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Mother Of All Trades - Ott-edm-atl

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Old
12-23-2008, 08:28 AM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrepeterson View Post
To Ottawa
Ilya Kovalchuk
Sheldon Souray
Andrew Cogliano
Erik Cole
Atlanta's 3rd round pick 2009

To Edmonton
Jason Spezza
Jason Smith
Antoine Vermette

To Atlanta
Edmonton's 1st round pick 2009
Ottawa's 1st round pick 2009
Ottawa's 1st round pick 2010 (note: the draft after next season)
Ilya Zubov
Jesse Winchester

Senators forward lines post trade
Heatley Kelly Alfredsson
Kovalchuk Cogliano Foligno
Cole Fisher Donovan
Ruutu McAmmond Neil


Hey guys just wondering do you guys think that the Senators and the Oilers will make a trade after the christmas roster freeze and do you guys think the senators will make a trade with each other I would like to see a Vermette for Erik Cole swap or trade and what do you guys think the chances of that happening?

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Old
12-23-2008, 09:01 AM
  #52
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Edmonton gets completely ****ed here. Anyone who thinks otherwise is crazy...

Atlanta gets 3 first round picks (+Zubov/Winchester) for Kovalchuk and a 3rd.. if this were next season, that value might be reasonable but the Thrashers wouldn't make this particular deal this season, and they will be hoping for some sort of impact player coming back instead of just picks.

Ottawa gets a ridiculously sweet deal.
On the trade market, J. Smith has quite low value (at the deadline maybe a 2nd if someone needs to round out their D), Vermette's value is at an all time low... and there is no way Spezza alone is worth ALL OF THAT, especially with his new contract and current performance...

SPEZZA has 2 of the best linemates in the entire league, and SOURAY has the same amount of points in fewer games. The fact that the Sens are considering moving Spezza puts question marks on him. His salary is a consideration, being several million higher than Souray's. Souray has been a leader, a physical presence, a defensive dynamo, and near the top of the league for D-man scoring.

Souray + Cole for Spezza + Smith is much more realistic , and Edmonton retains one of the better young centers in the game and their 1st round pick which may turn out being higher than expected.

Realistically though, the Oilers would likely only be interested in moving Horcoff for Spezza due to salary constraints. Horcoff + Grebeshkov, or Horcoff + 1st... thems the breaks.

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Old
12-23-2008, 10:31 AM
  #53
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The Sens make out like bandits. Why is it when Sens fans make proposals they not only have to win the trade, the have to rip off the other team by a significant amount?

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Old
12-23-2008, 12:19 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by #57 View Post
Obviously a trade like this would never happen, but the value isnt WAY off.

Some people just wanted to be the first to make the facepalm joke and probably didnt even read the first post.

Lets see.

ATLANTA -
I like Atlanta's end of the deal. As of right now, they would hold the 3rd, 5th and 7th overall pick in the upcoming draft. Talk about speeding up the rebuild. Of course, they deal Kovalchuk away, but hey, that's probably one of the better offer for him you'll find. Also, they get Winchester, a young 4th liner with a good contract + Ilya Zubov, Ottawa's top prospect and a fine offensive player AND yet another 1st round pick next year.

I like this deal for Atlanta IF they're looking to deal Kovalchuk.

OTTAWA -
I'm guessing this deal is meant to shake things up for the Sens and indeed, it does. Spezza for Kovalchuk, fair. Vermette for Cole, fair. Smith and all those 1st round picks and prospects for Cogliano and Souray, somewhat fair.

The problem I see here is who are Alfredsson, Heatley and Kovalchuk going to play with? Cogliano, Kelly and Foligno? Souray would help out for the power play, but would they score more goals? And Kovalchuk still has no center to play with. Not sure how he would do with Cogs, although it can't be worse than Todd White.

EDMONTON -
Edmonton also needs a shake up and they deal a couple of mid-level players for an all-star. Cogliano is a great young player, but hey Jason Spezza is a 90+ points player. They get Jason Smith back, but I'm not sure they'd trade away Souray. Cole for Vermette is fair.

Not sure if this would work on the cap for Ottawa.

Overall, completely irrealistic, but not as bad as some people think.

And this would obviously never happen.
I'm guessing you haven't seen Souray play since he's been in Edmonton? He's been playing like an all star D-man in Edmonton and compliments Vishnovski pretty well. Both are logging big minutes, being very effective at their roles, and providing offense while defensively responsible. Trading away one of the fastest young prospect players in the NHL, a d-man playing like an all star, a struggling Cole, and a 1st that could be a lottery pick is a lot to give up for the "super star" Spezza who's so very effective at his role that Ottawa is potentially moving him. I can see that package for Kovalchuk, but not Spezza, our former captain (could be odd in the dressing room), and a struggling Vermette.

