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Old
12-20-2008, 11:00 PM
  #26
BigG44
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Originally Posted by Kritter471 View Post
And I don't hate young players either. I hate players making mistakes that hurt my favorite team. Brunnstrom has made tremendous strides the past 5-10 games in both creating his own offense and without the puck, and you haven't heard a complaint out of me about him. Stephan I don't really have an opinion of either way other than he makes some very nice saves and lets in some preventable goals.

Oh don't fee me that BS. You expect players to cross the pond or come out of college/juniors and play lights out. The first 2 months of the season we had to listen to consistent whining about every single Brunnstrom mistake.

Players have to be given some leeway to improve.

Brunnstrom just proved that if Tippett had let him play through some mistakes, like he was forced to do with Eriksson, he would respond. Dallas could have had an improved Brunnstrom a month and a half ago if he was coached instead of being terrified of every move on the ice.

Same goes for Stephan. You never will know what you have until you play the guy. Every guy isnít going to become an NHL player, but youíre not going to find out while heís on the bench, especially when theyíve already performed very well with limited chances.

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12-20-2008, 11:04 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by BigG44 View Post
Oh don't fee me that BS. You expect players to cross the pond or come out of college/juniors and play lights out. The first 2 months of the season we had to listen to consistent whining about every single Brunnstrom mistake.

Players have to be given some leeway to improve.

Brunnstrom just proved that if Tippett had let him play through some mistakes, like he was forced to do with Eriksson, he would respond. Dallas could have had an improved Brunnstrom a month and a half ago if he was coached instead of being terrified of every move on the ice.

Same goes for Stephan. You never will know what you have until you play the guy. Every guy isnít going to become an NHL player, but youíre not going to find out while heís on the bench, especially when theyíve already performed very well with limited chances.
Or Brunnstrom went through the natural learning process that comes with being in a new league and new country and would have improved off the puck now regardless of his playing time. There's no proof about anything in coaching style there except in the minds of those who already had their minds made up.

Trust me, I talked much less about Brunnstrom than did the people whining about the amount of playing time he got.

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12-20-2008, 11:07 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Kritter471 View Post
I see piqued claiming exactly that in the first post.
No he didn't.

He claimed that the goaltending was bad. That is true.

You claimed the goaltending is bad because of the defense. That is your opinion.

Piqued never claimed that the defense/offense or anything in between wasn't an issue either.

You're the only one forgiving Turco because of the team. Dallas has already thrown 9 or 10 different defenseman and countless forwards. The one thing they haven't tried is playing a different goalie some.

Just because people want to dump on Turco doesnít mean they believe the rest of the team is playing well. Anyone that didnít put blame on the other guys would be crazy, but throwing Turco out night after night obviously isnít going to help the Stars win either.

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12-20-2008, 11:17 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Kritter471 View Post
Or Brunnstrom went through the natural learning process that comes with being in a new league and new country and would have improved off the puck now regardless of his playing time. There's no proof about anything in coaching style there except in the minds of those who already had their minds made up.

Trust me, I talked much less about Brunnstrom than did the people whining about the amount of playing time he got.
Yeah youíre right. I'd much rather have Brunnstrom riding the bench. Barch, Wilson, Conner, and Parrish are all much better options.

The sad thing is, your Niskanen argument actually makes since. Niskanen's played, what 100 or more games. We all no what he brings to the table, and he isn't doing it on a consistent basis. He does deserve a night or 2 in the box to get his **** together.

You can't apply the same argument to a rookie. They can't learn if they don't make mistakes.

Dave Tippett has become the biggest freaking hypocrite. Parrish goes out on a nightly basis and sucks it up yet he gets rewarded with quality time with the Top 3 centers. Darryl Sydor has played worse than any defenseman on the team this year. Even Janik has played better yet heíll never see the bench.

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12-20-2008, 11:18 PM
  #30
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I'm not forgiving Turco. He has not played as well as he needs to.

But I do not believe he is the root of the problems, and I believe his numbers and some (not all) of his struggles are a symptom of a larger problem, and following that, I believe any goalie would have similar problems.

