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Old
12-16-2008, 07:23 PM
  #26
Ronald Pagan
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Originally Posted by bam09 View Post
Well let's review

Chucko - Not played an NHL game, not worth a first round pick
could have had(in same round): Schremp, Cory Schneider, Mike Green, Jeff Schultz or Mark Fistric
LOL, yeah too bad we didn't nab that gem.

Fact of the matter is that you have no clue about Chucko by making this statement.

Quote:
Prust- Played about 12 games I'd say, you can get an enforcer anywhere, not worth a high third
could have had: Franzen, Edler, Sekera, Pogge
So a 3rd round gamble that will turn into an NHL player is a bad pick? I guess every other GM in the league is a terrible drafter as well because they ALL passed up Franzen in MULTIPLE drafts.

Quote:
Seitsonen- Not played an NHL game for the Flames- has he ever played an NHL game? Awful pick
could have had: Torre Mitchell or Ryan Callahan(NHLers)
Seriously?

Quote:
Hogg- Not played an NHL game- awful pick
could have had: same as above
LOL it keeps getting better? So a 6th round pick that doesn't turn into anything is an awful pick? Do you really believe that?

Quote:
Wikner- Bust
could have had: Brouwer or Campoli

Schenider- Bust
could have had: Jannik Hanssen

Spratt- Bust
Yeah Spratt's a total bust of a 9th round pick you're right. And damnit too bad we didn't grab Campoli jeez what was Sutter thinking?!?!

Terrible.


Cracknell- In AHL[/QUOTE]

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12-16-2008, 09:14 PM
  #27
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That's the problem right there. Kris Chucko does not project to have a high upside and has yet to play an NHL game. So making fun of Schremp is truely stupid on your part, as he's played in the NHL and is talented enough to play in a top 6.

If you like the Prust pick I don't know what to say. You can pick up enforcers anywhere, but no we had to waste a third on him. I don't care how many times he was passed on, fact is your covering up Sutter and other GMs because they weren't smart enough to draft Franzen. But I mean who wants a goal scorer there when you can have the all important 4th line enforcer that logs 5-10minutes a game if he's lucky.

I don't know about you, but if I had the choice of a guy playing in the NHL and not playing in the NHL, I'd rather the NHLer. But obviously you prefer guys that are 3rd and 4th line checkers or players that don't make the NHL. It's stupid enough to insult me or those players, when this great GM took a guy that DIDN'T even make the NHL.

That's your problem right there. OMG we messed up on a 9th round pick! Well guess what when there is NHLers to be had, I don't care where you find them this late. Fact is Sutter can't.

Your so full of it bud. There is a damn good reason we are 28th in prospect ratings, but you guys have your head so far up Sutter's ass you don't know why.

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12-16-2008, 09:36 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bam09 View Post
Well let's review

Chucko - Not played an NHL game, not worth a first round pick
could have had(in same round): Schremp, Cory Schneider, Mike Green, Jeff Schultz or Mark Fistric

Prust- Played about 12 games I'd say, you can get an enforcer anywhere, not worth a high third
could have had: Franzen, Edler, Sekera, Pogge

Boyd- Great pick, props to Sutter

Seitsonen- Not played an NHL game for the Flames- has he ever played an NHL game? Awful pick
could have had: Torre Mitchell or Ryan Callahan(NHLers)




Hogg- Not played an NHL game- awful pick
could have had: same as above

Pardy- Solid pick, good value
could have had: Kari Ramo(its close)

Wikner- Bust
could have had: Brouwer or Campoli

Schenider- Bust
could have had: Jannik Hanssen

Spratt- Bust


Cracknell- In AHL
Thats a pretty comical post. All the players you mentioned were steals. They where a result of both luck and good drafting by the other teams. Theres no way you can blame the Flames for not drafting these guys.

Franzen in particular, He was passed up 6 years in a row by 30 teams every year. Thats 1260 times he's been passed over. Theres no way you can blame Sutte for not taking him.

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12-16-2008, 10:49 PM
  #29
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Well correct me if I'm wrong but shouldn't a good drafter be nabbing a fair amount of steals? Not getting steals just proves Sutter isn't a good drafter. Any GM can grab the occasional NHLer late, but a good GM can consistently find them anywhere.

