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Old
12-19-2008, 12:50 PM
  #51
Ticonderoga
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Originally Posted by Lunatik View Post
if the Flames signed Sundin for $9 million I would be saying its a bad signing... this gives him what the 2nd highest cap hit in the NHL? it is a BAD contract given to a greedy player
That is a good point as well, but when your a team like Vancouver or Edmonton or even Calgary you have to over pay to land a big fish. The thing I would be mad over was why this deal was not good enough in July and whay it's a "perfect fit" now.

Oh well I look forward to the city calming down a bit I swear they were planning the parade route this morning on Granville.

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Old
12-19-2008, 12:53 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Sandlak View Post
Fragile? He has missed fewer than 3 games/season for his career.

I'm sorry, but you have posted a few things in this thread that are just plain wrong.
Well we will see how tough he is all year (oops half the season as he could not make his mind.... allegedly for a chance to win a championship now it is clearly about greed) vs the west and guys like Regehr.

Since you are the self proclaimed oracle of thread what is wrong with putting the numbers out there ? A little sensitive.

I say he is an old rental player nothing less. He showed no loyalty to Toronto so people will be (shocked oif course) surprised that he will show loyalty to Vancouver only if he is the second highest paid player... please!

I will take classy guys like Iggy and Regehr any day. The signing makes Vancouver better sure and this does not guarantee them a cup like some think.... as I stated (but it was probably wrong) wait until the 12th of April to see where all are positioned.

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Old
12-19-2008, 01:07 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by GoFlames View Post
Well we will see how tough he is all year (oops half the season as he could not make his mind.... allegedly for a chance to win a championship now it is clearly about greed) vs the west and guys like Regehr.

Since you are the self proclaimed oracle of thread what is wrong with putting the numbers out there ? A little sensitive.

I say he is an old rental player nothing less. He showed no loyalty to Toronto so people will be (shocked oif course) surprised that he will show loyalty to Vancouver only if he is the second highest paid player... please!

I will take classy guys like Iggy and Regehr any day. The signing makes Vancouver better sure and this does not guarantee them a cup like some think.... as I stated (but it was probably wrong) wait until the 12th of April to see where all are positioned.

Yeah and Todd Bertuzzi.

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Old
12-19-2008, 01:12 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Hyperkookeez View Post
at least flames now have some legit competition for 1st in the nw

The Canucks were competition for the Flames before they picked up Sundin.

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Old
12-19-2008, 01:24 PM
  #55
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I personally like the signing as it will ensure an excellent battle for the NW title. As well I hope the Flames and Nucks face off in the playoffs as we all know whoever wins that series is going to the SCF. Congrats Vancouver and we'll see you in the playoffs.

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Old
12-19-2008, 01:32 PM
  #56
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Even without Luongo, the Flames only managed to just tie the Canucks for the division lead. If Luongo hadn't been out of the lineup for the past month, the Flames are still probably a few points back at this point in the season. With Sundin playing in a couple weeks, and Luongo joining the team soon after, it likely pushes the Canucks over the top for the division.

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Old
12-19-2008, 01:40 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Lunatik View Post
if the Flames signed Sundin for $9 million I would be saying its a bad signing... this gives him what the 2nd highest cap hit in the NHL? it is a BAD contract given to a greedy player
This really isn't a substantive argument. The Canucks were already contending for the division without Sundin. They had the capspace and utilized it. They still have $3M in real capspace remaining, prorating to ~$12M at the deadline.

So, from a fiscal perspective, how is this a bad contract? Capspace is an asset, and the Canucks managed theirs well enough to afford overpaying for a big name UFA. If the Flames were in a similar position, are you saying you would do any different?

In this context, I don't see how anyone can claim this is a bad contract. If he signed the original 2 year $20M on the other hand...

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Old
12-19-2008, 01:42 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Rotang View Post
This really isn't a substantive argument. The Canucks were already contending for the division without Sundin. They had the capspace and utilized it. They still have $3M in real capspace remaining, prorating to ~$12M at the deadline.

So, from a fiscal perspective, how is this a bad contract? Capspace is an asset, and the Canucks managed theirs well enough to afford overpaying for a big name UFA. If the Flames were in a similar position, are you saying you would do any different?