Is it opinion? Yeah, but so is the premise that playing Stephan will help this team (which again, I agree with playing Stephan more, I just disagree with that reasoning). The only facts are that the goaltending numbers and the quality of chances the Stars are giving up is absolutely atrocious.

As for your last part, they've only thrown out that many skaters because of injury. The only real merit demotion was Fistric. The rest were necessity, not choice, so it's not a fair comparison.

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12-20-2008, 11:21 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigG44 View Post
No he didn't.

He claimed that the goaltending was bad. That is true.
Did you actually read what Piqued wrote? It appears you did not. The part in question is the following:

Quote:
Needless to say, that is not NHL quality netminding. It's not even AHL quality.

The only guys saving Turco from the save percentage basement are Chris Osgood and Pascal Leclaire. And they've played 19 and 12 games respectively.

No other goalie has hurt their team more than Marty Turco.
But here's where it gets funny regarding your reply. You write the following:
Quote:
Piqued never claimed that the defense/offense or anything in between wasn't an issue either.
While technically true, that's because he never wrote anything about the defense. There isn't one word in the first post about the team's defense. So, again, while technically true, the reason why the first post is taken to be a direct shot at blaming Turco for the team's struggles completely is because that's all that is in the gripe. How else would one interpret the last quoted line?

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Old
12-20-2008, 11:23 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigG44 View Post
Yeah youíre right. I'd much rather have Brunnstrom riding the bench. Barch, Wilson, Conner, and Parrish are all much better options.

The sad thing is, your Niskanen argument actually makes since. Niskanen's played, what 100 or more games. We all no what he brings to the table, and he isn't doing it on a consistent basis. He does deserve a night or 2 in the box to get his **** together.

You can't apply the same argument to a rookie. They can't learn if they don't make mistakes.

Dave Tippett has become the biggest freaking hypocrite. Parrish goes out on a nightly basis and sucks it up yet he gets rewarded with quality time with the Top 3 centers. Darryl Sydor has played worse than any defenseman on the team this year. Even Janik has played better yet heíll never see the bench.
You have your mind so made up on me you're not even listening.

The only reason I ever advocated Brunnstrom going to the minors (as I did at the beginning of the year) was cap purposes. I never advocated he be scratched. I just said he didn't deserve 20 minutes a game just because he had a great debut. I don't think Barch, Wilson, Conner or Parrish deserve more time. I frankly can't quite figure out what they're doing with Parrish, honestly. But I'd rather see Brunnstrom improve to earn his ice time, which he has been doing, than giving it to him immediately and having him prove otherwise.

I honestly wonder, especially with Sydor, if that's not coming from above. Hull has shown he doesn't have an objective perspective on former teammates (see Avery, Sean), and I wonder if he honestly believe Sydor is helping somehow. Cause in a true meritocrity, he and Niskanen would be rotating scratches when Grossman is healthy.

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Old
12-20-2008, 11:23 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Kritter471 View Post
I'm not forgiving Turco. He has not played as well as he needs to.

But I do not believe he is the root of the problems, and I believe his numbers and some (not all) of his struggles are a symptom of a larger problem, and following that, I believe any goalie would have similar problems.

Is it opinion? Yeah, but so is the premise that playing Stephan will help this team (which again, I agree with playing Stephan more, I just disagree with that reasoning). The only facts are that the goaltending numbers and the quality of chances the Stars are giving up is absolutely atrocious.

As for your last part, they've only thrown out that many skaters because of injury. The only real merit demotion was Fistric. The rest were necessity, not choice, so it's not a fair comparison.
So just pointing out that there is a problem and doing nothing is a better option than trying something that they haven't.



Whatever .... I don't care.

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Old
12-20-2008, 11:24 PM
  #34
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My brain went boom. Sorry chad!


Last edited by Kritter471: 12-20-2008 at 11:30 PM. Reason: Edit for whoopsies.
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Old
12-20-2008, 11:27 PM
  #35
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Did Avery all of a sudden enter of forum? The cancer spreading is obvious!

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12-20-2008, 11:28 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigG44 View Post
So just pointing out that there is a problem and doing nothing is a better option than trying something that they haven't.



Whatever .... I don't care.
If the biggest problem isn't goaltending, as I believe, than changing goaltending does nothing to address the real problem. That's my point.