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12-16-2008, 11:08 PM
  #30
Leperus Leprechuan
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I'd consider Boyd a steal, even Phaneuf( he was the best player in his draft year and we got him 9th) Pardy lloks like he might be one as well.

Yeah our prospect pool is pretty weak but what do you expect when we drafted in the bottom 5 5 years in a row.

Sutter's been alright.

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12-16-2008, 11:33 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bam09 View Post
Well let's review

Chucko - Not played an NHL game, not worth a first round pick
could have had(in same round): Schremp, Cory Schneider, Mike Green, Jeff Schultz or Mark Fistric

Prust- Played about 12 games I'd say, you can get an enforcer anywhere, not worth a high third
could have had: Franzen, Edler, Sekera, Pogge

Boyd- Great pick, props to Sutter

Seitsonen- Not played an NHL game for the Flames- has he ever played an NHL game? Awful pick
could have had: Torre Mitchell or Ryan Callahan(NHLers)

Hogg- Not played an NHL game- awful pick
could have had: same as above

Pardy- Solid pick, good value
could have had: Kari Ramo(its close)

Wikner- Bust
could have had: Brouwer or Campoli

Schenider- Bust
could have had: Jannik Hanssen

Spratt- Bust


Cracknell- In AHL

Wow. Are you serious? You just can't be.

Sorry to tell you bud not every pick is going to make the NHL. Calling guys like Wikner, Schneider, Spratt(stilll in college btw and still developing) busts is pretty laughable.

Fact is the flames currently have 3 players (Boyd, Prust and Pardy) on the team making an impact. A 4th in Chucko is not far away. Look at any draft for any team and having 3 players in one draft year is pretty damn good.

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12-16-2008, 11:37 PM
  #32
Leperus Leprechuan
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Why would calling Wikner and Scneider busts be laughable?, They are.

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12-16-2008, 11:45 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bam09 View Post
That's the problem right there. Kris Chucko does not project to have a high upside and has yet to play an NHL game. So making fun of Schremp is truely stupid on your part, as he's played in the NHL and is talented enough to play in a top 6.
.
Why isn't playing in the top 6 for the oilers then? This Schremp kid is soo good, but yet he just got sent back down.


Quote:
If you like the Prust pick I don't know what to say. You can pick up enforcers anywhere, but no we had to waste a third on him.
Prust has been more then an enforcer for the flames this season. He's been an energy guy who will stick up for his teammates and take on anyone. He's one of the reasons our bottom 6 has been so improved this season. Fail to see how he was a wasted pick.

Quote:
I don't know about you, but if I had the choice of a guy playing in the NHL and not playing in the NHL, I'd rather the NHLer. But obviously you prefer guys that are 3rd and 4th line checkers or players that don't make the NHL. It's stupid enough to insult me or those players, when this great GM took a guy that DIDN'T even make the NHL.
So you want NHL players, but have no problem calling a guy like Prust a waste just because he isn't a star player? Drafting isn't just about getting the star players.

Quote:
That's your problem right there. OMG we messed up on a 9th round pick! Well guess what when there is NHLers to be had, I don't care where you find them this late. Fact is Sutter can't.
Yeah because Sutter is the only GM in the league not getting players in the ninth round. Success rate of finding any type of player in the later rounds is extremely small to begin with. It's not like every other team in the league are finding these gems and the flames are the only team missing out.

What about non drafted players? Giordano, Regehr Jr, Palin, Wilson. Sutter get any credit for that?

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12-17-2008, 09:51 AM
  #34
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Sigh, bam I take it you didn't read it then. As you really never answered my questions. This wasn't a debate about 2004 (sorry for I guess that was my fault).

This has been pointed out, HF is neither entirely accurate nor up-to-dated our Prospects. When it is all said and done though I think it is very hard to come up with an unbiased scouting network.


