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12/21/08 "...Comin' Down The Mountain" - Avalanche VS. Panthers

View Poll Results: Who wins this game?
Panthers 17 100.00%
Avalanche 0 0%
Voters: 17. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
12-21-2008, 10:20 PM
  #51
CanadianPantherFan
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My question to you all... how many points did we have last year at the Christmas break? Points and games played at that point and time.

I say the jerseys circulating BAC. next season should be:

1. Booth
=======
2.Ballard
3. Weiss/Horton/Frolik/Anderson<darkhorse
*Boynton jersey was ultra popular in Boston so I hear


I believe TiVo has lost some love with the Floridian fans (not me , maybe a touch only because of Anderson's play but I believe in TiVo for the next year or so until Prince Markstrom arrives and really saves this franchise). Bou jerseys could dissapear soon too unless he signs a three year contract.

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Old
12-21-2008, 10:28 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghoste View Post
BTW, Lappy's fight with Tarnasky really turned things around for them. I think that goal they almost scored at the end of the 2nd period give them a bit of a jump as well.
agree about horton and also agree on this point; up 2-0 against a team that didn't look like it had ONE goal in it isn't the time to throw down with their tough guy. i like the willingness but he's gotta pick his spots better. i didn't like it when it happened because i feared it would spark them and it seemed to. let sleeping dogs lie, nasty.

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12-21-2008, 10:32 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianPantherFan View Post
Bou jerseys could dissapear soon too unless he signs a three year contract.
Naturally, considering I own one...

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12-21-2008, 10:35 PM
  #54
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Before you flame, go to a game, wait for a shift when Horton is on the ice and just watch Horton. Horton frustrates me. He's like a Ferrari that won't get out of first or second gear. I would be more willing to forgive any other player who just came back from injury. With Horton, it's just the same half effort that I am used to seeing from him. Funny that you would defend him 0.G. since he seems to have picked up Olli's bad habits.

If DeBoer can figure out how to get Horton to get himself involved, this team would be considerably more dangerous.

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12-21-2008, 10:40 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by angry_treefrog View Post
If DeBoer can figure out how to get Horton to get himself involved, this team would be considerably more dangerous.
That's definitely true! I did see Horton hit a bit more than he normally does and he did turn on the jets a few times but it's still not the overall effort I want to see from our "best forward".

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12-21-2008, 10:40 PM
  #56
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Horton will get goin don't worry... He's just gotta get one, get a little confidence and he will get hot... He always has streaks, plus he was out so give him a few games.

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Old
12-21-2008, 10:43 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by angry_treefrog View Post
Before you flame, go to a game, wait for a shift when Horton is on the ice and just watch Horton. Horton frustrates me. He's like a Ferrari that won't get out of first or second gear. I would be more willing to forgive any other player who just came back from injury. With Horton, it's just the same half effort that I am used to seeing from him. Funny that you would defend him 0.G. since he seems to have picked up Olli's bad habits.

If DeBoer can figure out how to get Horton to get himself involved, this team would be considerably more dangerous.
"Timmy"Horton/Scott Niedermayer are the types of players that TV. gives no justice to their games.

One is sooooo soooo good in his own end, and great in playoff games if you got a chance to see any of them live... and the other is listless and does not skate hard/backcheck with intention plus would get torched in a playoff series with his weak puck possession skills and ability to get into the tough areas of the ice when the "goin" gets tough.

I know it might not be fair to compare a dman to a forward, or a vet to a young kid who has not met his potential or a guy who's played in multiple playoff series/won rings while the other guy has not accomplished much at all.

I just thought it was a great comparsion of what a joy one guy is watch live where tv. gives his game no justice at all...to the other guy who could have you pulling your hair out in your seat at the game


Last edited by CanadianPantherFan: 12-21-2008 at 10:48 PM.
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Old
12-21-2008, 10:51 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianPantherFan View Post
"Timmy"Horton/Scott Niedermayer are the types of players that TV. gives no justice to their games.

One is sooooo soooo good in his own end, and great in playoff games if you got a chance to see any of them live... and the other is listless and does not skate hard/backcheck with intention plus would get torched in a playoff series with his weak puck possession skills and ability to get into the tough areas of the ice when the "goin" gets tough.

I know it might not be fair to compare a dman to a forward, or a vet to a young kid who has not met his potential or a guy who's played in multiple playoff series/won rings while the other guy has not.

I just thought it was a great comparsion of what a joy one guy is watch live where tv. gives his game no justice at all...to the other guy who could have you pulling your hair out in your seat at the game
Very well said. I agree.

Mind you, I want Horton to succeed and I would love to eat crow on this one.

He just drives me nuts.

