Look at what happened to Ottawa the day they started acquiring "tough canadian boys"... they have no scoring depth now and they've become a dirty team.

Don Cherry's vision is for losers... I guess Detroit needs to be tougher?

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Old
12-12-2008, 09:21 AM
  #61
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How many of these kind of players are out there and even if you name them (Iginla, Dustin Brown, Morrow, Lucic, Doan....) there aren't many available.
I agree 100% that we need grit, but Gainey seems to believe that we can be the next Detroit and play puck possession hockey game in and game out. We are NOT Detroit and not even close.
If Montreal wants to go far in the playoffs, they would need gritty players. Players willing to pay the price and stick up for their teammates.
Players that I think could be available and could be considered gritty / tough players:
Keith Tkachuk
Erik Cole
Jason Chimera
Ian Laperriere
Tuomo Ruutu
Nick Boynton
I've always loved the way Cole played, especially against the Habs. He's not producing in Edmonton and the last time I saw them play, he was buried on the third line without much ice time.

I know he's a UFA at the end of the season but I'd certainly be inquiring if I were Gainey. Halak might interest Edmonton. Maybe they'd be foolish enough to take Lats off our hands...

And I'd love Stortini to be added in the deal.

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12-12-2008, 10:18 AM
  #62
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Don't talk to me about team toughness when our toughest guy isn't even in the line-up. We went and got him for that reason and he's not dressed...

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12-12-2008, 10:20 AM
  #63
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i miss souray
I miss Souray and Rivet

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12-12-2008, 10:21 AM
  #64
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this has been an issue for a while and will continue to be. unless you have the pure skill of detroit, you cannot make it far in the playoffs as a soft team. also, it's horrible for morale when a guy takes a huge hit (ie-OUR GOALIE) and everyone just stands around like nothing happened. embarrassing.

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12-12-2008, 10:21 AM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asterix View Post
Don't talk to me about team toughness when our toughest guy isn't even in the line-up. We went and got him for that reason and he's not dressed...
He's not doing his job.

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Old
12-12-2008, 10:23 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Prudentius View Post
Keep Markov and A. Kostitsyn, trade the other Euro and start drafting english canadians and american.

At least we'll have though boys in a few years from now with Chipchura, Pacioretty, Maxwell and McDonagh. They are not necessarily physical but they don't run away from physical plays unlike the current team of losers that we have.

Please Bob, draft more NA!
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Originally Posted by BigTimer View Post
I've been talking about team toughness all season, and Higgins especially the past two weeks. We're lacking in that department and unfortunately there is little help on the farm. Alex Henry has beat up a half dozen ahler's in the games I've seen so far, and Stewart definately has that edge to his game, but other than that I'm not overly impressed. Chipchura will oblige but it doesn't come naturally for him as we can tell from his NHL play.

It's a problem that comes with drafting US College players and at the same time, shying away from the OHL/WHL.
let me get this straight, you guys are questioning the teams drafting in the past few years, and would prefer the team focus on OHL/WHL players with size and grit?

hmmm, something tells me either you are new fans of the team, or suffer from amnesia... allow me to help refresh your memory:

Year round overall Name/League/Size NHL Career

'89 1 13th Lindsay Vallis, WHL, 6'3 205 1 game BUST
Missed out on: hall of famers Lidstrom or Fedorov from Europe, or Wooley, Drake from NCAA

'90 1 12th Turner Stevenson, WHL, 6'3 220 644 games, 190 pts, 4th liner
Missed out on: Renberg or Kozlov from Europe, or Tkachuk, Weight from NCAA/U.S H.S

'91 1 17th Brent Bilodeau, WHL, 6'4 230 0 games, BUST
Missed out on: Palffy or Ozolinsh from Europe... we actually drafted a few Yanks, Savage, a late pick, turned out pretty good for us.

'92 1 20th David Wilkie, WHL, 6'3 215 167 games, 36 pts, BUST
Missed out on: B.Mironov or Lehtinen from europe, Aucoin from NCAA

'93 1 21st Saku Koivu, Finland, 5'10 183 727 games, 510 pts, Captain 'nuff said
could have had from OHL/WHL pics: Bertuzzi (OHL) or J.Langenbruener (WHL)

'94 1 18th Brad Brown, OHL, 6'3 218 330 games, 29 pts, 7th dman at best
Missed out on: Elias and Modin from Europe, Drury or Turco from NCAA

'95 1 8th Terry Ryan, WHL, 6'1 207 8 games, BUST
missed out on: Dvorak, Sykora from Europe, No U.S players of note drafted

'96 1 18th Matt Higgins, WHL, 6' 213 57 games, 3pts, BUST
Missed out on: Marco Sturm or Marcus Nilsson from Europe, Matt Cullen or Tom Poti from U.S

'97 1 12th Jason Ward, OHL, 6'3 195 336 games, 171pts, 4th liner
Missed out on: Marian Hossa or Huselius from europe, J.Corvo or M.York from U.S

'98 1 12th Eric Chouinard, Q, 6'3 204 90 games, 22 pts, BUST
Missed out on: Kalinin or Skoula from europe, Van Ryn or E.Cole from NCAA

'99 no first round pick... but want to point out what a TERRIBLE draft we had, 11 players selected, grand total of 1 NHL GAME between them all!!! I know the draft is sometimes called a "crap shoot", but COME ON, any of us could do better than that.