Spezza is too inconsistent for MacT's system. I don't think the OIlers would take back Smith, and Vermette has the same value as Cole. I think the only logical portion of the trade would be Cole for Vermette as Edmonton would be looking to trade Horcoff if Spezza was coming back.

So who's up for a Cole for Vermette swap eh?

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12-23-2008, 12:37 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmi Jenkins View Post
The Sens make out like bandits. Why is it when Sens fans make proposals they not only have to win the trade, the have to rip off the other team by a significant amount?
Like Sens fan are the only ones that do that.

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Old
12-23-2008, 12:45 PM
  #56
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guts all the teams, i dont see why edmonton would trade so much to get smith back and to get spezza......they would definitely rather kovie

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12-23-2008, 12:46 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Jimmi Jenkins View Post
The Sens make out like bandits. Why is it when Sens fans make proposals they not only have to win the trade, the have to rip off the other team by a significant amount?
it's a problem unique to Sens fans I've noticed.

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Old
12-23-2008, 01:42 PM
  #58
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it's a problem unique to Sens fans I've noticed.
I think I've seen at least 3 posts that were virtually the same word-for-word as his post about a couple of other teams recently... not that a similar post like that would be unusual, just that the wording seems so similar. Maybe Jimmi has this one handy on his clipboard.

----------------------------------------------------
As for this deal... if the point for Ottawa was to come away with virtually nothing in 2 years or blow past the cap, mission accomplished. If the point was to make Ottawa better somehow, it would help for a couple of months and then we'd be about in the same situation as we are now... with an awfully crummy future to look forward to.

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Old
12-23-2008, 03:04 PM
  #59
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While I don't agree with the initial proposal, I am starting to believe that if Lowe is unwilling to fire MacTavish perhaps he should make a few trades to acquire players that better fit with a MacTavish system.

Visnovsky to Ottawa for Volchenkov. - Ottawa acquires the puck moving defenseman they need, and Edmonton acquires a good shut down defender (which they so desperately need). Edmonton is deep with offensively minded "D" (some may say too deep), they can afford the loss.


And the 'big trade' is Hemsky, GagPner, and Grebeshkov to Florida for Bouwmeester and Horton. Before you throw a fit, consider this: Who is more of a MacTavish type player, Hemsky and Gagner or Horton. Bouwmeester gives the Oilers (at least on paper) a stellar defense.

And to finish the acquisitions, Lowe grabs Gratton.

Penner Horcoff Horton
Pouliot Cogliano Cole
Moreau Brodziak Reddox
MacIntyre Gratton Stortini

Bouwmeester Souray
Volchenkov Gilbert
Strudwick Smid

Now that is a MacTavish team...

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Old
12-23-2008, 04:26 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Phaedrus View Post
While I don't agree with the initial proposal, I am starting to believe that if Lowe is unwilling to fire MacTavish perhaps he should make a few trades to acquire players that better fit with a MacTavish system.

Visnovsky to Ottawa for Volchenkov. - Ottawa acquires the puck moving defenseman they need, and Edmonton acquires a good shut down defender (which they so desperately need). Edmonton is deep with offensively minded "D" (some may say too deep), they can afford the loss.


And the 'big trade' is Hemsky, GagPner, and Grebeshkov to Florida for Bouwmeester and Horton. Before you throw a fit, consider this: Who is more of a MacTavish type player, Hemsky and Gagner or Horton. Bouwmeester gives the Oilers (at least on paper) a stellar defense.

And to finish the acquisitions, Lowe grabs Gratton.

Penner Horcoff Horton
Pouliot Cogliano Cole
Moreau Brodziak Reddox
MacIntyre Gratton Stortini

Bouwmeester Souray
Volchenkov Gilbert
Strudwick Smid

Now that is a MacTavish team...
It might be a MacTavish team, but I don't think it's a winning team either. Honestly I believe MacT's time in Edmonton is limited. The Oilers owner is a hardcore businessman and despite having all his money and the old boys system eventually Katz will replace MacT for not turning things around. You don't get to be a nearly self made billionaire without knowing when to make the tough choices.