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12-21-2008, 10:57 PM
  #59
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My question to you all... how many points did we have last year at the Christmas break? Points and games played at that point and time.
Last year, after 33 games, we were 15-16-2

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12-21-2008, 11:12 PM
  #60
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Last year, after 33 games, we were 15-16-2
that's disappointing I thought we would have a better improvement after our recent streak.

Last Year: 15 wins 18 losses (33gp)
This Year: 15 wins 17 loses (32 gp)

We need to get past .500!!!

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12-21-2008, 11:33 PM
  #61
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that's disappointing I thought we would have a better improvement after our recent streak.

Last Year: 15 wins 18 losses (33gp)
This Year: 15 wins 17 loses (32 gp)

We need to get past .500!!!
Last year: 16 Road Games/16 Home Games (most games against non-playoff teams and no west coast swings)
This Year: 19 Road Games/13 Home Games (more games against top teams w/3 west coast swings)

Most teams, including the Panthers, play better at home.

We're definitely a better team this year.

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Old
12-21-2008, 11:33 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by CanadianPantherFan View Post
... with his weak puck possession skills...
Are you talking about Horton? That kid has good puck possession and stickhandling skills.

If you were talking about McLean I would've believed you. He gets beaten off the puck virtually every single time.

-ghoste

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Old
12-21-2008, 11:39 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Madhatter73 View Post
Last year: 16 Road Games/16 Home Games (most games against non-playoff teams and no west coast swings)
This Year: 19 Road Games/13 Home Games (more games against top teams w/3 west coast swings)

Most teams, including the Panthers, play better at home.

We're definitely a better team this year.

Last years team lost 8 of the next 10, from this point. Hopefully this years team will win 8 of the next 10.

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Old
12-21-2008, 11:48 PM
  #64
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just my 2 cents but it seems to me that...

..Olli and Nate have a lot in common. Both were projected to be power forwards, both drafted very high, both arrived with great expectations and, as the new wore off, both were thought to be somewhat disappointing. Jokinen exhausted the management of the Kings (although to be fair he was the centerpiece of the Palffy trade) and Isles before he wore out his welcome among the majority of fans here. Many members here agreed that they would gladly accept a 3rd round pick for Olli at his low. But Mike Keenan (ugh, I hate that guy) pushed the right buttons at the right time and poof!

So maybe this is a good time to remember that big power forwards (among others) can sometimes be a bit slow to develop and test the patience of even the most understanding fans. Still, it's usually worth the wait because when they DO find their game it's a wonderful development and and you were there to witness it.

Horton (like Jokinen) has been skating along, surviving in the NHL on his god-given talent alone, not reaching deeper to take his game to a new level. But I have faith both in him and even moreso in this new coach of ours.





..now watch him get traded

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12-22-2008, 03:54 AM
  #65
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What a game by Panthers the first 35 mins. Then a little let down. Luckily Vokoun was sharp. What on earth was up with Dvorak-Peltonen. Nice passing. Dvorak and Pelts played an awesome two way game. Ballard awesome CLEAN hits.

How about the record when Campbell gets a point. Something like 10-0-2

Frolik is turning into an awesome player. I think the player we all hoped Olesz would turn into. Great two way play and he steals the puck alot.

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12-22-2008, 04:40 AM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heimy View Post
..Olli and Nate have a lot in common. Both were projected to be power forwards, both drafted very high, both arrived with great expectations and, as the new wore off, both were thought to be somewhat disappointing. Jokinen exhausted the management of the Kings (although to be fair he was the centerpiece of the Palffy trade) and Isles before he wore out his welcome among the majority of fans here. Many members here agreed that they would gladly accept a 3rd round pick for Olli at his low. But Mike Keenan (ugh, I hate that guy) pushed the right buttons at the right time and poof!

So maybe this is a good time to remember that big power forwards (among others) can sometimes be a bit slow to develop and test the patience of even the most understanding fans. Still, it's usually worth the wait because when they DO find their game it's a wonderful development and and you were there to witness it.

Horton (like Jokinen) has been skating along, surviving in the NHL on his god-given talent alone, not reaching deeper to take his game to a new level. But I have faith both in him and even moreso in this new coach of ours.





..now watch him get traded
The issue with this comparison is that Horton has produced (and well) at a young age, which OJ never did. Jokinen was considered an absolute bust, something Horton can never truely be considered. OJ slowly got better, whilst with Horton, it seems to be the opposite. He is regressing each year, especially with effort.

The powerforward idea is all well and good, but haven't we being saying the same about Stewart for years as well? Now i never watched OJ when he was younger, but would the assumption that his effort was good be fair? Because i watched the game last night, and i cannot remember one useful play from Horton's stick.

