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Old
12-16-2008, 08:35 PM
  #26
Carnell
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i do, for one. having grown up going to the OB in the 70s and 80s and the arena in the 90s, having those places in the city was special for a lot of reasons.

i think it's terrible to throw these places up in the middle of nowhere. sure, if they start winning, people will go but that's beside the point - it's just a perpetuation of a pretty lousy (imo) culture down there where people get in their cars for everything and what *could* be a more social experience ends up being "get in the car, drive for 30 minutes, sit in traffic for 20 minutes, park, watch game... rinse repeat" exercise in isolation. you get some of that no matter where you are and perhaps the AA arena is no better now but at least there's the potential. in sunrise, you have *nothing*, imo. sawgrass? that's exciting? the same old strip malls every 5 miles? my folks live about 10 minutes from the BAC so i know the route. i don't see what folks do in the area on a nightly basis before and after the games but i can't imagine it being very exciting. for a little contrast, take boston - the arena's downtown and the area right around it is a bustling pocket of activity on game nights (many nights during the year). you have restaurants and pubs packed with people meeting for dinner or a drink before the game. same goes for after a game. fenway is the same deal. it's a completely different experience, a social experience. imo, it's *much* better. we didn't have that at the miami arena (not really at least) but there was at least the possibility of it.

idk, looking out at the everglades from the BAC doesn't really do it for me.

over


I have to agree, In Vancouver at least our NHL arena and CFL (canadian football) stadium (60,000 domed stadium) are right in the downtown core, walking distance as in step off the metro cross the street and your at the arena. You Can walk about ten minutes to the club and bar district or ride the metro two further stops to the club and bar district. The metro extends into the suburbs with two further lines being built into the suburbs and it is the best way into the city because there are no highways into the city. Also Vancouvers Downtown core in a penisula in the pacific ocean and anew 35,000 seat outdoor soccer stadium is to be built on the waterfront at the pacific terminus of the metro.

Honestly i couldnt imagine building a stadium or arena in the suburbs.

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12-16-2008, 08:49 PM
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Honestly i couldnt imagine building a stadium or arena in the suburbs.
It's funny because I look at it exactly the opposite. I hate going to games in Tampa because the arena is downtown and it's just such a hassle getting in and out.

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12-16-2008, 09:02 PM
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thats why you need a good metro, i live in the suburbs drive 5 mins to a local mall park for free, pay 1.75 get on the metro that goes every 6 to 10 mins til 1.30 am, hop off the metro 20 mins of stress free travel later, walk down the metro stairs, cross the street and im at the arena.

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12-16-2008, 09:18 PM
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It's funny because I look at it exactly the opposite. I hate going to games in Tampa because the arena is downtown and it's just such a hassle getting in and out.
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thats why you need a good metro, i live in the suburbs drive 5 mins to a local mall park for free pay 1.75 get on the metro that goes every 6 to 10 mins til 1.30 am hope off the metro 20 mins of stress free travel later, walk down the metro stairs cross the street and im at the arena.
exactly but good public transportation in FL is a rare bird. it's been a long time since i've been in downtown tampa but i'm guessing they still do not have any kind of decent PT.

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12-16-2008, 10:42 PM
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I like the location. Miami has never seemed appropriate for hockey to me. And I like that there's plenty of parking right there, restaurants, shopping before the game, don't have to go through regular streets with a million lights getting there, etc. Agree that public transportation could be better though.

I love it when I'm flying over the area and see BAC with the vast expanse of the Everglades right next to it. It's so awesome.

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12-16-2008, 10:54 PM
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exactly but good public transportation in FL is a rare bird. it's been a long time since i've been in downtown tampa but i'm guessing they still do not have any kind of decent PT.
That wouldn't really matter to me. I drive in from Orlando anyway, so I have to deal with the downtown traffic regardless.

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12-17-2008, 06:17 PM
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If the arena was anywhere else, I wouldn't have had season tickets for the last 10+ years...

Perfect location... parking's a breeze... so many highways nearby you can be at the beach in 15 minutes from there...

