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Sather's Cap Woes Simply Indefensible

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Old
12-20-2008, 03:05 PM
  #51
NYR Sting
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Originally Posted by Levitate View Post
Don't pat yourself on the back too hard.

Also, tons of people were clamoring for a free agent defenseman this summer. Not everyone, but most people were stuck on repeat, saying "the Rangers need a good defenseman that will help X!" Now most of those people are complaining.

Two years ago the Rangers desperately needed centers, so they got two that were available. If they don't get those two, they're an even worse team.

There's pretty much a balance here that I don't think people are wiling to acknowledge. If the Rangers don't spend on some of these free agents, they become an even worse team. Not top 10 draft pick worse, just outside of the playoffs worse.
That's your opinion Lev, and you're definitely a good poster, but I have to disagree. If we don't sign Gomez, Drury, Redden, if we let Rozsival walk, we would have been a team full of young players. We would have been bad for a year or two, bad enough to draft the kind of players necessary to finish re-building.

The entire point is that when a franchise is terrible for many years, they're supposed to come away with something to show for it. Look at the Penguins, Capitals, Blackhawks, Bruins, Kings...they each have several franchise players that they drafted. We have Lundqvist...and a bunch of good, solid young players. I like them all, a lot, but they aren't franchise players (Lundqvist excluded, of course).

The franchises that rebuild the right way are the franchises that are going to be surpassing the Rangers over the next few years. The Rangers just couldn't resist throwing their money around as usual, and now we're stuck with a team that isn't going to win anything (and I'm sorry but if anyone thinks this team is a contender for a Stanley Cup, I would have to question that person's understanding of the sport), and doesn't have many options in terms of improving anytime soon.

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Old
12-20-2008, 03:15 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Radek27 View Post
The standings mean nothing to the purpose of the article. The facts are we have huge contracts on this team that are going to be very very hard to trade away, a cap that is going down, and our own RFA's to resign in the summer along with no cap space to add to this first place group that you love so much.

I would be interested to hear your opinion if in the summer if the Rangers have another 2nd round exit and are still in cap hell unless you think the team as it is right now can win the cup.
Yes you're right the standings mean nothing to the purpose of the article, but it shows that people are right now making a mountain out of a molehill, with this total underachieving roster 35 games into the season, they are still in first place. What happens if Redden becomes the Rangers best player in the next 35 games? Will I see Sather is a genius article posted by Brooks? What if the team as a whole finds it's scoring touch? People are basing Redden on 35 games of a 6 year deal, and the only thing people like Brooks can say is what about "the next important player to hit the market." Yeah like Campbell? Sundin? Hossa? Orpik? Yeah they all wanted to come to NY alright, Sather didn't try hard enough.


Let's wait till the playoffs and see what happens and see how the team has changed then we can talk about cap fixes and solutions.

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Old
12-20-2008, 03:28 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by abev View Post
... Oh that's right. The more money you make the better you have to be. Making more money elevates your game. I get it now.
I'm sorry, but this just made me shake my head. Just what kind of criterias do you think professionals are paid for, in any business, at any profession? I'll give you a hint: expected skill, responsibility and performance (and yeah, the "intangibles" that are somehow worth aaalooot of money on some teams *cough*). There's also availability, which sadly seems to be the absolute majority of the payment to NYR:s UFAs. It's obvious you can't buy UFA:s for key roles.

So far, Redden hasn't delivered (or any other high paid player, but Lundqvist). Redden is also obviously going to be critizised more when he makes $6.5 million a year, than if he earned, say $2.5 million.


Last edited by Chimp: 12-20-2008 at 03:49 PM.
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Old
12-20-2008, 04:40 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
If we don't sign Gomez, Drury, Redden, if we let Rozsival walk, we would have been a team full of young players. We would have been bad for a year or two, bad enough to draft the kind of players necessary to finish re-building..
I can't really identify which young players would have been playing last year, but didn't because of Drury and Gomez, nor can I see who Redden and Rozsival are currently displacing from Hartford. This theory assumes that the Rangers have that many NHL capable prospects, but we all know they don't, hence the need to use the UFA market.

I also think it would also be tough to tell Jagr you're tanking the season after what he had done for the team over the previous 2 seasons, and appeared to be at least a longshot for a Cup with some upgrades. Gomez and Drury will always be a fair argument, but Sather was not in a position to pull the plug on that team completely when they were signed.

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Originally Posted by Chimp View Post
It's obvious you can't buy UFA:s for key roles..
It's also not realistic that you're going to be able to draft every key player you need either. When the key players you've drafted to build the team around are being traded away frivelously, failing to meet expectations, or even dying, I don't see much other choice but to dip into the free agent market to populate the roster. Again, you can argue about the choice's that were made, but UFA is just the Ranger's reality.