'00 1/13 & 1/16 Hainsey(NCAA) & Hossa(WHL) Hainsey= solid top4, Hossa= bust
could have had from OHL/WHL: N Schultz(WHL) or Brad Boyes (OHL)

'01 1/7 & 1/25 Komisarek(NCAA) & Perez(euro) Komi=great top 4, Perez=tearing up KHL
could have had from OHL/WHL: D.Hamhuis (WHL) or D.Roy (OHL)

'02 1 14th Chris Higgins, NCAA, 5'11 188 225 games, 128pts, solid top 6 winger
could have had from OHL/WHL: J.Stoll(WHL), M.Stajan (OHL)

'03 1 10th Andrei Kost, Russia 112 games, 67pts, solid top 6, more to come?
could have had from OHL/WHL: Jeff Carter (OHL), Ryan Getzlaf(WHL)

'04 1 18th Kyle Chipchura, WHL 36 games, 11pts AHLer, bright future in NHL
missed out on : Mezaros or Franzen from Europe, Booth from NCAA

i'll stop there since it's probably too early to properly judge the 05-08 drafts...

So tell me again how it's in our teams best interest to stop picking players from europe or the U.S system, instead focusing on big physical players from the rough and tumble WHL/OHL???

that kind of, no offense, idiotic approach to drafting is EXACTLY what caused the worst decade of Montreal Canadiens hockey that the city has ever seen...

it's funny in a very sad way that the only 1st draft pick in the 90's that was any good was the one where we picked a midget european... oh the irony...

People like to focus on the bad trades that Houle made, or Roy's exodus, but in reality the biggest cause of the teams demise was the abysmal drafting the team made for over a decade... started under S.Savard and continued until A.Savard cleaned up that department and started drafting the best possible players regardless of heritage.

and now, finally out of the darkness of that period, finally boasting a depth of prospect talent befitting of a proud franchise like the Habs, and some of you want a return to the "Western Beef" approach to drafting???

give your a head a shake!

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12-12-2008, 10:25 AM
  #67
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He's not doing his job.
How can he do his job from the press box?

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12-12-2008, 10:31 AM
  #68
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let me get this straight, you guys are questioning the teams drafting in the past few years, and would prefer the team focus on OHL/WHL players with size and grit?

hmmm, something tells me either you are new fans of the team, or suffer from amnesia... allow me to help refresh your memory:

Year round overall Name/League/Size NHL Career

'89 1 13th Lindsay Vallis, WHL, 6'3 205 1 game BUST
Missed out on: hall of famers Lidstrom or Fedorov from Europe, or Wooley, Drake from NCAA

'90 1 12th Turner Stevenson, WHL, 6'3 220 644 games, 190 pts, 4th liner
Missed out on: Renberg or Kozlov from Europe, or Tkachuk, Weight from NCAA/U.S H.S

'91 1 17th Brent Bilodeau, WHL, 6'4 230 0 games, BUST
Missed out on: Palffy or Ozolinsh from Europe... we actually drafted a few Yanks, Savage, a late pick, turned out pretty good for us.

'92 1 20th David Wilkie, WHL, 6'3 215 167 games, 36 pts, BUST
Missed out on: B.Mironov or Lehtinen from europe, Aucoin from NCAA

'93 1 21st Saku Koivu, Finland, 5'10 183 727 games, 510 pts, Captain 'nuff said
could have had from OHL/WHL pics: Bertuzzi (OHL) or J.Langenbruener (WHL)

'94 1 18th Brad Brown, OHL, 6'3 218 330 games, 29 pts, 7th dman at best
Missed out on: Elias and Modin from Europe, Drury or Turco from NCAA

'95 1 8th Terry Ryan, WHL, 6'1 207 8 games, BUST
missed out on: Dvorak, Sykora from Europe, No U.S players of note drafted

'96 1 18th Matt Higgins, WHL, 6' 213 57 games, 3pts, BUST
Missed out on: Marco Sturm or Marcus Nilsson from Europe, Matt Cullen or Tom Poti from U.S

'97 1 12th Jason Ward, OHL, 6'3 195 336 games, 171pts, 4th liner
Missed out on: Marian Hossa or Huselius from europe, J.Corvo or M.York from U.S

'98 1 12th Eric Chouinard, Q, 6'3 204 90 games, 22 pts, BUST
Missed out on: Kalinin or Skoula from europe, Van Ryn or E.Cole from NCAA

'99 no first round pick... but want to point out what a TERRIBLE draft we had, 11 players selected, grand total of 1 NHL GAME between them all!!! I know the draft is sometimes called a "crap shoot", but COME ON, any of us could do better than that.

