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12/21/08 "...Comin' Down The Mountain" - Avalanche VS. Panthers

View Poll Results: Who wins this game?
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Old
12-22-2008, 08:53 AM
  #76
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I've seen progress from Stewart, but really only this year. There was a TAD bit of progress last season, but this year (even by his own account) he put in a lot more work into being an NHL player. Not to mention, he seems to understand that if you're a rookie/fringe player you've got to show up and skate hard -- something that was surely lacking last year.

Jokinen was projected as a power forward.

Horton needs to just simply be a healthy scratch for once. It's never happened, but I think it just might help.
Stewart was overhyped by us, and never really had the top line potential we thought (some said Stewart > Horton).

As for Horton, his potential is still big, but this is the first year that i'd happily say, i wish we had drafted somebody else. If you are 23 and still cannot be asked to do anything useful in most games, there is something wrong. That 2003 draft is actually looking horrific for us now. Man did we royally screw up. Draft well there, we'd be set.

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12-22-2008, 08:55 AM
  #77
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Jokinen was projected as a power forward.
Wasn't he compared to Forsberg when he was drafted, and that's part of why the expectations were set so high for him?

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12-22-2008, 09:04 AM
  #78
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Don't know how people have an issue with Tarnasky going with Lappy when he did, it was a chippy game and he was sending as much a message as Ian was. Was a good scrap and both teams responded well to the fight. Was impressed that he dropped them with Lappy, good first fight.

Nate seems to to be picking up where Olli left off, doesn't seem like he "gets it." I guess I'm expecting a lot from him, but I don't think I am, just more "effort." And before I'm roasted for that, look at the difference in him when he's angry, two different players, that's just ridiculous.

Great first goal by McLean and great feed by Nasty. McLean's been doing the same things all season, he was rewarded last night. While I felt that he could use a benching at times, I did think about it and as Zero says (over and over and over-kidding man), DeBoer does know more than many of us. We were all ready to see Frolik sent back, especially since he had been sitting on the bench in the opening few games. DeBoer saw enough in him to keep him up...and send Matthias down.

That said, DeBoer's a much different coach verbally out there. Practices are different, too, which is where I picked up on this (thanks to Murph, who attends a lot mre practices than I get to). DeBoer uses players nicknames and is always talking. Telling them to pick it up more, do this, do that. Pulls them over to the glass, writes on the dry-erase board, they go out and execute it. Pretty fun to watch, you could see the difference the first day of practice. Love this guy...

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12-22-2008, 09:16 AM
  #79
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On Horton: I completely agree with ATF that if you follow Horton's play through full shifts (not on TV), his effort and contribution just aren't there, compared to the other guys. Horton is usually the first one off the ice, he doesn't finish his checks, and he doesn't get his nose dirty in the corners. This was one of my main criticisms of Jokinen, and Horton seems to play the same game. By not getting really physically involved, he just doesn't get in the flow of the game. It's ridiculous that Ville and Radek deliver more crushing checks than Nate.

On clipping: I admit I had to look this one up, but there's no way Ballard's hit was clipping. Not even close. First off, it was way above the knees, second it was an awesome hip check, like earlier in first period. Later in third Ballard had another chance but he passed on it (probably because of the call).
From Wikipedia: Clipping is generally recognized as hitting an opposing player at or below the other player's knees. Clipping should not be confused with hip checking. .... It is one of the least-called penalties in the sport. Historically, players penalized for clipping are labeled as "dirty" players, as clipping is nearly always viewed as attempt to injure an opponent.
From AnswerBag: How to get a clipping penalty. Step 1: Lower your body by either bending all the way down to the ice in a crouched position or throwing your body onto the ice, such as sliding on your knees or falling on your stomach. Step 2: Hit an opposing player below the knees with your body.

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12-22-2008, 09:24 AM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
That said, DeBoer's a much different coach verbally out there. Practices are different, too, which is where I picked up on this (thanks to Murph, who attends a lot mre practices than I get to). DeBoer uses players nicknames and is always talking. Telling them to pick it up more, do this, do that. Pulls them over to the glass, writes on the dry-erase board, they go out and execute it. Pretty fun to watch, you could see the difference the first day of practice. Love this guy...
Any idea what he's telling Horton? Is he getting singled out? How is Horton responding? I could be a little more lenient on Nate if I knew that he was really trying but maybe just thinking too much, trying not to make mistakes and thus resulting in not being involved. It shows especially when he's without the puck - he's waiting for the puck to come to him instead of vice versa.