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Old
12-20-2008, 04:42 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by -31- View Post
save me this watching the games nonsense. +/- clearly indicates that they are bad defensive players, so they are. obviously not as bad as renowned defensive liabilities as Rod Brind'Amour (-22), Chris Phillips (-13) or Kris Draper (-10), but obviously they're bad.

+/- is a stat to be used along with logic. when used without, the results are ugly, as Inferno just illustrated.
+/- can be a misleading stat, clearly, and your sarcasm not withstanding while watching the games I definitely thing Gomez is a major liability defensively because of his penchant for turnovers, especially turnovers that trap the entire forward group behind the play. Chris Drury is a defensively responsible player for the most part, but he has been very guilty of watching plays rather than engaging in them. He also is a minus player because his line generates next to nothing in offense (the last 2 games not withstanding) which means he is almost always playing the game in the neutral zone or his own end. Being completely unable to even keep the puck in the offensive zone is also considered being a defensive liability. If the puck is always played in your end of the ice, you have problems.

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Old
12-20-2008, 04:45 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Chimp View Post
Redden is also obviously going to be critizised more when he makes $6.5 million a year, than if he earned, say $2.5 million.
But why? Yes you can talk about expectations but Redden seems on track for a season similar and it's not his fault if people are expecting the unreasonable. It's also not his fault that someone offered him more money than he's worth.

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Old
12-20-2008, 05:13 PM
  #57
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Funny how about 2 weeks ago I posted a thread comparing Dan Duquette to Sather and that basically Sather needs to go...

Now this...

I'm so smart

heh found it: http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=581967

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Old
12-20-2008, 05:23 PM
  #58
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On paper The D is pretty solid

Redden and Rozsival have been real good top Dmen over the past few yrs.............Staal and Girardi are young , Mara has improved , Kalinin is actually a pretty deep 6th

Upfront they banked on Dawes and he has not produced................yea Gomez and Drury are paid alot but they are 2 of the best 2 way players

the team needs a true sniper......Zherdev is great but he is young and needs support

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Old
12-20-2008, 05:28 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vitto79 View Post
On paper The D is pretty solid

Redden and Rozsival have been real good top Dmen over the past few yrs.............Staal and Girardi are young , Mara has improved , Kalinin is actually a pretty deep 6th

Upfront they banked on Dawes and he has not produced................yea Gomez and Drury are paid alot but they are 2 of the best 2 way players

the team needs a true sniper......Zherdev is great but he is young and needs support
I like our D except it's kinda soft and very thin. If Renney had anohter capable NHL defender Kalinin would be our 7th guy I have no doubt. Could we really be looking to get another D instead of a winger?

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Old
12-20-2008, 05:54 PM
  #60
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At least Renney realizes & admits we have prolbems, Kanlin has to go, there is no reason Potter can't be in there, sadly Redden & Rosival aren't going anywhere for the time being & we have to hope they play there way though there issues.

We have to move some guys around & get another top 6 winger, & maybe try Dubi on the wing with Dury & Naslund.

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Old
12-20-2008, 07:09 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
That's your opinion Lev, and you're definitely a good poster, but I have to disagree. If we don't sign Gomez, Drury, Redden, if we let Rozsival walk, we would have been a team full of young players. We would have been bad for a year or two, bad enough to draft the kind of players necessary to finish re-building.

The entire point is that when a franchise is terrible for many years, they're supposed to come away with something to show for it. Look at the Penguins, Capitals, Blackhawks, Bruins, Kings...they each have several franchise players that they drafted. We have Lundqvist...and a bunch of good, solid young players. I like them all, a lot, but they aren't franchise players (Lundqvist excluded, of course).

The franchises that rebuild the right way are the franchises that are going to be surpassing the Rangers over the next few years. The Rangers just couldn't resist throwing their money around as usual, and now we're stuck with a team that isn't going to win anything (and I'm sorry but if anyone thinks this team is a contender for a Stanley Cup, I would have to question that person's understanding of the sport), and doesn't have many options in terms of improving anytime soon.
But, as we all know, hockey is different here. Sather and Company aren't interested in rebuilding (again), they are interested in winning a championship. The chances of him changing course at this point is extremely small. We can talk all we want about not signing high cost free agents, but there isn't enough young talent in the system ready to play in the NHL and neither Sather nor Dolan will tolerate the losing that would happen without signing players like Gomez, Redden, Drury et al. Sather is under the delusion that he has put together a team that is capable of going deep into the playoffs and that he (finally) has the coach lead them there. Dolan just wants to be able to continue to raise ticket prices and will go along with anything Sather tells him will get to that goal.

We're stuck, it's Groundhog day all over again.

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Old
12-20-2008, 07:51 PM
  #62
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That's a great point, Brooklyn...