'00 1/13 & 1/16 Hainsey(NCAA) & Hossa(WHL) Hainsey= solid top4, Hossa= bust
could have had from OHL/WHL: N Schultz(WHL) or Brad Boyes (OHL)

'01 1/7 & 1/25 Komisarek(NCAA) & Perez(euro) Komi=great top 4, Perez=tearing up KHL
could have had from OHL/WHL: D.Hamhuis (WHL) or D.Roy (OHL)

'02 1 14th Chris Higgins, NCAA, 5'11 188 225 games, 128pts, solid top 6 winger
could have had from OHL/WHL: J.Stoll(WHL), M.Stajan (OHL)

'03 1 10th Andrei Kost, Russia 112 games, 67pts, solid top 6, more to come?
could have had from OHL/WHL: Jeff Carter (OHL), Ryan Getzlaf(WHL)

'04 1 18th Kyle Chipchura, WHL 36 games, 11pts AHLer, bright future in NHL
missed out on : Mezaros or Franzen from Europe, Booth from NCAA

i'll stop there since it's probably too early to properly judge the 05-08 drafts...

So tell me again how it's in our teams best interest to stop picking players from europe or the U.S system, instead focusing on big physical players from the rough and tumble WHL/OHL???

that kind of, no offense, idiotic approach to drafting is EXACTLY what caused the worst decade of Montreal Canadiens hockey that the city has ever seen...

it's funny in a very sad way that the only 1st draft pick in the 90's that was any good was the one were we picked a midget european... oh the irony...

People like to focus on the bad trades that Houle made, or Roy's exodus, but in reality the biggest cause of the teams demise was the abysmal drafting the team made for over a decade... started under S.Savard and continued until A.Savard cleaned up that department and started drafting the best possible players regardless of heritage.

and now, finally out of the darkness of that period, finally boasting a depth of prospect talent befitting of a proud franchise like the Habs, and some of you want a return to the "Western Beef" approach to drafting???

give your a head a shake!
Give you own head a shake, in all those draft years better players were available from those leagues and we didn't have the scouting staff to pick them out. All that time you put into that post was a waste. Give yourself a hand.

What's even more pathetic is you completely missed the point of my post. What a morning you just had.

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Old
12-12-2008, 10:34 AM
  #69
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How can he do his job from the press box?
Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

He wasn't doing his job so he's in the press box now.

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12-12-2008, 10:44 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by BigTimer View Post
Give you own head a shake, in all those draft years better players were available from those leagues and we didn't have the scouting staff to pick them out. All that time you put into that post was a waste. Give yourself a hand.

What's even more pathetic is you completely missed the point of my post. What a morning you just had.
actually, if you go back to those WHL/OHL players we picked in the 90's, none of them were longshots or reaches... scouts from many organizations rated them similarly, we just had the bad luck of ending up with them.

the draft is always hit/miss, and every year there are players from any minor league in the world that will slip through the cracks and outperform many players selected above them...

the problem in the 90's was that our management targeted a specific league at the expense of other leagues, and at the expense of drafting the best players their scouts suggested.

it's a product of a mentality very similar to the ones suggested in this thread, and my bad if I misinterpreted your comments

"It's a problem that comes with drafting US College players and at the same time, shying away from the OHL/WHL."

to me it did not seem like there was very much ambiguity there...

where you maybe trying to imply that going the U.S college rout means players won't be NHL ready for longer? if so, well, i don't quite feel like getting into why that's actually a huge benefit to the team from a cap/asset management pov.
and either way, it certainly doesn't make 1 iota of difference regarding why our NHL team lacks toughness... if we need to count on 1st/2nd year players to be the focal point of our team toughness, we're in some trouble.

and frankly, i enjoy looking up stats/hockey topics... especially when confronted with moronic statements to refute.
i'm quite enjoying my morning, thank you.

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Old
12-12-2008, 10:47 AM
  #71
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i agree-

need more grit, less fluff. not enough players want to get dirty on this team. some guys need to understand that the NHL is about instinct, sacrifice, pain, intensity, endurance and power.

just about all the guys we got in this team are nowhere close to displaying those qualities.