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12-22-2008, 09:34 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by KWGoon View Post
Any idea what he's telling Horton? Is he getting singled out? How is Horton responding? I could be a little more lenient on Nate if I knew that he was really trying but maybe just thinking too much, trying not to make mistakes and thus resulting in not being involved. It shows especially when he's without the puck - he's waiting for the puck to come to him instead of vice versa.
I've only been to two practices, where Murphy said they were pretty consistent. He didn't single anyone out, just had guys working on different drills, though, he had the groups usually the same. Some guys do come out a bit or early or stay late to work on things. Haven't seen or heard of Nate doing that.

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12-22-2008, 09:48 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
I've only been to two practices, where Murphy said they were pretty consistent. He didn't single anyone out, just had guys working on different drills, though, he had the groups usually the same. Some guys do come out a bit or early or stay late to work on things. Haven't seen or heard of Nate doing that.
The only time I heard of Nate doing that was before the Canes game last week, when the guys coming back from injuries stayed on the ice for about 20 minutes working on drills to get them into game shape. Nate may needs a reality check, meaning a benching, playing 4th line time, or being sent to Rochester if possible. But I thought he played OK last night, so I say we just give it some time before doing anything drastic.

BTW...if anyone was at the game last night, did you notice two new screens anywhere in the arena? I read in an article that they were installing two new screens before this homestand.

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12-22-2008, 09:49 AM
  #83
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if you have anything to point at on the olli projection, that'd be great. i guess it's not uncommon to see kids who are physically dominant in junior hockey but never really carry that over to the nhl. maybe that's the case.

regarding stewart, well... you say what you will about his effort last year but if all that you say is true, how come i was able to tell you last year that there was progress (progress you admit you see this year)? i think we're looking at different things. it was not simply a matter of showing up and skating hard. a better off-season has helped (he definitely looks a half-step quicker) but, imo, that's not the difference. he's also playing in front of a D that's moving the puck better and allowing the grinders to get in and do their job. it's just that simple, rattrick.

wrt horton, now is not the time to scratch him. before the injury, i might have agreed as the team needed some kind of spark and, as their best player, i felt he was one of the few who could supply it. now, there's some energy and a nascent identity inside of which he can work on finding his game.
Really, are the defensive puck movers the answer to everything? That's a reach there. I guess DeBoer knowing more than all of us also helps Stewart?

Stewart didn't grind last year, he barely hit and he surely didn't skate hard. You claimed "how can you tell he's not skating hard", but this year obviously proves that he is capable of much more in the skating department than he showed last year and I'll tell you he didn't just magically get faster. His effort this year is much better and that's why he's become a more useful player.

I know it's not just about showing up and skating hard, but if you want to stay in the NHL as a player who is a rookie/fringe guy, you damn well better at least do that. If you show up and play hard, things will come to you as a player. I know cause I've preached that to kids and it always comes back around to them.

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12-22-2008, 09:50 AM
  #84
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I don't want this team to give up on Horton yet.

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12-22-2008, 09:51 AM
  #85
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happy for the win. we were awso0me in the 1st, but the avs gave us a game in the second and especially the tird. we were a bit lucky that their first goal was a heartbeat late and the second goal was whistled before it crossed. would have been a very diferent game had that happened!!! no problem with nasty dropping them. the avs were going to fight someone to shake things up no matter what!!!! i'd still rather see stewie in there with nasty rather than mc clain whi i believe should get a few nights off. i like stewies progress and like what nasty brings. horton showed a little jump, but needs to pick it up more.
overall a good effort, but not a dominant defeat.
ggggoooo cccccaaaatttts!!!! bring it home this year!!!!
carolina keeps urking out the w'ss. ugh!!!!!

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12-22-2008, 09:52 AM
  #86
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Angrytreefrog makes a good point about having to watch--if not study--a player closely during a game to see what's really going on. I think that's the reason McCabe got dumped on so much in Toronto, people didn't see the entire package, only what they wanted to see.

So I've been doing that as much as I can with Horton, as much as is possible on TV, which I admit is not anywhere near as good as being at the game in person.

So tell me, WHY do you think Horton's not producing. Booth was injured. He was flying last night. Granted, injuries differ. But Booth's been flying all year. He's dangerous every time he gets the puck, which is something one can't really say about Horton.

One would think that people would be excited to be playing in the NHL, excited to produce. Horton doesn't seem to be to excited to me...but I could be completely misjudging him. What do you think?

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12-22-2008, 10:00 AM
  #87
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Don't know how people have an issue with Tarnasky going with Lappy when he did, it was a chippy game and he was sending as much a message as Ian was. Was a good scrap and both teams responded well to the fight. Was impressed that he dropped them with Lappy, good first fight.