While the defense on paper looks amazing there's plenty of rumors about J-Bo not wanting to play in Edmonton. Whether it's true or not would mean Tambellini, Lowe, and Katz would all probably give this a lot more thought before even trying to get J-Bo out of Florida. Also hard to ignore the fact that Hemsky has one of the best contracts in the league when it comes to skills and potential vs salary while J-Bo is a UFA and could walk away for nothing.

Vishnovsky is too important right now to the Oilers to make good trade bait. He might get packed for a larger player, but I doubt you'd see a one for one trade involving him. He's one of our most reliable d-men, good skills, doesn't give the puck up very often (surprising considering his size), and at least was leading the team in blocked shots a few weeks back. It'd be hard to give up someone with such a rounded set of skills even if you're getting Volchenkov back in the trade. A strong shutdown d-man would definitely help, but we can't give up too many more vets with the all the youth in Edmonton.

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Old
12-24-2008, 12:06 AM
  #61
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The idea that Bouwmeester does not want to play in Edmonton stems from his refusal to be part of the Pronger deal. He simply did not want the pressure of being the heir to Pronger... time has past, Bouwmeester has a few more seasons under his belt, and I heard a rumor that he built a rather large house in the river valley. He may be all for playing in Edmonton now - and I am sure that if a trade were to happen, Tambellini/Lowe would discuss things with him.


I have to disagree with you on Visnovsky - he may be a good offensive player, but I cringe every time he is 'our' last line of defense. I would feel a lot better having Volchenkov defending 'our' end. And considering that 'we' have mainly offensive minded dmen, Visnovsky is expendable.

I believe the team I put together could be a very effective team - but don't get me wrong, if MacTavish is gone (and I am counting the minutes until that time) I would be happy to see players like Kovalchuk join the team.

Hemsky has a lot of potential, but until MacTavish is gone, I fear it may never be fully realized. As I qualified my initial proposal, this was all proposed under the banner of MacTavish remaining as coach of the Oil.

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Old
12-24-2008, 09:34 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Phaedrus View Post
The idea that Bouwmeester does not want to play in Edmonton stems from his refusal to be part of the Pronger deal. He simply did not want the pressure of being the heir to Pronger... time has past, Bouwmeester has a few more seasons under his belt, and I heard a rumor that he built a rather large house in the river valley. He may be all for playing in Edmonton now - and I am sure that if a trade were to happen, Tambellini/Lowe would discuss things with him.


I have to disagree with you on Visnovsky - he may be a good offensive player, but I cringe every time he is 'our' last line of defense. I would feel a lot better having Volchenkov defending 'our' end. And considering that 'we' have mainly offensive minded dmen, Visnovsky is expendable.

I believe the team I put together could be a very effective team - but don't get me wrong, if MacTavish is gone (and I am counting the minutes until that time) I would be happy to see players like Kovalchuk join the team.

Hemsky has a lot of potential, but until MacTavish is gone, I fear it may never be fully realized. As I qualified my initial proposal, this was all proposed under the banner of MacTavish remaining as coach of the Oil.
J-Bo lives in the Edmonton area during the summer so any house construction would have to be taken with a grain of salt. He could just be upgrading his summer home. I think the OIlers management might be a little shy about the hometown kid due to past problems. Look at Lupul recently and the organizations hesitation to draft people from the Edmonton area. We've got Pisani lol.

The team you put together would be middle of the road. Edmonton would be scrambling to hold people off the last 2-3 spots for the post season and would havea very hard time advancing into the finals. There's just too much uncertainty around Horcoff finding chemistry with Horton, Pouliot hasn't shown me anything to prove he is top 6 talent, and Vish at least a couple weeks ago was our shot blocking leader. It would definitely hurt our defence to lose our shot blocking leader in addition to one of our most mobile puck moving d-men.

I think Vish might be moved if one of the up and coming d-men in the systemn makes a leap, but really we're talking about Petry coming into camp and dominating. Chorney might be a replacement for Vish, but I think he won't be expendable to us for at least another year or two.

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12-24-2008, 09:58 AM
  #63
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Isn't Volchenkov the best shot blocker in the league? Plus he plays with a certain aggressiveness that many of 'our' defenders lack. He is precisely what this team is lacking. And I believe that if Tambellini/Lowe offered Vis, Ottawa just might bite.

The team as it stands is not even contending for the last 2-3 playoff spots, so I will assume 'my team' as the better of the two (current team to the one I proposed). My entire premise was more about providing MacTavish with the kind of team he is capable of coaching rather than to suggest a specific team. Substitute Horton for whomever...