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12-22-2008, 05:30 AM
  #67
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Irony: The team wins 3-0 in a shutout after winning the GDT poll 16-0 in a shutout

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12-22-2008, 06:12 AM
  #68
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Are you talking about Horton? That kid has good puck possession and stickhandling skills.
-ghoste
You really need to go see a game.

For a big guy, Horton is knocked off the puck way too easily.

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12-22-2008, 06:24 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
The issue with this comparison is that Horton has produced (and well) at a young age, which OJ never did. Jokinen was considered an absolute bust, something Horton can never truely be considered. OJ slowly got better, whilst with Horton, it seems to be the opposite. He is regressing each year, especially with effort.

The powerforward idea is all well and good, but haven't we being saying the same about Stewart for years as well? Now i never watched OJ when he was younger, but would the assumption that his effort was good be fair? Because i watched the game last night, and i cannot remember one useful play from Horton's stick.
was olli projected to be a "power" forward? that just doesn't seem right. he's not a physical player. anyhow, the comparison does fall flat becuase as you point out, horton's already established himself as a 60+ pt guy. one thing that i question though is whether nate has really found himself as a pro yet. i think he is, to an extend, getting by on natural talent.

i may not understand your question about olli or how it relates to horton but, on the surface, it makes no sense. in response to the first, i always disliked olli's game. he was so frequently 2 steps behind the play in the defensive zone. i always attributed that to effort. i suppose if i were to try to be fair, i could give him the benefit of the doubt and say the effort was there but he just didn't really understand the center's defensive responsibilities in the nhl game. that doesn't really jive with the player he's developed into though. while not a terrible +/-, he's not a great 2-way player at all. in any event, there's a huge disconnect here - where does "effort" meet "useful plays coming of his stick"??? it doesn't. a guy can work his *** off and still have nothing to show for it (and have fans saying the types of things they are in this forum). it's just very difficult to judge effort in the offensive end, imo. is he working hard on the backcheck? is he getting his nose dirty on both ends when called for? that's what i look at.

don't get me wrong, i feel pretty strongly that horton's got a lot of work to do to approach his potential and fear he may not have the makeup of a guy a "great" player at the end of the day. even now, he could be such a powerful force even when not scoring but he seems not really sure about what type of game he's going to play. is he a bruising power forward? a sniper? both? in any case, it seems like he's not really doing enough to create shots for himself when his linemates aren't able to and that, imo, is why he hasn't been as successful this year.

and the stewart comment? c'mon. anybody who's watched the kid (yes, he's still young, as it horton) play can see that he's finding his game. it's happening slowly but there's been steady improvement the last couple of years and, though he's not going to break out offensively just yet, you can see some signs he'll be able to contribute - even if it's at the level of a 3rd line type player - pretty soon.

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12-22-2008, 06:33 AM
  #70
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was olli projected to be a "power" forward? that just doesn't seem right. he's not a physical player. anyhow, the comparison does fall flat becuase as you point out, horton's already established himself as a 60+ pt guy. one thing that i question though is whether nate has really found himself as a pro yet. i think he is, to an extend, getting by on natural talent.

i may not understand your question about olli or how it relates to horton but, on the surface, it makes no sense. in response to the first, i always disliked olli's game. he was so frequently 2 steps behind the play in the defensive zone. i always attributed that to effort. i suppose if i were to try to be fair, i could give him the benefit of the doubt and say the effort was there but he just didn't really understand the center's defensive responsibilities in the nhl game. that doesn't really jive with the player he's developed into though. while not a terrible +/-, he's not a great 2-way player at all. in any event, there's a huge disconnect here - where does "effort" meet "useful plays coming of his stick"??? it doesn't. a guy can work his *** off and still have nothing to show for it (and have fans saying the types of things they are in this forum). it's just very difficult to judge effort in the offensive end, imo. is he working hard on the backcheck? is he getting his nose dirty on both ends when called for? that's what i look at.

don't get me wrong, i feel pretty strongly that horton's got a lot of work to do to approach his potential and fear he may not have the makeup of a guy a "great" player at the end of the day. even now, he could be such a powerful force even when not scoring but he seems not really sure about what type of game he's going to play. is he a bruising power forward? a sniper? both? in any case, it seems like he's not really doing enough to create shots for himself when his linemates aren't able to and that, imo, is why he hasn't been as successful this year.

and the stewart comment? c'mon. anybody who's watched the kid (yes, he's still young, as it horton) play can see that he's finding his game. it's happening slowly but there's been steady improvement the last couple of years and, though he's not going to break out offensively just yet, you can see some signs he'll be able to contribute - even if it's at the level of a 3rd line type player - pretty soon.
1. Horton was projected as a power forward as was Stewart

2. Horton has more potential (IMO) than Jokinen

3. Horton is not working his *** off. I actually wonder if he breaks a sweat.

4. Horton needs to go find himself, but not in a Ricky-Williams-sort-of-way.

5. I like Stewart, but even you have to admit that his development has been slower than any of us had hoped. I was hoping he would be further along at this point of the season after showing some glimpses earlier on. The fact that he was a healthy scratch last night shows that DeBoer agrees.