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12-17-2008, 06:32 PM
  #33
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exactly but good public transportation in FL is a rare bird. it's been a long time since i've been in downtown tampa but i'm guessing they still do not have any kind of decent PT.
No they don't. Tampa's bus system is about as bad as everywhere else in Florida. Downtown Tampa is a ghost town all its own. It looks like it could be a cool place to be, some nice architecture, some decent museums, but when the sun goes down there is very little downtown except a few scummy bars. To top it off, most of the direct surroundings of the St. Pete Times Forum is just a collection of dirt lots used to exploit fans into overpaying for a parking spot.

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12-18-2008, 04:47 AM
  #34
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had former panthers owner wayne huizenga and current miami heat owner mickey arison worked out their differences just over a decade ago, the cats would rightfully be playing at the american airlines arena in the state's most recognizeable city, and just a stone throw away from south beach. the entertainment that awaits panther fans before and after games today? sawgrass mills mall. a mall, which is almost entirely closed at game's end. no sort of public transportation to and feom the bank atlantic center. and I don't want to hear the safety concerns regarding downtown maimi, which is no worse than any other major city's downtown. the cats began in miami for very practical reasons (miami arena was already up) and left over a peni5 measuring contest two of the city's professional sports teams' owners. absolute shame.
This reminds me of Scotiabank Place here in Ottawa. It's in the suburb of Kanata, which was it's own city until a few years ago, and the only access to it is the 417 which shrinks to only 4 lanes for half the drive. Any 7:00 or 7:30 game, you will invariably be stuck in rush hour traffic with the hoards of government workers who live in Kanata, and commute to and from downtown everyday. In theory, the rink is 20-30 minutes from downtown, but I've been leaving my downtown condo shortly after 4 pm just to make it in time for warmups, and to beat the ridiculous line of people trying to get into the parking lots.

Downtown arenas are without a doubt in my mind, the way to go. There's always going to be some sort of transit plan driven by the entertainment district, as demand dictates. Convenient mass transit allows people to free themselves of their cars, less traffic, less parking space, easier to get to, etc...

Random tangent, maybe, but the rink here in Ottawa drives me nuts. It's gotten to the point where I don't even care if I go anymore, and I just moved here from a non-NHL city, and had never been more excited in my life, to be in a city where I could essentially see an NHL game at will.

Just my thoughts, lol.

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12-18-2008, 08:37 AM
  #35
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This reminds me of Scotiabank Place here in Ottawa. It's in the suburb of Kanata, which was it's own city until a few years ago, and the only access to it is the 417 which shrinks to only 4 lanes for half the drive. Any 7:00 or 7:30 game, you will invariably be stuck in rush hour traffic with the hoards of government workers who live in Kanata, and commute to and from downtown everyday. In theory, the rink is 20-30 minutes from downtown, but I've been leaving my downtown condo shortly after 4 pm just to make it in time for warmups, and to beat the ridiculous line of people trying to get into the parking lots.

Downtown arenas are without a doubt in my mind, the way to go. There's always going to be some sort of transit plan driven by the entertainment district, as demand dictates. Convenient mass transit allows people to free themselves of their cars, less traffic, less parking space, easier to get to, etc...

Random tangent, maybe, but the rink here in Ottawa drives me nuts. It's gotten to the point where I don't even care if I go anymore, and I just moved here from a non-NHL city, and had never been more excited in my life, to be in a city where I could essentially see an NHL game at will.

Just my thoughts, lol.
That sucks that you have to leave so early, but it's nothing like that here in South Florida just because the arena isn't downtown.

It's just over 45 miles from my house in South Florida to the arena, but I can drive it from driveway to parking spot in 35-40 minutes.

If the arena were in downtown Miami, it would be over 60 miles and take 1.5 hours because of traffic.

Keep in mind, Palm Beach County is the largest county east of the Mississippi and has over 1.3 million residents.

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12-18-2008, 09:19 AM
  #36
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Downtown arenas are without a doubt in my mind, the way to go. There's always going to be some sort of transit plan driven by the entertainment district, as demand dictates. Convenient mass transit allows people to free themselves of their cars, less traffic, less parking space, easier to get to, etc...
just about anywhere but the banana republic of FL that would be true. unfortunately, it seems like there aren't or weren't ever any city planners at all (or the ones they employ are clueless).