Your opinion of Bouwmeester is based - as I pointed out - on his feelings at the time of the Pronger trade. Nothing as of late seems to suggest he still feels the same way. You say he put an addition on his house, I heard he had a rather large house built. Either way, he is setting roots in Edmonton.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

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Old
12-24-2008, 11:21 AM
  #64
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Trade of this size would never happen

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Old
12-24-2008, 11:47 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Phaedrus View Post
Isn't Volchenkov the best shot blocker in the league? Plus he plays with a certain aggressiveness that many of 'our' defenders lack. He is precisely what this team is lacking. And I believe that if Tambellini/Lowe offered Vis, Ottawa just might bite.

The team as it stands is not even contending for the last 2-3 playoff spots, so I will assume 'my team' as the better of the two (current team to the one I proposed). My entire premise was more about providing MacTavish with the kind of team he is capable of coaching rather than to suggest a specific team. Substitute Horton for whomever...

Your opinion of Bouwmeester is based - as I pointed out - on his feelings at the time of the Pronger trade. Nothing as of late seems to suggest he still feels the same way. You say he put an addition on his house, I heard he had a rather large house built. Either way, he is setting roots in Edmonton.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
I don't know if Volchenkov is the best shot blocker in the league or not, but Vish has found a groove here and there's nothing saying Volchenkov would. It coulf be a bad trade even though we got the younger player. There's still a lot of risk. There's also nothing to say that all Ottawa would want would be Vish to replace Volchenkov. It might be Vish plus to secure the desired asset.

Would the team still look as good on paper if J-Bo did decide to walk? Would it still be worth giving up Gagner, Hemsky, and Grebs for Horton and a potential rental player? Would being bounced out of the playoffs in the first or second round really be better than using our 1st pick to select a high draft choice again? Right now it's looking like our pick could be a lottery pick and I don't want to risk trading that pick when it could easily bite us in the butt and it's likely that to obtain Volchenkov Ottawa might want a package more along the lines of Gilbert plus our 1st. Personally I'd rather tool the team around a formula that winning teams use rather than what MacT could work best with.

Your opinion of J-Bo-as I pointed out-is based on his building of a new home in his city of choice for summer residence. There hasn't been anything said or done publicly to suggest J-Bo has changed his mind about playing here either. I never said he put an addition on I said he upgraded his house. It doesn't matter if he built a new house or not...this is his summer residence. Is it THAT hard to believe a millionaire who lives here during the summer, and is primed to get a sweetheart contract with his next signing, might take advantage of the situation to upgrade his house?

We will have to agree to disagree. I'd rather try to build a team with a long cup window with a strong supporting cast even if it has to be built through the draft than more of the same old first/second round exits. If it has to be done through the draft then yes trade off Hemsky and any other assets that could return high picks and great prospects. I just don't believe your trades would make Edmonton a better team in the future...just for this post season.

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12-24-2008, 11:53 AM
  #66
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I think it'll be very tough to get edmonton's first round pick this year, the team has shown a lot of promise, they could with some hard work and luck finish bottom 3 and get a real shot at tavares or hedman.

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12-24-2008, 02:49 PM
  #67
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I don't know if Volchenkov is the best shot blocker in the league or not, but Vish has found a groove here and there's nothing saying Volchenkov would. It coulf be a bad trade even though we got the younger player. There's still a lot of risk. There's also nothing to say that all Ottawa would want would be Vish to replace Volchenkov. It might be Vish plus to secure the desired asset.

Would the team still look as good on paper if J-Bo did decide to walk? Would it still be worth giving up Gagner, Hemsky, and Grebs for Horton and a potential rental player? Would being bounced out of the playoffs in the first or second round really be better than using our 1st pick to select a high draft choice again? Right now it's looking like our pick could be a lottery pick and I don't want to risk trading that pick when it could easily bite us in the butt and it's likely that to obtain Volchenkov Ottawa might want a package more along the lines of Gilbert plus our 1st. Personally I'd rather tool the team around a formula that winning teams use rather than what MacT could work best with.

Your opinion of J-Bo-as I pointed out-is based on his building of a new home in his city of choice for summer residence. There hasn't been anything said or done publicly to suggest J-Bo has changed his mind about playing here either. I never said he put an addition on I said he upgraded his house. It doesn't matter if he built a new house or not...this is his summer residence. Is it THAT hard to believe a millionaire who lives here during the summer, and is primed to get a sweetheart contract with his next signing, might take advantage of the situation to upgrade his house?