It's like... if your car overheats because your radiator fluid is low, and you pull over to the side to let the engine cool down but you don't replace the fluid. Yeah, you're doing something, but it's not fixing what's wrong.

That's a horrible analogy. I apologize in advance for it. I know knothing about how cars work.

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12-20-2008, 11:29 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Kritter471 View Post
I think you just quoted yourself instead of me.
Eh? I was quoting BigG and Piqued.

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Old
12-20-2008, 11:31 PM
  #38
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Eh? I was quoting BigG and Piqued.
I edited. That's what I get for multitasking.

*smacks self on hand with ruler*

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Old
12-20-2008, 11:36 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by BigG44 View Post
You can't apply the same argument to a rookie. They can't learn if they don't make mistakes.

Dave Tippett has become the biggest freaking hypocrite. Parrish goes out on a nightly basis and sucks it up yet he gets rewarded with quality time with the Top 3 centers. Darryl Sydor has played worse than any defenseman on the team this year. Even Janik has played better yet heíll never see the bench.
This. OMG, thank you for articulating what's in my head but I just hadn't been able to put into words. He's insanely strict about rookies screwing up and sitting on the bench but god forbid Sydor being acknowledged as horrible. He was being scratched nightly in Pittsburgh for a reason. Outside of the Detroit game he's been nothing short of awful. Yet here's Hutchinson. A journeyman also who, although he hasn't scored, has played well. Makes good exit passes out of the zone and has the athleticism to actually skate the puck out of danger. He's not a top pairing guy but I don't cringe everytime I see his number. He needs to play more.

Just like Wilson is a good forth liner but scratch Barch. Never. It's old. Just like trying to force these guys into a tight defensive team just isn't who these players are. A new system a little more offensive and transistional should be employed. Yet here we are beating square pegs, but not actually fitting them into the round holes. Turco's on a pace to play 67+ games with the worst save percentage of starting goalie since the 1980s and free wheeling hockey.

It's not working and it's time to say enough.

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12-20-2008, 11:40 PM
  #40
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Kritter ... What should the Stars do then?

Call up Vishnevskiy? Everyone that has seen him play has said his defense is bad. ________ even said he was benched 2 games last week because of it.

Call up Fistirc? I would say yes. He and Niskanen could rotate because for some damn reason we're stuck with sucky *** Sydor. The only problem is that Fistric is hurt. I'm not even sure he started playing again with Manitoba.

Playing Stephan is a real option. It doesn’t hurt to let him play. Turco's the annoying p***k that said Dallas Stars are "men". They're going to play like "men", and they have to be accountable like "men".

Turco isn't being held accountable for his poor play. He is one of many that deserve to get benched. 100% of the bad play isn’t on the team, and 100% of the bad play isn’t on the goalie. However, if Dallas can get better play from somewhere, they could win on a consistent basis.

Hell, Turco doesn’t even need to be benched in the traditional sense, a week or 2. If anything, try a 2 goalie system for 2 weeks. Turco went out and destroyed the Red Wings by himself basically. Stephan followed up that with lights out play in front of a tired and bad Dallas team. Turco looked refreshed and won his next start against the ‘Yotes and played terrible against the Jackets and Sens. This entire season, Turco hasn’t been able to string good games together.

When some of the load was given to Stephan though, Turco played pretty well.

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12-20-2008, 11:47 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kritter471 View Post
If the biggest problem isn't goaltending, as I believe, than changing goaltending does nothing to address the real problem. That's my point.

It's like... if your car overheats because your radiator fluid is low, and you pull over to the side to let the engine cool down but you don't replace the fluid. Yeah, you're doing something, but it's not fixing what's wrong.

That's a horrible analogy. I apologize in advance for it. I know knothing about how cars work.


God that made me laugh. What you said in theory is correct regarding a car.

Weíre just not going to agree though. Not giving a chance to Stephan is stupid to me. I never claimed it was going to fix it. My point is that youíll never know if you donítí try, and if this team isnít trying every possible solution to turn this **** around them Iím going to be pissed.