I do believe this team is a playoff team. However, this team is not an elite team, despite its record, in my opinion. To make matters worse, I don't know how this team gets better in the next few seasons. They don't have any real high-end talent coming through the system. The current roster has vets saddling it high up against the cap and those vets are B players themselves. They really don't have depth, and they don't have much flexibility. So how do they get to the next level? What's the plan? I'm just not seeing it. You'd think they'd take a couple prospects and try to get a young top 6 winger, but can they even afford that guy? I dunno. Perhaps it wold've been better for Sather to have taken a step back - not sign a guy like Redden, in particular. Heck, would signing Jagr to $7.5MM for two seasons have been a decent stop-gap solution for the Rangers to bridge them another couple years if Sather's goal is to continue to make the playoffs instead of a Redden for seasons (I say $7.5MM knowing Redden costs $6.5MM because that scenario would've preventd the signing of Rissmiller). I just don't know.

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Old
12-20-2008, 08:13 PM
  #63
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Question: Can the Rangers simply waive Kalinin, Redden, and Roszival? That would clear their space immediately. Maybe even let them make room for a trade for a defender?

Or is there a reason who Kalinin, Redden, and Roszival are stuck there?

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Old
12-20-2008, 08:18 PM
  #64
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they can. And Redden can play n HFD for 5 seasons and Rozsival for 4. Kalinin's not a bad signing because he's for one season; as is Mara (although with the way he's been playing and at the price he's being paid, he's the kind of guy you want around for a couple seasons).

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12-20-2008, 08:27 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
they can. And Redden can play n HFD for 5 seasons and Rozsival for 4. Kalinin's not a bad signing because he's for one season; as is Mara (although with the way he's been playing and at the price he's being paid, he's the kind of guy you want around for a couple seasons).
So then why doesn't Sather just do that?

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Old
12-20-2008, 08:30 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by DevFan-RU- View Post
So then why doesn't Sather just do that?
I don't know if he's either convinced that Redden will turn it around or he's trying to trade him.

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Old
12-20-2008, 08:32 PM
  #67
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That's dangerous to waive long term contracts like that to the minors...you just know the PA will file some sort of grievance, pressure the NHL to change the rules, or set a great precent of going to the Rangers as a FA. It will either drive people away from NY or (perhaps even worse for them) get a NMC for every FA that signs there.

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Old
12-20-2008, 08:38 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by HellOnIce View Post
That's dangerous to waive long term contracts like that to the minors...you just know the PA will file some sort of grievance, pressure the NHL to change the rules, or set a great precent of going to the Rangers as a FA. It will either drive people away from NY or (perhaps even worse for them) get a NMC for every FA that signs there.
plus it's bush-league to send NHL players (and as bad as they can be, they are) to the AHL to get around a bad signing you made.

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12-20-2008, 08:56 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by DevFan-RU- View Post
So then why doesn't Sather just do that?
Sends a bad message to other players in the league. A big time UFA might not want to sign here in fears that he would be waived if he doesn't perform well. I don't think waiving Redden would be out of the realm of possibility, but not until the 3rd or 4th year of his contract.

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Old
12-20-2008, 08:59 PM
  #70
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trx..

I agree with the concept - but I'm not sure what reality is. Behind close doors does Sather say, f- it, if he doesn't work out he plays in HFD for 5-6 years. We can afford to keep him there and this is our one loophole around the salary cap. I honestly don't know. I approach discussions regarding the salary cap as if that's not the option, which is why I say this team is f'd cap-wise - but I don't know what is reality.

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Old
12-20-2008, 09:00 PM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Best article Brooks has written in years, and I don't hate the guy like some people. Redden has the NHL's worst contract, no contest. It's simply appalling.
I personally think the Briere contract is the worst in the NHL, but Redden's is up there.

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Old
12-20-2008, 09:29 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by -31- View Post
plus it's bush-league to send NHL players (and as bad as they can be, they are) to the AHL to get around a bad signing you made.
Didn't stop him with MacLean or Kasper. Yes MacLean wasn't his signing but Kasper was.

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Old
12-20-2008, 10:05 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Radek27 View Post
Didn't stop him with MacLean or Kasper. Yes MacLean wasn't his signing but Kasper was.

Those players were at the end of there careers, Maclean was in the final year of his contract & Kasper had almost 2 seasons left on his deal, so it's possible.

Lamerillo bansihed Malakov & Molgilny to the minors & they never returned.

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Old
12-20-2008, 10:35 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by ThisYearsModel View Post
Selling papers or not....Brooks is right on the money today.
No he isn't. He gives the glass is half empty sermon to the fans, he's been doing it for years and years if you hadn't noticed. Rarely does he bring up positives cause as I said, those don't sell newspapers.

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Old
12-20-2008, 11:30 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Radek27 View Post
Didn't stop him with MacLean or Kasper. Yes MacLean wasn't his signing but Kasper was.
neither one was an NHL caliber player at that time.

Quote:
Lamerillo bansihed Malakov & Molgilny to the minors & they never returned.
Lou never sent Malakhov down.

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