In this context, I don't see how anyone can claim this is a bad contract. If he signed the original 2 year $20M on the other hand...
Holy Crap!!!! The fact that this question is even asked disturbs me...

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Old
12-19-2008, 01:55 PM
  #59
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I do not question Sundin as a great player. However I question his motivations:

Last year he reportedly wouldn't waive his no trade clause to go to Montreal. The Habs were this year's Bruins - big surprise, on top of the Eastern conference, legitimate Cup contender.

He said he didn't believe in being a rental player. Toronto reportedly would have received Chris Higgins, 1st, 2nd, 3rd round picks. He could have immmensely helped his beloved Leafs franchise by going to Montreal.

So then the season ends, Toronto out of the playoffs yet again.

And Sundin never resigned with the Leafs.

Then he waits until now to go to the Canucks.

So what I don't understand is he refuses to go to Montreal to have a chance at a Cup and then doesn't resign with the team he wouldn't leave?

Then he goes to Vancouver.

His motivations are mysterious.

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Old
12-19-2008, 02:04 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Body Checker View Post
I do not question Sundin as a great player. However I question his motivations:

Last year he reportedly wouldn't waive his no trade clause to go to Montreal. The Habs were this year's Bruins - big surprise, on top of the Eastern conference, legitimate Cup contender.

He said he didn't believe in being a rental player. Toronto reportedly would have received Chris Higgins, 1st, 2nd, 3rd round picks. He could have immmensely helped his beloved Leafs franchise by going to Montreal.

So then the season ends, Toronto out of the playoffs yet again.

And Sundin never resigned with the Leafs.

Then he waits until now to go to the Canucks.

So what I don't understand is he refuses to go to Montreal to have a chance at a Cup and then doesn't resign with the team he wouldn't leave?

Then he goes to Vancouver.

His motivations are mysterious.
I think it can be summed up in one word- GREED

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Old
12-19-2008, 02:19 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rotang View Post
This really isn't a substantive argument. The Canucks were already contending for the division without Sundin. They had the capspace and utilized it. They still have $3M in real capspace remaining, prorating to ~$12M at the deadline.

So, from a fiscal perspective, how is this a bad contract? Capspace is an asset, and the Canucks managed theirs well enough to afford overpaying for a big name UFA. If the Flames were in a similar position, are you saying you would do any different?

In this context, I don't see how anyone can claim this is a bad contract. If he signed the original 2 year $20M on the other hand...
Massive overpayment, but hey you got to do what you got to do.

I would bet Sutter would offer him just above market value not the second highest contact in the league.

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Old
12-19-2008, 02:24 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Classy Iggy View Post
I would bet Sutter would offer him just above market value not the second highest contact in the league.
Sutter structures his contracts so no one is paid more then Iginla (cap hit). So yeah, you're bang on.

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Old
12-19-2008, 02:27 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by AndersEriksson View Post
This is embarrassing. If Sundin had signed with the Flames all of the Flames fans saying Sundin is a bad signing would be singing his praise and praising Sutter for finally getting Iggy a legit #1 center.
I dont think anyone is really saying he is a bad signing, more like hes not going to make the Canucks into the most unstoppable super team that will win every game including the cup.

Hes a good signing and I think any team would be happy to add him but dont jinx yourselves Canucks fans until he has a few games under his belt with Vancouver.

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Old
12-19-2008, 02:35 PM
  #64
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I was hoping this wouldnt happen... But it will be interesting to see how Sundin does in the West. Im sure he will be fine, hes got a lot of pressure on him to do well and good players like him rise to the occasion.

But damn do I hate the Canucks even more now... another freaking Swede!!!!!

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Old
12-19-2008, 02:51 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by GoFlames View Post
I think it can be summed up in one word- GREED
Actually, I'd call it character.

The reason Sundin didn't waive his NTC is that, as he stated at the time, hockey is a team sport. While it happens sometimes, generally you can't just drop a player into a team in March and expect it to make a big difference in the playoffs. Sundin has been the captain of a team in a very intense hockey market for well over a decade. I think he understands how a locker room works.