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12-18-2008, 10:37 AM
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just about anywhere but the banana republic of FL that would be true. unfortunately, it seems like there aren't or weren't ever any city planners at all (or the ones they employ are clueless).
The BAC is pretty easy to get in and out of without that much hassle. The AAA is a different story. Anytime I went to games there, especially in the 06 playoffs, I parked about five bloced west of the arena because, A-it was cheaper ($20 compared to $60 across from the arena), and B-because I can get out and get right onto I-95. But overall, the AAA is crazy to get out of, especially if you park by Bayside in the garage.

Speaking on the Marlins, its going to be just as crazy going to the new stadium at the OB site. THAT area is going to need to some artery roadwork, otherwise its going to be a mess. The best arena/stadium in South Florida is Dolphin Stadium and the BAC i think. Both are the easiest to get to, and the quickest to get out of, especially Fin Stadium during a afternoon/weekday Marlin game lol.

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12-18-2008, 11:04 AM
  #38
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The BAC is pretty easy to get in and out of without that much hassle. The AAA is a different story. Anytime I went to games there, especially in the 06 playoffs, I parked about five bloced west of the arena because, A-it was cheaper ($20 compared to $60 across from the arena), and B-because I can get out and get right onto I-95. But overall, the AAA is crazy to get out of, especially if you park by Bayside in the garage.

Speaking on the Marlins, its going to be just as crazy going to the new stadium at the OB site. THAT area is going to need to some artery roadwork, otherwise its going to be a mess. The best arena/stadium in South Florida is Dolphin Stadium and the BAC i think. Both are the easiest to get to, and the quickest to get out of, especially Fin Stadium during a afternoon/weekday Marlin game lol.
it will be interesting to see how the new stadium works out. i have fond memories of parking in random folks' driveways going to fins games as a kid. don't ever remember THAT much traffic, though, and they had 80k routinely.

i do agree that it's very easy to get in and out of the BAC. i guess in a land where everything revolves around the car, that's something to celebrate. as i said though, my criteria are somewhat different. interestingly, i'd guess that probably 20-30% of fans drive to games at the garden or fenway. there's a hugh parking lot at the last T stop (alewife) on the border of suburbia where many people drive to and train in from. you also, of course, get tons of folks who live in greater boston coming and they typically use PT.

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12-18-2008, 11:19 AM
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I'm glad I live in FL where I don't have to pay for public transport to be built and operated for the sake of going to watch sports and some other such entertainment. Also, I don't need to have a bunch of sports fans at the places I like to go to drink and eat before or after a game. Therefore, for me the BAC is perfect in location and access. JMO.

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12-18-2008, 12:54 PM
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I'm glad I live in FL where I don't have to pay for public transport to be built and operated for the sake of going to watch sports and some other such entertainment. Also, I don't need to have a bunch of sports fans at the places I like to go to drink and eat before or after a game. Therefore, for me the BAC is perfect in location and access. JMO.
missing the point entirely, kw, but that's ok. the point was that, usually, in large cities, you have decent public transportation and that can help support a sports arena downtown. florida is a joke in that respect. they don't know how to plan. miami is awful. BAC has worked out in that it's at the confluence of several big arteries. still, doesn't make it enjoyable for me. one of the things i really enjoy about pro sports is the way it brings a community together. i've been saturated with success here in boston with championship after championship which, although i didn't root for terribly hard, was still very enjoyable in the community sense. the arrangement with dolphin stadium and the BAC, imo, diminishes that somewhat.

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12-18-2008, 09:47 PM
  #41
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That sucks that you have to leave so early, but it's nothing like that here in South Florida just because the arena isn't downtown.

It's just over 45 miles from my house in South Florida to the arena, but I can drive it from driveway to parking spot in 35-40 minutes.

If the arena were in downtown Miami, it would be over 60 miles and take 1.5 hours because of traffic.

Keep in mind, Palm Beach County is the largest county east of the Mississippi and has over 1.3 million residents.
For me it's different story, i live in Miami Beach, probably about 35-40 miles from arena. During weekdays after the work i won't even try to go see games, northbound traffic is horrible, during the weekends it takes about 45 minutes, also coming coming back from game (weekday or weekend).