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12-20-2008, 11:53 PM
  #42
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Biggie - I don't know what the solution is. It's a hell of a situation, because the Stars relied to heavily on the fact that everyone would either maintain or get better when that rarely happens. Now they're stuck with a very poor personnel set and few options. The one bright spot is the cap will probably be stagnant or drop next year, leaving many teams in a money lurch. Perhaps that will open up some more trading.

As for right now, playing Stephan for the purpose of giving Turco some days off has merit, as I've said above. Then they need to start scratching the worst of the defensemen when Grossman is healthy. If that means Sydor and Niskanen spend more nights in the press box than not, so be it.

The same can be applied to the forwards, but the options there are more contingent on positions, wingers and matchups because there a group of spares who are all pretty equally useless.

Then start looking for trades. If the right one isn't there, and it may well may not be, then don't force it (ala Sydor for Boucher). But keep an eye out, because I don't think the major issues will be addressed until the personnel issues are addressed

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12-20-2008, 11:56 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigG44 View Post


God that made me laugh. What you said in theory is correct regarding a car.

Weíre just not going to agree though. Not giving a chance to Stephan is stupid to me. I never claimed it was going to fix it. My point is that youíll never know if you donítí try, and if this team isnít trying every possible solution to turn this **** around them Iím going to be pissed.
Yay b.s.ing my way into a plausible analogy!

And yeah. Probably a good agree to disagree point, though I think we agree on a lot more than it sounds like. We just disagree, I think, on the root causes. And they've got enough right now I can totally see how that happens.

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12-21-2008, 01:38 AM
  #44
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Fistric played his first game after knee surgery on Friday 12/19.

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12-21-2008, 01:48 AM
  #45
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In case there's any confusion, I agree that the defense shares blame for the team's poor results. But I used SV% for a reason. You can't isolate a goalie from his defense. But you can start making improvements somewhere with the aim of changing the larger picture.

That said, I'm not terribly concerned about the defense. You put a league-average goalie behind a group of Robidas/Grossman/Daley/Niskanen/Fistric/Hutchinson and I believe the desired results will follow.

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12-21-2008, 11:51 AM
  #46
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I see the problem as slightly different. Sure Turco has sucked. Sure many of the Dman have struggled as individuals. The real problem IMO is the entire group plays like a bunch of individuals. You could have an allstar team out there and if theres no cohesiveness they are going to get lit up on the back end.

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12-21-2008, 11:59 AM
  #47
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Turcos number one strength was never consistent puck stopping. While hes good at it, hes always left soft ones in from time to time. What made him special is when the stars made teams dump the puck in turco was all over it, basically preventing shots from ever occuring. The stars do not play good enough defense to cause teams to frequently dump the puck in this season. They dont slow them down enough in the neutral zone and by the time it hits the blueline, the dmen back off and the other team has no gained the zone with speed. This effectively neutralizes Turcos puckhandling ability and perhaps has magnified his sloppy acrobatic goaltending style.

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12-21-2008, 02:07 PM
  #48
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^ That's a good point.

I think the team has gotten slightly better with forcing dump-ins than at the beginning of the year when there were big problems getting the forwards to backcheck responsibly and the gap was forcing the D to back off at the line. It's still nowhere near the level it was against, say, Anaheim in the 1st round last spring.

But other teams are also adjusting. The book is out there on what the Stars want to do, and even when a team is forced to dump it in at the line, you can see that they're making a concerted effort to deaden it or go cross-corner. This goes back to the idea of Tippett refusing to adjust to his personnel and continuing to force them into the old pattern.

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12-21-2008, 08:13 PM
  #49
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I was thinking...compared to the rest of the league...how is Marty stacking up?

Last place. I did not see one goalie with a worse save % compared to the number of games played. He is letting in goals that he would normally save..for the most part. We all see Marty letting in some weak goals, but this is just sad.

I think his mojo has gone on vacation for the season.

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01-04-2009, 01:29 PM
  #50
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15 days later, Turco is showing remarkable consistency as he remains firmly entrenched at .880% -- now good enough for dead last, #47th in the league, among goalies who have played enough minutes to qualify for the "leaderboard".

Coincidentally, or perhaps not, Turco does come in 2nd in TOI trailing only Kipper. 5 minutes into his next game he'll cross the 2000 minute mark -- in early January.


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