Nate seems to to be picking up where Olli left off, doesn't seem like he "gets it." I guess I'm expecting a lot from him, but I don't think I am, just more "effort." And before I'm roasted for that, look at the difference in him when he's angry, two different players, that's just ridiculous.
on the first one, sure it was a good scrap but why send a message that wakes up a sleeping team? timing is everything in a fight so you have to pick your spots. that, imo, was not the time to show you're willing to scrap with anybody. also don't agree that it was a chippy game. other than the two rows after ballard's hits, there was hardly anything going on after the whistle and the hitting, what there was of it, was pretty innocuous. imo, it was a stretch to call that a necessary fight.

i agree that nate has more of an impact when he's being aggressive, when he's physically in the game. i'm not sure he's more productive offensively but at least he's impacting the game.

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Any idea what he's telling Horton? Is he getting singled out? How is Horton responding? I could be a little more lenient on Nate if I knew that he was really trying but maybe just thinking too much, trying not to make mistakes and thus resulting in not being involved. It shows especially when he's without the puck - he's waiting for the puck to come to him instead of vice versa.
i think he really is trying. i don't know that he's worried about mistakes. i do think he's looking for seams, places he can sneak in where his linemates can get him the puck for shots. he's got a potentially lethal shot and if he's doing that effectively and guys are getting him the puck, he'd be scoring and nobody would be complaining about his effort. you could call that waiting for the puck but i'm not sure there's as much of a negative connotation as you're attaching to it.

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12-22-2008, 10:11 AM
  #88
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I just think this organization would be really sorry if we yet again dealt away a player we didn't wait for, and then goes on to thrive in another location. Yeah, Horton has hit a barrier after scoring 30 goals, but I don't necessarily think it's regressing. Last season he had a career high in assists (as we all found out he can also pass very well) and had about the equal number of points.

There are a lot of late bloomers in hockey, and I think you can hardly say Horton has bloomed. He's far and away from peaking any time soon and to get rid of him would be taking a step backwards imo.

When I watch him (from TV dont live nowhere near BAC to see him) I don't think he's completely out of the play as he seems to be getting alone and in the "bread and butter" territory of his.

I think some of it is a confidence issue but that's completely speculation, as he passes a lot more in the neutral zone to Booth, and Booth takes off and goes to the net with Horton trailing the play. I'd love to see Horton just take control, go right to the net and unload that lethal shot.

As I said, I'm not there to completely watch every move of his. But I wouldn't think it's completely fair to say he isn't trying. I think he's trying, but just a bit unsure of himself or not sure where exactly he fits on the team. But we all know he could try a lot harder

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12-22-2008, 10:24 AM
  #89
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on the first one, sure it was a good scrap but why send a message that wakes up a sleeping team? timing is everything in a fight so you have to pick your spots. that, imo, was not the time to show you're willing to scrap with anybody. also don't agree that it was a chippy game. other than the two rows after ballard's hits, there was hardly anything going on after the whistle and the hitting, what there was of it, was pretty innocuous. imo, it was a stretch to call that a necessary fight.

i agree that nate has more of an impact when he's being aggressive, when he's physically in the game. i'm not sure he's more productive offensively but at least he's impacting the game.
I generally appreciate your posts, but there's no need to explain to me about fighting and timing and picking spots. It was chippy enough that two fights had previously almost started and Boynton was grabbed on the way to the box. You can't always just decide not to go when you have the lead, A. there's a code between fighters (argue that all you want, I really don't care, it's there and these guys usually play by it. It's about respect and Ian's more prone to recipricate the favor in the future if necessary.), and B. you don't know what was being said out there. While it wasn't an overly agressive game in terms of extra curricular after the whistle, sometimes those games don't have any fights, it was apparently enough where a guy who hadn't fought yet since he joined the team felt the need to go with a good fighter in Lappy. Imo, it's a stretch to say it wasn't necessary.

Impacting the game is what I'm talking about, when Nate's not pissed off, his impact is different. He's an alligator, and opportunist who aggressively attacks the opportunity when it's there, but is content in waiting for it.

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12-22-2008, 10:28 AM
  #90
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Really, are the defensive puck movers the answer to everything? That's a reach there. I guess DeBoer knowing more than all of us also helps Stewart?
fine, be snippy. are puck movers the answer to everything? tell me why every GM is looking for more of them. everything starts with the D and with a roster full of grinders (especially), you need good execution in transition to allow them to do their job effectively. that's just basic hockey. 2 years ago, we had a different roster and guys like peltonen were able to score without as much focus on the super aggressive forecheck. last year, we were rarely able to get that going and, yes, that affects the forecheck and, as a result, guys whose livelyhood may depend on it (that includes stewart last year and this year). it doesn't make a different how hard you're skating, if you don't have speed and a quick and effective breakout/transition, you won't be in on the puck quick enough to do anything. we've seen it this year on quite a few occasions. and...