Last edited by Hyde: 12-17-2008 at 10:08 AM.
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Old
12-17-2008, 10:38 AM
  #35
Ronald Pagan
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Originally Posted by bam09 View Post
That's the problem right there. Kris Chucko does not project to have a high upside and has yet to play an NHL game. So making fun of Schremp is truely stupid on your part, as he's played in the NHL and is talented enough to play in a top 6.

If you like the Prust pick I don't know what to say. You can pick up enforcers anywhere, but no we had to waste a third on him. I don't care how many times he was passed on, fact is your covering up Sutter and other GMs because they weren't smart enough to draft Franzen. But I mean who wants a goal scorer there when you can have the all important 4th line enforcer that logs 5-10minutes a game if he's lucky.

I don't know about you, but if I had the choice of a guy playing in the NHL and not playing in the NHL, I'd rather the NHLer. But obviously you prefer guys that are 3rd and 4th line checkers or players that don't make the NHL. It's stupid enough to insult me or those players, when this great GM took a guy that DIDN'T even make the NHL.

That's your problem right there. OMG we messed up on a 9th round pick! Well guess what when there is NHLers to be had, I don't care where you find them this late. Fact is Sutter can't.

Your so full of it bud. There is a damn good reason we are 28th in prospect ratings, but you guys have your head so far up Sutter's ass you don't know why.
Thank you for demonstrating to all of us that you have absolutely no clue about NHL drafting or prospects.

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12-17-2008, 10:44 AM
  #36
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I'm not worried at the end of the day we've got an excellent chance of graduating

one or two up front of:
Ryder
Backlund
Wahl
Nemizs
+ others

two or so of:
Negrin
Pelech
Wilson
Brodie
Aulie
+ others

and hopefully one of Keetley and Irving can become and NHL netminder in some regard...

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12-17-2008, 11:25 AM
  #37
bam09
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Pagan View Post
Thank you for demonstrating to all of us that you have absolutely no clue about NHL drafting or prospects.
You actually think we have a good drafting GM in Sutter. You are clueless, there is a very good reason we are ranked so low, and it's apparent why.

Getting tons of energy guys and enforcers, does not make someone a good drafter. I can find enforcers on the street and energy guys are a dime a dozen.

You can live with mediocrity, just because Sutter is so much better at drafting than Button or you can open your eyes to what we have down there. And the future is very bleak to say the least when it comes to our prospects. One good-great prospect(Backlund) a top 6 guy in Boyd and then a bunch of projects or 3rd and 4th line guys.

Schremp is very talented. He shouldn't have been sent down, but hey at least he got called up in the first place unlike this "developing" Chucko.

I guarantee you that if we had a good drafter before Sutter came in(for arguments sake) that you would call Sutter an awful drafter. But you guys want to compare him to the last guy in terms of who we have instead of who we could have had with a comptent drafter.

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12-17-2008, 11:29 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Hyde View Post
Sigh, bam I take it you didn't read it then. As you really never answered my questions. This wasn't a debate about 2004 (sorry for I guess that was my fault).

This has been pointed out, HF is neither entirely accurate nor up-to-dated our Prospects. When it is all said and done though I think it is very hard to come up with an unbiased scouting network.
No they are not completely up to date, sorry for not answering that. But I do think that our ranking is justified. Every team likes the prospects or rates them higher than they should be. And most of you guys think we have so much gold in the pot, that it's a surprise we are rated so low.

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12-17-2008, 11:52 AM
  #39
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Bam09 has a point. Sutter isn't a great drafter. He drafts too many tough guys and not enough skill guys. As someone who runs the draft, he leaves something to be desired. He makes up for it in trades, FA signings, and all sorts of other ways. Whether we need better scouts, or someone else to make our picks who knows. All I know is that the flames were awful for years, and now are back to respectability because of sutter. He's taken us from crap to respectable. Do we need a new GM to take us from respectable to elite? I dunno, how many teams can really make that jump? The next person we hire could be the next Don Waddell, or Button.

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12-17-2008, 12:33 PM
  #40
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Please itemize the factual errors in the write-up and I will get to the bottom of the errors.

Regarding Puustinen, generally, we have placed a freeze on removing from the site prospects drafted out of Europe with the uncertainty of the transfer agreement. I have spoken with several people in two different organizations and have received a different answer from each person. No one knows if/how the rights will be retained. Therefore, as a site, we have chosen to freeze removal of European prospects until we receive a definitive answer one way or the other.