This year, the biggest decision for Sundin was not WHERE he was going to play or for how much, but IF he was going to play. So to start off, he was not going to be with any team all season. Once he decided he was in the mental and physical condition to play, it came down to where he would be the best fit. If you listen at all to JP Barry, his agent, or Mike Gillis, the decision on Vancouver or NYR turned on the nature of the teams far more than money. If it was greed, he would not have even been entertaining the NYR offer. Was money a part of it? Of course. But there is no reason to think it was the deciding factor.

To go to the Rangers, they would have had to subtract at least 2, probably more roster players from their team to fit him in. JP Barry said this was a factor - Mats didn't want a couple of teammates to be waived or traded just to squeeze him in under the salary cap. This fits with Mats' idea of what a team is and is consistent with his decision last year not to waive his NTC. In Vancouver, yes they are going to have to make space on their 22 man roster, as would any team if they added a player. But they don't have to do major surgery to their line up. In NY, in addition to cuts for cap sake, they would likely be forced to go with a 20 man game day roster. Vancouver can still carry 7 defensemen and 13 forwards. NY already has 3 strong centres (Drury, Gomez and Dubinsky) forcing Prucha to the wing. Vancouver's current 2nd line doesn't really have a natural centre.

Style of play was also a factor - Vancouver is in the top 10 in goals for per game and plays an aggressive puck pursuit game in all 3 zones. Gillis said the questions Mats asked in all of the interviews were mostly about the style of play and the way the team was built. The Rangers are 3rd worst in goals for and are quite frankly boring to watch.

The character of the team is also a factor. Yes there are the Swedes - the Sedins, Ohlund and Edler and Wellwood, a former teammate and friend. But if you talk to the players they will tell you that this is one of the tightest locker rooms in the league.

You add these things up and, other than the NY City factor, Vancouver is the natural choice.

Personally I think this makes Vancouver a serious contender, but the Western Conference is tough and you can never count on injuries or other surprises. Again - personally, I think this now puts Vancouver ahead of Calgary and on a par with Detroit. But ... as Calgary has seen in the last 3 or 4 years, it is not the team on paper that counts but the team that hits the ice on game days. Calgary has had one of the best rosters in the league on paper for several years, but has been remarkably inconsistent, squeaking into the playoffs and then going nowhere. Each team still has its question marks. Can Calgary finally play up to its potential? Can Vancouver stay healthy?

That's why we have a regular season.

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Old
12-19-2008, 03:15 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Body Checker View Post
I do not question Sundin as a great player. However I question his motivations:

Last year he reportedly wouldn't waive his no trade clause to go to Montreal. The Habs were this year's Bruins - big surprise, on top of the Eastern conference, legitimate Cup contender.

He said he didn't believe in being a rental player. Toronto reportedly would have received Chris Higgins, 1st, 2nd, 3rd round picks. He could have immmensely helped his beloved Leafs franchise by going to Montreal.

So then the season ends, Toronto out of the playoffs yet again.

And Sundin never resigned with the Leafs.

Then he waits until now to go to the Canucks.

So what I don't understand is he refuses to go to Montreal to have a chance at a Cup and then doesn't resign with the team he wouldn't leave?

Then he goes to Vancouver.

His motivations are mysterious.
No offence but who cares about a players motives ??? Unless you are a leaf fan then I understand the questioning of this... but as a Flames fan it should not matter... and if you are a canuck fan you shouldn't either (you should be more conerned about how he fits in and plays).

Honestly, I don't get the fascination with the contract (a 1 yr deal that will NOT cash strap this team) and a players motivations (most players sign because of money.. or partially about money anyways).

Hopefully this makes games more interesting.. because more offence hopefully means less trapping (please god make it so).

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Old
12-19-2008, 04:55 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by GoFlames View Post
Well we will see how tough he is all year (oops half the season as he could not make his mind.... allegedly for a chance to win a championship now it is clearly about greed) vs the west and guys like Regehr.
He has 25 goals and 53 points in 43 games against you guys.

I don't think he's too worried about Robyn. In fact, it seems like Robyn might want to start worrying. Who should really worry, though, is your second pairing, which is going to have to match up against the Sedins now.

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Old
12-19-2008, 05:04 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Sandlak View Post
He has 25 goals and 53 points in 43 games against you guys.

I don't think he's too worried about Robyn. In fact, it seems like Robyn might want to start worrying. Who should really worry, though, is your second pairing, which is going to have to match up against the Sedins now.
We play each other twice so it's really not that big a deal for us.