Maybe Gorges is the one guy that shows us every game. It should be Saku every game, it should be Kovy every game, should be Markov....

still MUCH work to do. 1st in the conference is still possible, but our boys need to realise that there's already 28 games played..........

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Old
12-12-2008, 11:08 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
actually, if you go back to those WHL/OHL players we picked in the 90's, none of them were longshots or reaches... scouts from many organizations rated them similarly, we just had the bad luck of ending up with them.

the draft is always hit/miss, and every year there are players from any minor league in the world that will slip through the cracks and outperform many players selected above them...

the problem in the 90's was that our management targeted a specific league at the expense of other leagues, and at the expense of drafting the best players their scouts suggested.

it's a product of a mentality very similar to the ones suggested in this thread, and my bad if I misinterpreted your comments

"It's a problem that comes with drafting US College players and at the same time, shying away from the OHL/WHL."

to me it did not seem like there was very much ambiguity there...

where you maybe trying to imply that going the U.S college rout means players won't be NHL ready for longer? if so, well, i don't quite feel like getting into why that's actually a huge benefit to the team from a cap/asset management pov.
and either way, it certainly doesn't make 1 iota of difference regarding why our NHL team lacks toughness... if we need to count on 1st/2nd year players to be the focal point of our team toughness, we're in some trouble.


and frankly, i enjoy looking up stats/hockey topics... especially when confronted with moronic statements to refute.
i'm quite enjoying my morning, thank you.
Did it not occur to you that my comment was referring to the ban on fighting in college hockey?

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Old
12-12-2008, 11:18 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by evilstanley View Post
i agree-

need more grit, less fluff. not enough players want to get dirty on this team. some guys need to understand that the NHL is about instinct, sacrifice, pain, intensity, endurance and power.

just about all the guys we got in this team are nowhere close to displaying those qualities.

Maybe Gorges is the one guy that shows us every game. It should be Saku every game, it should be Kovy every game, should be Markov....

still MUCH work to do. 1st in the conference is still possible, but our boys need to realise that there's already 28 games played..........
There is more than one guy you can say shows up every game. I'd put Koivu ahead of Gorges. He constantly battles bigger players and comes out with the puck. Markov is a pretty constant presence back there. Kostopoulos always plays full throttle. Begin tries to, but IMHO he can't play more than 2-3 in a row or he wears down and loses his "jump".

Kovy can be a bit inconsistant, but the last 2 years the effort is there 90% of the time. This year he is snakebitter scoring wise, not from a lack of effort.

Tanguay Plekanec S.Kost are guys that have had a lot of ups and downs so far.

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12-12-2008, 11:24 AM
  #74
evilstanley
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
There is more than one guy you can say shows up every game. I'd put Koivu ahead of Gorges. He constantly battles bigger players and comes out with the puck. Markov is a pretty constant presence back there. Kostopoulos always plays full throttle. Begin tries to, but IMHO he can't play more than 2-3 in a row or he wears down and loses his "jump".

Kovy can be a bit inconsistant, but the last 2 years the effort is there 90% of the time. This year he is snakebitter scoring wise, not from a lack of effort.

Tanguay Plekanec S.Kost are guys that have had a lot of ups and downs so far.
i spose what u said is true. Nonetheless, not enough guys are doing it right, and the ones that are, are not doing it ENOUGH so we can honestly say our team is NOT tough to play against. thats what i wanted to say =)

i mean come on--- it's been 100 years already. 100 years of battling through games, against odds, bigger opponents and 24 stanley cups and all the scars to show for it.

somehow, THIS YEAR, the 100th year, players have decided to slack. i dont know man, to me its borderline disrespectful to their teammates, the fans, and their predecessors.

i mean-- dont they KNOW already, that after one hundred years of pride and glory, all it takes is an 82 game effort??? i mean, come on guys WORK FFS.

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12-12-2008, 11:26 AM
  #75
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Originally Posted by BigTimer View Post
Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

He wasn't doing his job so he's in the press box now.
He actually is doing his job when in the line-up. Because he doesn't fight someone doesn't mean that he's not doing his job. To think that is not understanding the job of an enforcer, especially one of Laraque's caliber and reputation.

An example... Colton Orr, the night before we faced the Rangers, was all over Crosby. Did you see him do anything in our game? Laraque was in the line-up.

Another example... Lucic decided to fight Komo. The next game, Laraque was shadowing him. Lucic crapped his pants on every shift. He scored one goal when Kovalev was on the ice. Laraque did his job in spite of not fighting.

Those are only two small examples but there are plenty like that. People see inaction as not doing a job. That's a big lack of knowledge of how an enforcer works.

Now people can accuse him of not being fast enough, not having good hands... that's fine. But to say that he's not doing his job is simply not true.

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