Specifically for Puustinen, I understand that he returned to Finland to fulfill non-hockey obligations. I have placed an e-mail to the Flames organizational contact to try to get an answer as to his reserve status with the Flames. I will let you know if/when I hear from them.

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12-17-2008, 12:35 PM
  #41
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bam09 and serratedmuffin as I said on the Prospects Board, and I think the last one from Jiri really is the crux of the matter:

I don't care where the Flames are ranked , it's the complete lack of knowledge about their system that I find annoying. HF could rank the Flames 30th for all I care that sad fact is if I want to learn about the Flames prospects HF is the last place I go to.

JiriHrdina
Quote:
That's not what it's about entirely at least from the Flames point of view. Every time they release a list like this, whether the organizational rankings or the Flames prospect list it becomes crystal clear no one within the HF ranks has any clue about the Flames prospects.

As noted - Puustinen is no longer even in the organization yet is ranked #5. Dan Ryder #6 despite not playing hockey all last season? How about some love for the improving Matt Pelech and Kris Chucko, or Mitch Wahl, or Keith Aulie, or TJ Brodie, and on and on.

And then there's this: "A lack of attention to the farm system this decade has left Calgary in a bind."

Brutal.

Sutter has statead from day 1 that his priorities were to both improve the NHL team and rebuild the organization from the bottom up. The system is miles ahead of where it was even a year ago.

HF has a reputation amongst some fans that there are some pretty deeply entrenched biases built in towards specific teams and this list does nothing to demonstrate that isn't the case.

Call it whining if you want - but honestly from a Flames fan point of view this site offers very little in terms of substance, analysis or objective opinion.

Sorry HF but you have set the bar to be the best online resource of prospect info - and you aren't meeting the grade.


Last edited by Hyde: 12-17-2008 at 12:47 PM.
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12-17-2008, 12:37 PM
  #42
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These rankings are a joke created by a bunch of amateurs.............
and bam09 must be about 14 years old.

We have alot of quality prospects with good potential
Nemisz, Wahl, Backlund, Negrin, Aulie, Brody, Pelech, Armstrong, Pardy etc........

The idea of drafting is to find guys to play certain roles on the NHL team, not just aim for high skill long shots ie Schremp

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12-17-2008, 12:57 PM
  #43
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The rankings are based on how organizations fare against one another. They're not an indication of whether some players will turn out or not.

The majority of us agree that the team has only one bluechip prospect in the system and that's Backlund. A lot of the team's other prospects will likely be role / complementary players but not necessarily elite or franchise-type players. There's some depth in the system but I wouldn't consider many of them to be considered top prospects or surefire NHLers.

Then when you look at other teams, the Flames don't have the depth of prospects with high potential like Chicago, St. Louis, Phoenix, etc. So while the Flames may have Backlund, they don't have a Tikhonov, Turris, Boedker, Lisin, etc. all within the system.

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12-17-2008, 01:47 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David A. Rainer View Post
Please itemize the factual errors in the write-up and I will get to the bottom of the errors.

Regarding Puustinen, generally, we have placed a freeze on removing from the site prospects drafted out of Europe with the uncertainty of the transfer agreement. I have spoken with several people in two different organizations and have received a different answer from each person. No one knows if/how the rights will be retained. Therefore, as a site, we have chosen to freeze removal of European prospects until we receive a definitive answer one way or the other.

Specifically for Puustinen, I understand that he returned to Finland to fulfill non-hockey obligations. I have placed an e-mail to the Flames organizational contact to try to get an answer as to his reserve status with the Flames. I will let you know if/when I hear from them.
I'm sure someone can back me up on this (Hyde,StreakingRed, Jiri) Sutter himself has said we no longer have the rights to Puustinen. I'll have to search for the article when I get some time and see if I can find the quote.