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Stewart didn't grind last year, he barely hit and he surely didn't skate hard. You claimed "how can you tell he's not skating hard", but this year obviously proves that he is capable of much more in the skating department than he showed last year and I'll tell you he didn't just magically get faster. His effort this year is much better and that's why he's become a more useful player.
that is why this analysis is off. we had no transition last year, no consistent forecheck. that said, i'm not sure it would've made that much of a difference. he is skating better and with purpose this year. he looks more confident. he is, as i mentioned, a bit quicker too. there is a difference between what i'm saying and the explanation you're offering. you say "i saw nothing". i watched him closely last year when he played and he just looked like he was a little tentative at times. i saw effort and skating. what i'm seeing now is just an amplification of what i saw last year. maybe folks just aren't catching those nuances?

i keep hammering on this and players keep mentioning it but confidence can make all the difference in the world. so many just refuse to acknowledge this and/or factor it into their analysis. it's easy to bash these guys and look at things in black and white. is it a black and white world or are there a lot subtler shades of gray?

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I know it's not just about showing up and skating hard, but if you want to stay in the NHL as a player who is a rookie/fringe guy, you damn well better at least do that. If you show up and play hard, things will come to you as a player. I know cause I've preached that to kids and it always comes back around to them.
fine. that's an obvious truism, rattrick. it's also very simple with young kids. again, i don't think it was a matter of effort. that's just an overly simple view of things. seems like JM agreed and so far, PDB has as well.

this is a bit OT but i believe some of this stuff applies to horton as well.

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12-22-2008, 10:30 AM
  #91
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I just think this organization would be really sorry if we yet again dealt away a player we didn't wait for, and then goes on to thrive in another location. Yeah, Horton has hit a barrier after scoring 30 goals, but I don't necessarily think it's regressing. Last season he had a career high in assists (as we all found out he can also pass very well) and had about the equal number of points.

There are a lot of late bloomers in hockey, and I think you can hardly say Horton has bloomed. He's far and away from peaking any time soon and to get rid of him would be taking a step backwards imo.

When I watch him (from TV dont live nowhere near BAC to see him) I don't think he's completely out of the play as he seems to be getting alone and in the "bread and butter" territory of his.

I think some of it is a confidence issue but that's completely speculation, as he passes a lot more in the neutral zone to Booth, and Booth takes off and goes to the net with Horton trailing the play. I'd love to see Horton just take control, go right to the net and unload that lethal shot.

As I said, I'm not there to completely watch every move of his. But I wouldn't think it's completely fair to say he isn't trying. I think he's trying, but just a bit unsure of himself or not sure where exactly he fits on the team. But we all know he could try a lot harder
It's not about "blooming" an dwhatnot with him, though, it's about the effort he puts in. He could go elsewhere and be a monster, but he needs to start putting more into his game. There's a clear difference in Weiss, Booth, Stillman, Dvo, and Pelt's game and Horton's...and it's not style, it's hustle.

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12-22-2008, 10:30 AM
  #92
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I generally appreciate your posts, but there's no need to explain to me about fighting and timing and picking spots. It was chippy enough that two fights had previously almost started and Boynton was grabbed on the way to the box. You can't always just decide not to go when you have the lead, A. there's a code between fighters (argue that all you want, I really don't care, it's there and these guys usually play by it. It's about respect and Ian's more prone to recipricate the favor in the future if necessary.), and B. you don't know what was being said out there. While it wasn't an overly agressive game in terms of extra curricular after the whistle, sometimes those games don't have any fights, it was apparently enough where a guy who hadn't fought yet since he joined the team felt the need to go with a good fighter in Lappy. Imo, it's a stretch to say it wasn't necessary.

Impacting the game is what I'm talking about, when Nate's not pissed off, his impact is different. He's an alligator, and opportunist who aggressively attacks the opportunity when it's there, but is content in waiting for it.
But Laus, DeBoer knows a lot more about hockey than us message board guys do. I mean, if not for our defense being able to move the puck, Tarnasky wouldn't have had to fight at all.

Ok, I'll stop...

Tarnasky did the right thing by going with Lap. Boynton did the right thing by sticking up for Ballard (who twice was attacked for no good reason) and I'd much rather be without Tarnasky than Boynton.