Welcome to the land of having more then one offensive line. However I see that your membership expires at the end of the season.

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Old
12-19-2008, 05:08 PM
  #69
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Im just loving how Canuck fans now think they have a super power team that is indestructible. Well just see what happens....

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Old
12-19-2008, 05:11 PM
  #70
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Before you guys get all bent out of shape about how bad the contract is..

It's believed that Sundin signed a deal worth 8.6m/season. Pro-rated, I think it was about 5.6m. 4m of which is a signing bonus.

The Canucks have 3m in cap space at this time, which will be more than 10m come the deadline. More than enough to aquire any player (though the price would be steep and the assets may not be there).

At first look, it's an ugly contract, but it's a one year deal and doesn't handicap the team in the least.

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Old
12-19-2008, 05:49 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Classy Iggy View Post
We play each other twice so it's really not that big a deal for us.

Welcome to the land of having more then one offensive line. However I see that your membership expires at the end of the season.
Just replying to one of your comrade's posts.

And, I don't think you can properly welcome someone to a club to which you don't have a membership.

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Old
12-19-2008, 06:23 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Flames 4 Life View Post
The Flames 2nd line has and is heads and shoulders above the Canucks. So our membership is there while yours is shortly lived.
Won't the Nucks second line have the Twins on it? Now I love our second line, but come on.


Back on topic Sundin, it's a nice move for Vancouver without doubt. Again, I'll say it they've made themselves a serious threat to win the NW, but it's still going to be a dogfight contrary some people believe.

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Old
12-19-2008, 06:39 PM
  #73
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Just replying to one of your comrade's posts.

And, I don't think you can properly welcome someone to a club to which you don't have a membership.
the YWCA? (ok that was a bit was insensitive)

I know you can read so you must know better then to say that here, and if you didn't know we DO have 2 scoring lines.

On topic: the cap hit is what under 6 mil? so that leave them more room to pull off a trade as well.


Last edited by Ticonderoga: 12-19-2008 at 06:51 PM.
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Old
12-20-2008, 07:44 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Body Checker View Post
I do not question Sundin as a great player. However I question his motivations:

Last year he reportedly wouldn't waive his no trade clause to go to Montreal. The Habs were this year's Bruins - big surprise, on top of the Eastern conference, legitimate Cup contender.

He said he didn't believe in being a rental player. Toronto reportedly would have received Chris Higgins, 1st, 2nd, 3rd round picks. He could have immmensely helped his beloved Leafs franchise by going to Montreal.

So then the season ends, Toronto out of the playoffs yet again.

And Sundin never resigned with the Leafs.

Then he waits until now to go to the Canucks.

So what I don't understand is he refuses to go to Montreal to have a chance at a Cup and then doesn't resign with the team he wouldn't leave?

Then he goes to Vancouver.

His motivations are mysterious.
Do you think Detroit would have traded Steve yzerman?

Do you think Colorado would have traded Joe Sakic?

Do you think Calgary would have traded Jerome Iginla?

The toronto maple leafs gave up on him and the toronto media made him out to be a jerk after Sundin gave his heart and soul to the Maple leafs.

A 6'5 230 lb franchise player, right handed booming slapshot, born leader, they comes along once every 10-15 years and the leafs had the nerve to ask him to lift his no trade because their organization is a joke.

he gave everything to that franchise and they slapped him across the face.

They can whine and cry about not having Chris higgins, a late 1st rounder and some other pics and us canuck fans will enjoy every minute of him.

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Old
12-20-2008, 01:19 PM
  #75
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WOW...Comon now..

Just Face it. VANCOUVER HAD THE CAPSPACE to go the extra mile.

NOW THEY HAVE SUNDIN. MATS SUNDIN, biggest signing in francise history (believe me on this).

Mats Sundin is the best player that will suit up for the Canucks since....Pavel Bure.

What's with the jelousy????

People keep saying his classless.. greedy.... you guys don't know mats. How is he greedy? Gillis offered him the 10 million, he even gave vancouver a discount. The reason he didn't want to be a rental last year was because he was thinking of retirement.

Now his back with the canucks......And The Canucks have a legitimite 1st line centre. And guess what??? Flames still don't have one

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