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12-17-2008, 02:02 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by flamesfan12 View Post
I'm sure someone can back me up on this (Hyde,StreakingRed, Jiri) Sutter himself has said we no longer have the rights to Puustinen. I'll have to search for the article when I get some time and see if I can find the quote.
Here you go:

Quote:
The Flames have lost the rights to Finnish forward Juuso Puustinen. The Flames had suggested that the 2006 fifth-round pick was a defected player (because he was drafted out of Finland and has left North America to sign with a Finnish club) and that the club should retain his rights but the NHL has ruled otherwise. In any event, Sutter said the loss of the Finn, who spent the past two winters with the Kamloops juniors, "is not a big deal."
http://communities.canada.com/calgar...the-draft.aspx

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12-17-2008, 02:45 PM
  #46
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Hyde, I agree with you. They have shown they dont really understand the flames system very well. It's hard to get to know 30 systems without some between the cracks a bit. All I'm saying is that we do have plenty of prospects who could crack the NHL, but our drafting hasn't really produced a lot of top 6 forwards or top 4 D. I'm guessing what Sutter had in mind when he took over is to build up the farm through safe picks, and once the farm was established, then go more for the high-risk high reward type. I'm still quite happy where our system is heading from where it's been, but it would be foolish to say that Sutter is a great drafter. Again, getting someone else could mean Button or Waddell, but then again, a Gainey wouldn't hurt us

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12-17-2008, 03:22 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern Neighbour View Post
The rankings are based on how organizations fare against one another. They're not an indication of whether some players will turn out or not.

The majority of us agree that the team has only one bluechip prospect in the system and that's Backlund. A lot of the team's other prospects will likely be role / complementary players but not necessarily elite or franchise-type players. There's some depth in the system but I wouldn't consider many of them to be considered top prospects or surefire NHLers.

Then when you look at other teams, the Flames don't have the depth of prospects with high potential like Chicago, St. Louis, Phoenix, etc. So while the Flames may have Backlund, they don't have a Tikhonov, Turris, Boedker, Lisin, etc. all within the system.
no question they dont' stack up against the likes of the Blues/Yotes and others. But I would say there are a handful of teams they do compare with.

I don't want to make this an Oiler v. Flames debate but I look at that organization and I don't see how the Oil are 16 points higher in the rankings.

Calgary has an edge with goaltending prospects.
Bluelines - about even. Taylor Chorney gets a TON of love. If John Negrin was an Oiler prospect he would have just as much hype.
Forwards - maybe an edge to the Oilers but again if Mitch Wahl was a Flames prospect he'd be getting the Riley Nash treatment.

I would take Calgary's prospects over:
Ottawa
Carolina
Wild
Buffalo

and about even with Vancouver and Colorado

That would put the Flames at about the 22/23 spot which I think is where they should land .

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12-17-2008, 03:25 PM
  #48
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[QUOTE=serratedmuffin;16851432]Bam09 has a point. Sutter isn't a great drafter. He drafts too many tough guys and not enough skill guys. /QUOTE]

Simply not true. Sutter drafts a balance.

Just look at our blueline, you have a number of big nasty stay at home guys: Pelech/Baldwin/BIG Keith Aulie

Then you have the skilled puck movers: TJ Brodie, John Negrin, Per Jonsson.

Balance.

Up front he's drafted checker/guys with grit: Bouma, Grantham, Prust, etc
But he's drafted skill guys: Backlund, Nemisz, Wahl, Ryder, Boyd and longer shots like Aaron Marvin

This notion that Sutter doesn't like skill is such a farce and has now actual basis in fact.

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12-17-2008, 03:40 PM
  #49
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LOL at the thought of "wasting" a 3rd round pick on an NHL agitator.

Do you know how many players in the 3rd round even make the NHL???

OMG! not all the players we drafted made the NHL! Sutter Sucks! I can't believe we didn't draft a 50 goal scorer with every pick!

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12-17-2008, 04:00 PM
  #50
David A. Rainer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flamesfan12 View Post
I'm sure someone can back me up on this (Hyde,StreakingRed, Jiri) Sutter himself has said we no longer have the rights to Puustinen. I'll have to search for the article when I get some time and see if I can find the quote.
Directly from the media department of the Calgary Flames front office.

"Yes, we still retain his (Puustinen) rights."

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