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Flames drop to 28th in HF rankings

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Old
12-16-2008, 10:25 AM
  #1
serratedmuffin
 
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Flames drop to 28th in HF rankings

cool beans, we're ranked 28th in organizational rankings. Are our prospects really the 3rd worst in all of hockey?
Thoughts? Comments?

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12-16-2008, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by serratedmuffin View Post
cool beans, we're ranked 28th in organizational rankings. Are our prospects really the 3rd worst in all of hockey?
Thoughts? Comments?

Don't be so bent out of about it. Those are just rankings, someone can be a diamond.

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12-16-2008, 11:05 AM
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Northern Neighbour
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The team has one bluechip prospect (Backlund) and a bunch of role / complementary players. As such, it isn't surprising to see the team ranked so low. Of course, as Andy mentioned, someone could surprise and become a great talent (e.g., Aulie).

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12-16-2008, 11:11 AM
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Cyrus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serratedmuffin View Post
cool beans, we're ranked 28th in organizational rankings. Are our prospects really the 3rd worst in all of hockey?
Thoughts? Comments?
Well, we're all aware the general poorness of the Flames drafting record in the pre-Sutter era. But if you look at the 2003 - present drafting, there is little doubt in my mind that there is an improvement. After taking Phaneuf 9th overall in 2003, the Flames have drafted 24th, 26th, 26th, 24th, 25th. With this in mind, I'm not suprised that HF ranks our prospects so low.

I have been pleased with the way that Sutter has began building up the prospect pool while keeping the team in playoff contention. Really, the only way to start jumping up the list of HF rankings is to draft top 5 for a few years. I'll stick with getting excited for playoff hockey rather than draft day hockey.

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12-16-2008, 11:13 AM
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Eh, so what if the ranking is low. Detroit's proven that HF rankings don't mean you can't develop studs. You guys will be fine.

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Old
12-16-2008, 11:25 AM
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I do not put much stock in this ranking no one can predict how the player development will go, no one knows how a players skill can translate on an NHL surface.

I would say we have a great goalie and defence prospect pool. You never know how Backlund, Wahl, Nemisz et all will turn out.

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12-16-2008, 11:31 AM
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Ronald Pagan
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These ranking would have at least some credibility if there weren't OBVIOUS FACTUAL ERRORS in their assessment.

These are nothing more than fanboy delusions masquerading as some type of thoughtful expert analysis.

Sure, we might be 28th, at least get it straight. Jusso Puustinen? 5th ranked?

Obviously whoever has done this has ABSOLUTELY ZERO knowledge of the Flames' system.

I'm confident that in 5 years time we'll have graduated more prospects than the Oilers. Already right now we're even with them over recent history on the number of players graduated.

Flames:
Lombardi
Nystrom
Phaneuf
Moss
Pardy
Giordano
Boyd

Oilers:
Hemsky
Gagner
Cogliano
Pouliot
Brodziak
Stortini

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Old
12-16-2008, 11:34 AM
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serratedmuffin
 
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we've turned out some nhl players in pardy, Lombardi, Moss, Nystrom, Boyd, Prust, Giordano, Phaneuf. I guess I was just suprised that we were ranked 14th and now we've dropped 14 spots when not a whole lot really changed beside a decent draft in 08. Our ability to grab free agents or trades that produce results makes up for anything, and although we arn't detroit, we still ice competitive teams.

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12-16-2008, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serratedmuffin View Post
we've turned out some nhl players in pardy, Lombardi, Moss, Nystrom, Boyd, Prust, Giordano, Phaneuf. I guess I was just suprised that we were ranked 14th and now we've dropped 14 spots when not a whole lot really changed beside a decent draft in 08. Our ability to grab free agents or trades that produce results makes up for anything, and although we arn't detroit, we still ice competitive teams.
These ranking don't mean anything, these people are just like Eklund.

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Old
12-16-2008, 11:39 AM
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Moss was drafted in the seventh round, he is now 1 goal away from being second to Iggy in goals scored on the team.

Gagner, on the other hand, is given an infinite amount more hype as an Oiler and has only 1 goal and 5 assists this year.