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12-22-2008, 06:49 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by angry_treefrog View Post
1. Horton was projected as a power forward as was Stewart

2. Horton has more potential (IMO) than Jokinen

3. Horton is not working his *** off. I actually wonder if he breaks a sweat.

4. Horton needs to go find himself, but not in a Ricky-Williams-sort-of-way.

5. I like Stewart, but even you have to admit that his development has been slower than any of us had hoped. I was hoping he would be further along at this point of the season after showing some glimpses earlier on. The fact that he was a healthy scratch last night shows that DeBoer agrees.
1. i never questioned nate or stewie's projections, i questioned olli's. he's a big guy but there's not much physicality to his game.

2. i agree.

3. we disagree. i think he could do more to get himself into game physically (try going out and hitting 2 or 3 people your first shift, nate?) and more to create his own shots. i wouldn't say he works his *** off - that was more a reference to guys like mclean. i don't think it's fair to say he's not showing any effort though.

4. i agree completely. that was the gist of my post.

5. disagree. at this point, stewie and nasty are interchangeable. they're both giving us some punishing speed and size but not much else. i think he was just switching them up (one's gotta sit every night now) to keep them hungry/sharp. now that everyone's healthy, PDB can reward guys who are giving him that little bit extra in terms of productivity and that's why i think tarnasky, on the strength of his nice assist last night, will get the start the next game (or two).

has stewart's development been slow? yeah but that was not my point. you can clearly see progress. i don't think PDB was expecting miracles this season from anthony. i think he understands it's a process. i'd be surprised if he gets 3 goals this year, especially with the guys he's playing with. that doesn't mean the year will be a failure though. the fact that he's able to go out there and eat up 10 minutes a game, be responsible in his own end and a physical force on the forecheck is a giant leap forward. you can see growing confidence with the puck and that's why i think that, if he resigns, we'll start to see some productivity in terms of points next year. not much but something. i'd like to see JM resign him for a couple of more years to see what we can coax out of him offensively as he finds himself. he's a good kid.

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12-22-2008, 08:18 AM
  #72
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I've seen progress from Stewart, but really only this year. There was a TAD bit of progress last season, but this year (even by his own account) he put in a lot more work into being an NHL player. Not to mention, he seems to understand that if you're a rookie/fringe player you've got to show up and skate hard -- something that was surely lacking last year.

Jokinen was projected as a power forward.

Horton needs to just simply be a healthy scratch for once. It's never happened, but I think it just might help.

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12-22-2008, 08:31 AM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Race against NINE View Post
Irony: The team wins 3-0 in a shutout after winning the GDT poll 16-0 in a shutout
16-0-1 in the voting, with the 1being me because I didnt vote lol.

I agree with what most have to say about Nate, but in no way do I want to give up on him just yet. He has abilities like Heatley, and could be such a dominating player for us. I still have hope that PDB can get him going into the player we all know he can be. A post Christmas of PDB's version of Horton, and the play of Frolik, could really be a big boost to this team. This could really be the most complete team we have ever had in South Florida. We just need Nate to make that big step, and we are on our way.

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12-22-2008, 08:44 AM
  #74
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16-0-1 in the voting, with the 1being me because I didnt vote lol.
No - you didn't vote, so you don't count

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12-22-2008, 08:50 AM
  #75
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I've seen progress from Stewart, but really only this year. There was a TAD bit of progress last season, but this year (even by his own account) he put in a lot more work into being an NHL player. Not to mention, he seems to understand that if you're a rookie/fringe player you've got to show up and skate hard -- something that was surely lacking last year.

Jokinen was projected as a power forward.

Horton needs to just simply be a healthy scratch for once. It's never happened, but I think it just might help.
if you have anything to point at on the olli projection, that'd be great. i guess it's not uncommon to see kids who are physically dominant in junior hockey but never really carry that over to the nhl. maybe that's the case.

regarding stewart, well... you say what you will about his effort last year but if all that you say is true, how come i was able to tell you last year that there was progress (progress you admit you see this year)? i think we're looking at different things. it was not simply a matter of showing up and skating hard. a better off-season has helped (he definitely looks a half-step quicker) but, imo, that's not the difference. he's also playing in front of a D that's moving the puck better and allowing the grinders to get in and do their job. it's just that simple, rattrick.

wrt horton, now is not the time to scratch him. before the injury, i might have agreed as the team needed some kind of spark and, as their best player, i felt he was one of the few who could supply it. now, there's some energy and a nascent identity inside of which he can work on finding his game.

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