Miami Arena was different story, i left home about 7:15pm and I arrived to arena when they were singing anthems. Sometimes I even took a bus (Public transportation in Miami-Dade county is horrible except in Miami Beach, you get anywhere handily).

I didn't get that largest county part, is it area wise? Miami-Dade county has about 2.2 million residents.

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12-18-2008, 11:09 PM
  #42
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missing the point entirely, kw, but that's ok. the point was that, usually, in large cities, you have decent public transportation and that can help support a sports arena downtown. florida is a joke in that respect. they don't know how to plan. miami is awful. BAC has worked out in that it's at the confluence of several big arteries. still, doesn't make it enjoyable for me. one of the things i really enjoy about pro sports is the way it brings a community together. i've been saturated with success here in boston with championship after championship which, although i didn't root for terribly hard, was still very enjoyable in the community sense. the arrangement with dolphin stadium and the BAC, imo, diminishes that somewhat.
Missing the point? What point? I wasn't responding to a specific point. But since you did, obviously you're missing my point, zG, but that's ok. I don't want to turn this into a political discussion but let's just say your statements are pretty ignorant of the way planning and decisions are made regarding public transit. How much is it worth to "bring the community together"?

You don't like the plan in Florida. I don't like the plan in Boston. It's just preference based on a number of factors. So please stop lecturing me on what I can think.

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12-18-2008, 11:49 PM
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Way too much urban sprawl in S. Florida for public transportation to ever really work effectively.

The BAC is located perfectly for our car-dependent society.

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12-19-2008, 02:45 AM
  #44
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This reminds me of Scotiabank Place here in Ottawa. It's in the suburb of Kanata, which was it's own city until a few years ago, and the only access to it is the 417 which shrinks to only 4 lanes for half the drive. Any 7:00 or 7:30 game, you will invariably be stuck in rush hour traffic with the hoards of government workers who live in Kanata, and commute to and from downtown everyday. In theory, the rink is 20-30 minutes from downtown, but I've been leaving my downtown condo shortly after 4 pm just to make it in time for warmups, and to beat the ridiculous line of people trying to get into the parking lots.

Only 4 lanes? In Vancouver i can only think of one stretch of about 5km where there is more than 4 lanes! and they become HOV lanes.


KWgoon of course you hvae a right to an opppinion and don't get me wrong with my rebuttal i simply see it the other way.

North America for the most part is built on the premise of private transport however with the rising energy costs coupled with damageing polutants fumes from cars provide, it no longer makes sense to rely solely on private transportation.

People need a cheap alternative to a car which for some is a very expensive luxury, and like i said oil is an outdated dwindling abusive (to our enviroment) power source.

Although i think the heart of your argument is that you as a private citizen shouldn't have to subsidize anyone who wishes to travel upon there own free will. That is oppinion something i can't argue with.

I would like to point out all major world cities have medium to extensive public transit systems i.e. New York, London, Paris, Tokyo it is only in the southern and western united states where public transit takes a back seat to private transit.

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12-19-2008, 09:06 AM
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Missing the point? What point? I wasn't responding to a specific point. But since you did, obviously you're missing my point, zG, but that's ok. I don't want to turn this into a political discussion but let's just say your statements are pretty ignorant of the way planning and decisions are made regarding public transit. How much is it worth to "bring the community together"?

You don't like the plan in Florida. I don't like the plan in Boston. It's just preference based on a number of factors. So please stop lecturing me on what I can think.
yes, you missed the point. your post CLEARLY said that you are glad you don't live somewhere where public money goes to finance transportation for sporting venues. that's completely off-point. nobody ever suggested that. that's so out of left field, it's not even missing the point.

you can think whatever you want and say whatever you want. i'm telling you what i know from a bit of inside knowledge regarding planning down there but it doesn't take a genius to tell you the city back-asswards. PT is not going to be the only answer down there with all the sprawl, sure, but can the city get *something* right? and yes, i do know a bit about city planning - a good friend and former roommate with a masters degree from harvard in planning has worked on projects in boston, for the world bank and now all over spain. i'm not a planner but i have some exposure to the work. having said that, shall we count the moronic planning decisions down there that anybody can see? metrorail? the arena? how'd bayside turnout? love the 2 lanes down us1 so buses that nobody uses (perhaps if they went somewhere useful or were connected to a decent bus system...) can cruise at 40mph whilst the people in cars spend 30 minutes to travel 1 mile. they simply don't do planning well in any area.

lastly, how much is it worth to bring the community together? everything, i'd say.