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Old
12-16-2008, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Dions shoulder View Post
Moss was drafted in the seventh round, he is now 1 goal away from being second to Iggy in goals scored on the team.

Gagner, on the other hand, is given an infinite amount more hype as an Oiler and has only 1 goal and 5 assists this year.
you didn't really just compare gagner and david moss did you?

you might have a point if moss wasn't 10 years older then gagner. 10 years difference. 10.

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Old
12-16-2008, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by ken conif View Post
you didn't really just compare gagner and david moss did you?

you might have a point if moss wasn't 10 years older then gagner. 10 years difference. 10.
Is Gagner 16? I didn't realize..

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Old
12-16-2008, 01:35 PM
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Schitzo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Pagan View Post

I'm confident that in 5 years time we'll have graduated more prospects than the Oilers. Already right now we're even with them over recent history on the number of players graduated.

Flames:
Lombardi
Nystrom
Phaneuf
Moss
Pardy
Giordano
Boyd

Oilers:
Hemsky
Gagner
Cogliano
Pouliot
Brodziak
Stortini
2001:
Hemsky, Markannen v. Kobasew, Moss

2002:
Stoll, Greene v. Nystrom, Lombardi

2003:
Pouliot, Stortini, Brodziak v. Phaneuf

2004:
Schremp? v. Boyd, Pardy

2005:
Cogliano v. Nobody yet

2006:
Nobody for either team yet

2007:
Gagner v. nobody yet.


Flames take 2004 for sure, and no doubt Phaneuf alone is enough to take 2003. But oilers for sure take 2001, and have had more early success from 2005-> present.

It'll be interesting to see how it plays out.

Edit: This is strictly drafting. Giordano was a free agent signing, and I haven't counted non-oilers drafts like Nilsson, Gilbert or Grebs

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Old
12-16-2008, 01:43 PM
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Ronald Pagan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schitzo View Post
2001:
Hemsky, Markannen v. Kobasew, Moss

2002:
Stoll, Greene v. Nystrom, Lombardi

2003:
Pouliot, Stortini, Brodziak v. Phaneuf

2004:
Schremp? v. Boyd, Pardy

2005:
Cogliano v. Nobody yet

2006:
Nobody for either team yet

2007:
Gagner v. nobody yet.


Flames take 2004 for sure, and no doubt Phaneuf alone is enough to take 2003. But oilers for sure take 2001, and have had more early success from 2005-> present.

It'll be interesting to see how it plays out.

Edit: This is strictly drafting. Giordano was a free agent signing, and I haven't counted non-oilers drafts like Nilsson, Gilbert or Grebs

I'm saying number of players. Quality of players rests solely on where you pick. Too subjective to evaluate. The best way to evaluate drafts is the number of players or games you get out of each draft.

You may have won 2001 but we didn't even have the opportunity to pick Hemsky and we likely picked the next best player out of that draft from our position on in the first round.

And Giordano counts. We scouted him 29 teams in the league passed him over, we didn't need to use a draft pick to get him. You could have had him.

Yeah, and don't count non-Oiler drafted prospects because you didn't draft them.

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12-16-2008, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Ronald Pagan View Post
I'm saying number of players. Quality of players rests solely on where you pick. Too subjective to evaluate. The best way to evaluate drafts is the number of players or games you get out of each draft.
Heh, I thought I was being even-minded. If you strictly count players who graduate, the oilers have more on that list, even counting Giordano.

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Old
12-16-2008, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Pagan View Post
I'm saying number of players. Quality of players rests solely on where you pick. Too subjective to evaluate. The best way to evaluate drafts is the number of players or games you get out of each draft.

You may have won 2001 but we didn't even have the opportunity to pick Hemsky and we likely picked the next best player out of that draft from our position on in the first round.

And Giordano counts. We scouted him 29 teams in the league passed him over, we didn't need to use a draft pick to get him. You could have had him.

Yeah, and don't count non-Oiler drafted prospects because you didn't draft them.
who cares who dafted them? a prospect is a prospect regardless... HF rankings are not about our drafting they are about our prospects... I hate how this has turned into another flames v. oilers pissing match....

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12-16-2008, 02:08 PM
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Ronald Pagan
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Drafting matters because everyone has equal chances to build a prospect base under that constraint.