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12-22-2008, 10:34 AM
  #93
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I generally appreciate your posts, but there's no need to explain to me about fighting and timing and picking spots. It was chippy enough that two fights had previously almost started and Boynton was grabbed on the way to the box. You can't always just decide not to go when you have the lead, A. there's a code between fighters (argue that all you want, I really don't care, it's there and these guys usually play by it. It's about respect and Ian's more prone to recipricate the favor in the future if necessary.), and B. you don't know what was being said out there. While it wasn't an overly agressive game in terms of extra curricular after the whistle, sometimes those games don't have any fights, it was apparently enough where a guy who hadn't fought yet since he joined the team felt the need to go with a good fighter in Lappy. Imo, it's a stretch to say it wasn't necessary.

Impacting the game is what I'm talking about, when Nate's not pissed off, his impact is different. He's an alligator, and opportunist who aggressively attacks the opportunity when it's there, but is content in waiting for it.
great points. you're right on both counts. still, you will agree that smart fighters will demur (can i use that word in this context???) when the time's not right, yes? so we don't know exactly what was going on and the idea of reciprocation is valid but... you have to agree that they needed the fight more than we did, at least based on what we know. yes?

wrt nate - sure, but is he producing more at those times? i just don't know.

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12-22-2008, 10:36 AM
  #94
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But Laus, DeBoer knows a lot more about hockey than us message board guys do. I mean, if not for our defense being able to move the puck, Tarnasky wouldn't have had to fight at all.

Ok, I'll stop...
yeah, please do. it's not funny.

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12-22-2008, 10:39 AM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
It's not about "blooming" an dwhatnot with him, though, it's about the effort he puts in. He could go elsewhere and be a monster, but he needs to start putting more into his game. There's a clear difference in Weiss, Booth, Stillman, Dvo, and Pelt's game and Horton's...and it's not style, it's hustle.
I don't think I've ever seen Horton consistently hustle like Booth does in his career, yet has scored 30+ goals. All that I' am saying is, I'm willing to wait. I would like to see him stick around for another season to see if his chronic problem of half assing changes. I want to see if DeBoer can ruin that mentality.

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12-22-2008, 10:40 AM
  #96
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great points. you're right on both counts. still, you will agree that smart fighters will demur (can i use that word in this context???) when the time's not right, yes? so we don't know exactly what was going on and the idea of reciprocation is valid but... you have to agree that they needed the fight more than we did, at least based on what we know. yes?

wrt nate - sure, but is he producing more at those times? i just don't know.
They certainly would have benefitted most, but smart fighters also have the code in mind. Again, Nasty's picked his spot to the point that he just has his first fight in a Panthers uni, he must've felt the need to go with Lappy.

I don't know either, I just wish his effort/impact was more evened out. Everyone likely gives more when upset, but Horton seems to be Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hyde in terms of hustle, aggressiveness, and seemingly effort.

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12-22-2008, 10:44 AM
  #97
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I don't think I've ever seen Horton consistently hustle like Booth does in his career, yet has scored 30+ goals. All that I' am saying is, I'm willing to wait. I would like to see him stick around for another season to see if his chronic problem of half assing changes. I want to see if DeBoer can ruin that mentality.
I don't want him to hurt the team while we're waiting, either. We've already had that problem.

When I first became a manager and told my dad about a problem employee who was a cool person but had a lousy work ethic and wasn't sure what to do with him, dad told me that he wasn't likely to change. He was who he was at that point. I was hoping he would become a better employee, turns out dad was right. This proved to be true time and again. People and players do change, but often times, they are who they are.

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12-22-2008, 10:52 AM
  #98
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I missed this game yesterday.

I'm glad to see Mac's hard work rewarded with a goal.

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12-22-2008, 10:57 AM
  #99
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I don't want him to hurt the team while we're waiting, either. We've already had that problem.

When I first became a manager and told my dad about a problem employee who was a cool person but had a lousy work ethic and wasn't sure what to do with him, dad told me that he wasn't likely to change. He was who he was at that point. I was hoping he would become a better employee, turns out dad was right. This proved to be true time and again. People and players do change, but often times, they are who they are.
I just don't like the fact that we possibly may have to give up on a player that has loads of potential to be one of the best Right Wingers in the game. That's highly irritating especially having selected him third overall. Just disappointing I suppose.

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12-22-2008, 10:59 AM
  #100
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I don't want him to hurt the team while we're waiting, either. We've already had that problem.
I think the difference between Olli then and Nate now is Pete DeBoer.

IMO, Pete has the room moreso than JM ever did.

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