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12-19-2008, 02:07 PM
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yes, you missed the point. your post CLEARLY said that you are glad you don't live somewhere where public money goes to finance transportation for sporting venues. that's completely off-point. nobody ever suggested that. that's so out of left field, it's not even missing the point.

you can think whatever you want and say whatever you want. i'm telling you what i know from a bit of inside knowledge regarding planning down there but it doesn't take a genius to tell you the city back-asswards. PT is not going to be the only answer down there with all the sprawl, sure, but can the city get *something* right? and yes, i do know a bit about city planning - a good friend and former roommate with a masters degree from harvard in planning has worked on projects in boston, for the world bank and now all over spain. i'm not a planner but i have some exposure to the work. having said that, shall we count the moronic planning decisions down there that anybody can see? metrorail? the arena? how'd bayside turnout? love the 2 lanes down us1 so buses that nobody uses (perhaps if they went somewhere useful or were connected to a decent bus system...) can cruise at 40mph whilst the people in cars spend 30 minutes to travel 1 mile. they simply don't do planning well in any area.

lastly, how much is it worth to bring the community together? everything, i'd say.
You just can't stop lecturing to people - I wholeheartedly recommend you see a good psychiatrist at Harvard about that pesky need to prove your opinion is always right. BTW, since you're in Boston, you can take the T.

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12-19-2008, 08:44 PM
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i do know a bit about city planning - a good friend and former roommate with a masters degree from harvard in planning has worked on projects in boston, for the world bank and now all over spain. i'm not a planner
lolz

You're wasting you city planning expertise knowledge because better transportation/ moving team to downtown won't do squat for bringing the community together down here. There are too many diffrent cultures. people here do not give a crap about the teams. In boston sports brings the community together cause there people are passionate about the teams. You cant compare boston to miami cause they are completely different. Sports will never bring the community together here. beside public transportation isn't chic and we're talking about miami.

as to the current location, I like it. easy to get to and plenty of free parking.

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12-20-2008, 09:07 AM
  #48
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as to the current location, I like it. easy to get to and plenty of free parking.
And even if they start charging for parking you can always park in Sawgrass Mills

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12-20-2008, 10:34 AM
  #49
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You just can't stop lecturing to people - I wholeheartedly recommend you see a good psychiatrist at Harvard about that pesky need to prove your opinion is always right. BTW, since you're in Boston, you can take the T.
nice. so you insult me by saying

Quote:
I don't want to turn this into a political discussion but let's just say your statements are pretty ignorant of the way planning and decisions are made regarding public transit.
i refute that so you insult me again, then pack up your toys and walk away?

let me be clear - i'm not lecturing anybody. different cities offer different lifestyles and, of course, everyone's entitled to their opinions and preferences. i threw mine out there, agreeing with others who had posted from outside of FL. that's it. don't conflate that with the points about public planning in FL.

regarding that second issue, i'll concede and shut up if you refute my claim. i threw out some examples of failed planning. have any counter examples?

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12-20-2008, 10:41 AM
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lolz

You're wasting you city planning expertise knowledge because better transportation/ moving team to downtown won't do squat for bringing the community together down here. There are too many diffrent cultures. people here do not give a crap about the teams. In boston sports brings the community together cause there people are passionate about the teams. You cant compare boston to miami cause they are completely different. Sports will never bring the community together here. beside public transportation isn't chic and we're talking about miami.

as to the current location, I like it. easy to get to and plenty of free parking.
thank you. yes, i know boston and florida are different. guess what, though? there area plenty of different cultures in boston. huge puerto rican population, huge chinese population, irish, brazilian, yada yada yada. that's not the big difference, imo. the biggest difference is that the fan base is generations old here. you see a loyalty we're only beginning to see with the fins.

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