We could have traded off Iginla and Kiprusoff for prospects and built our prospect base at the cost of our on-ice talent.

By focusing solely on drafting and assuming that the number of picks remains relatively constant we can properly evaluate how each team fares at drafting and developing prospects.

What's wrong with that?

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Old
12-16-2008, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Ronald Pagan View Post
Drafting matters because everyone has equal chances to build a prospect base under that constraint.

We could have traded off Iginla and Kiprusoff for prospects and built our prospect base at the cost of our on-ice talent.

By focusing solely on drafting and assuming that the number of picks remains relatively constant we can properly evaluate how each team fares at drafting and developing prospects.

What's wrong with that?
because this thread is about prospect rankings... and prospects include players acquired... its not hard to understand

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Old
12-16-2008, 03:26 PM
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These lists continue to be a joke. Puustinen no longer flames property is somehow ranked 5th best? Wow. Seriously. Hell even if he was flames property still he sure the hell wouldn't be 5th. The lack of knowledge of the flames is simply mindboggling.

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12-16-2008, 04:08 PM
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calgary is the least popular canadian club sadly, and since USA has more people, most of their teams are more popular. And in the fact we sucked for a decade and now these guys glaze over stats of who we drafted and handed out random grades. HF's opinion on our guys is probably at the same quality as a Tampa bay fan ranking our prospects.

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12-16-2008, 04:55 PM
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Well, these aren't the greatest rankings, maybe some of you need to take the red shades off. We aren't that great at drafting or stock piling prospects like some of you have suggested. I feel we are in the bottom 5 of prospects in a system in the whole league BUT because you guys hated Button so much and how we were awful, Sutter seems a lot better even though he isn't a good drafter. Phaneuf was a gimmie at 9. It was like taking Crosby at 1- a no brainer.

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12-16-2008, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by bam09 View Post
Phaneuf was a gimmie at 9. It was like taking Crosby at 1- a no brainer.
Sutter, should get credit for Dion, it wasn't a gimmie or he would have been taken before the Flames got him. How about 2004, according to the last HF article that draft was a bust, yet I really don't think so. Do you bam?

Really bam did you even look before this, the last update on Flames page was to scratch Mickey Renaud's name off.

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12-16-2008, 06:02 PM
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To say "maybe these aren't the greatest rankings," is an understatement. I'd like to agree to not be too upset by this as obviously whoever writes or 'researchs' any of this information has not spent any time looking at our prospects. I just wish they would use, or have the option, to say, "no comment" about us as they have no clue.

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12-16-2008, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Hyde View Post
Sutter, should get credit for Dion, it wasn't a gimmie or he would have been taken before the Flames got him. How about 2004, according to the last HF article that draft was a bust, yet I really don't think so. Do you bam?

Really bam did you even look before this, the last update on Flames page was to scratch Mickey Renaud's name off.

Well let's review

Chucko - Not played an NHL game, not worth a first round pick
could have had(in same round): Schremp, Cory Schneider, Mike Green, Jeff Schultz or Mark Fistric

Prust- Played about 12 games I'd say, you can get an enforcer anywhere, not worth a high third
could have had: Franzen, Edler, Sekera, Pogge

Boyd- Great pick, props to Sutter

Seitsonen- Not played an NHL game for the Flames- has he ever played an NHL game? Awful pick
could have had: Torre Mitchell or Ryan Callahan(NHLers)

Hogg- Not played an NHL game- awful pick
could have had: same as above

Pardy- Solid pick, good value
could have had: Kari Ramo(its close)

Wikner- Bust
could have had: Brouwer or Campoli

Schenider- Bust
could have had: Jannik Hanssen

Spratt- Bust


Cracknell- In AHL

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Old
12-16-2008, 06:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyde View Post
Sutter, should get credit for Dion, it wasn't a gimmie or he would have been taken before the Flames got him. How about 2004, according to the last HF article that draft was a bust, yet I really don't think so. Do you bam?

Really bam did you even look before this, the last update on Flames page was to scratch Mickey Renaud's name off.
It's a gimmy in the sense that, if he was there Sutter was going to take him. Much like how Phoenix was going to take whoever fell to them at 3, even though Turris was the guy they wanted most.

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