We will have to agree to disagree. I'd rather try to build a team with a long cup window with a strong supporting cast even if it has to be built through the draft than more of the same old first/second round exits. If it has to be done through the draft then yes trade off Hemsky and any other assets that could return high picks and great prospects. I just don't believe your trades would make Edmonton a better team in the future...just for this post season.
It seems that we are speaking apples and oranges, as I never mentioned the draft. If the suggestion is now that 'we' stay the course and hope for a top three pick, well that is neither here nor there in terms of what I thought we were discussing. That being said, I think we (as fans) will see some significant changes this season before we see the Oilers completely tank the season... I doubt Katz (based on his comments) will allow such a thing to happen. I do agree however that tanking and achieving a high draft pick is preferable to barely making the playoffs and picking somewhere around the middle of the pack.

The Oilers either need to acquire talent through the draft or acquire it via trade/free agency. They need to decide what type of team they are going to be (Chicago vs. the Rangers).

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12-24-2008, 03:01 PM
  #68
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I think it'll be very tough to get edmonton's first round pick this year, the team has shown a lot of promise, they could with some hard work and luck finish bottom 3 and get a real shot at tavares or hedman.
It's going to be hard to be worse than NYI, TBL, STL this year.

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12-24-2008, 03:04 PM
  #69
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I don't think we make like bandits and run.
Breakdown is:
Spezza for Kovalchuk
Vermette for Cole
2 (OTT) 1st round picks, Jason Smith, Zubov, and Winchester for Cogliano, Souray and ATL 3rd and EDM 1st
Err you missed a first rounder there!

(cancelling out the first rounders of OTT + EDM)
So Jason Smith, Zubov, Winchester, OTT 1st for Souray, Cogliano, ATL 3rd.

See how lopsided it is? Also, by upgrading the Sens the two 1st rounders DROP in value.

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12-24-2008, 03:21 PM
  #70
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I don't think we make like bandits and run.
Breakdown is:
Spezza for Kovalchuk
Vermette for Cole
2 1st round picks, Jason Smith, Zubov, and Winchester for Cogliano, Souray and 3rd.
yeah ok,

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12-24-2008, 03:29 PM
  #71
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EDM gets destroyed, ATL gets nothing but picks back for Kovalchuk, Ottawa makes off with everything worth having in the deal, plus Atlanta's 3rd and Erik Cole for good measure.

This is simply terrible.

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12-24-2008, 04:10 PM
  #72
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It seems that we are speaking apples and oranges, as I never mentioned the draft. If the suggestion is now that 'we' stay the course and hope for a top three pick, well that is neither here nor there in terms of what I thought we were discussing. That being said, I think we (as fans) will see some significant changes this season before we see the Oilers completely tank the season... I doubt Katz (based on his comments) will allow such a thing to happen. I do agree however that tanking and achieving a high draft pick is preferable to barely making the playoffs and picking somewhere around the middle of the pack.

The Oilers either need to acquire talent through the draft or acquire it via trade/free agency. They need to decide what type of team they are going to be (Chicago vs. the Rangers).
I think we agree that something needs to be shaken up, but disagree on which pieces lol. I mentioned the draft pick to highlight why I'd rather risk getting another high draft pick this year than just miss or be a consistent early out playoff team.

What I'm arguing against is losing Vish this year. From all reports he likes the city and is still near the elite level he once held. We all know there aren't a lot of players rushing to the Oilers in the offseason so why trade away someone who's very good at their job and likes it here?

This team isn't ready to compete for a cup and could use another year of seasoning and a potentially high draft pick. Shoring up to get back to making the playoffs consistently to be knocked out early would set the team back a few years and eventually they'd have to rebuild again anyways. Basically what I see in your team is a Western version of what the Leaf's were before Fletcher, but with a stronger defense (if J-Bo stays) and a slightly more balanced top 6. A good looking team on paper, but just can't make anything great happen. Not quite enough talent on the front end to really compete for a cup.

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12-24-2008, 05:16 PM
  #73
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As bad as this is, Atlanta ended up trading Hossa for less than that and I bet they'll do the same with Kovalchuk.

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12-25-2008, 08:26 AM
  #74
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I don't see Atlanta trading Kovy for just picks.

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12-25-2008, 08:27 AM
  #75
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As bad as this is, Atlanta ended up trading Hossa for less than that and I bet they'll do the same with Kovalchuk.
If Atlanta made this trade I actually think it would be considered worse than what they got for Hossa

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