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Seven Reasons Why The Leafs Will Take The East

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Old
03-05-2004, 11:23 AM
  #26
BlueAndWhite
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
The Leafs could come out of the East, but as usual a lot will depend upon match-ups.

The Leafs still do not match-up well against the Flyers.

Odd how it works but as a general rule:

Leafs will beat Sens
Sens will beat Flyers
Flyers will beat Leafs

the seedings will become very important.
I know your extremely confident about your Flyers being able to defeat the Leafs but I don't understand this "general rule".

The Flyers beat the Leafs ONCE in the post-season in the past five years and suddenely they have playoff dominance over the Leafs ?

In fact, in the past five years, the Leafs and Flyers have met twice and the score is tied 1-1. Where does this dominance come from ?

I think looking at previous head to head matchups is a tad over-rated. The Leafs have beat the Senators three times in the past five years (that COULD qualify as playoff dominance) and I don't think it's a big deal when it comes to a Sens vs. Leafs matchup.

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03-05-2004, 11:31 AM
  #27
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It's funny how people assume that history means anything.

People assume that regular season head-to-head matchups are 100% predictors of what will happen in the playoffs. That theory has been blown to shreds on many occaisions.

Then again, other people think that because the Leafs beat the Senators three years in a row, it's a given that they would win the fourth series. Look at the rosters of the team, and how different they are, and tell me why anyone should believe this.

And of course, the Flyers fans who combine both these theories and take it as a given that they would beat the Leafs in the playoffs this year or that the Senators would take out the Flyers.

The Flyers/Leafs series was widely regarded as one of the toughest and best series in recent memory. It went to 7 games, with 3 being decided in overtime. In fact, with the amount of overtime played, it came out to something like 9 full games of hockey. But alas, people only remember the score in Game 7 and have the misconception that the Flyers walked all over us and swept us in four.

Every year is a whole new bag of tricks, and anything can happen. Whereas we were banged up heading into the playoffs last year, this year it seems the tables have turned. Nobody knows what will happen when any 2 teams match up. That is the only thing we can be assured of.

If past history was all you needed to predict the playoffs, then why are the Bruins suddenly touted as legit contenders? Why would they bother picking up Gonchar and Nylander? We all know the Bruins don't do well in the playoffs and therefore nobody should be concerened about them, and in fact, every other team in the East would love to play them. [/end sarcasm]. Get a grip.

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03-05-2004, 11:34 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Egil
I have Serious questions on whether the Leafs D will be able to handle the physical play that will take place in the playoffs. Their top 4 gives up over 20lbs a MAN to the Sens top 4 (and somewhere inbetween to the Flyers or Devils). I seriously question how much succes they will have on the PK (letting Eddie see shots) and against the cycle (which can wear them down).

And if Eddies back goes, they are also completely done.
Of course having Chara weighing in at a whopping 260 lbs doesn't skew the average...

With Chara the Senators Top Four averages 223.5 lbs.
The Leafs top four averages 204.25 lbs.

Chara is more than 45 lbs heavier than the next Ottawa defenseman.

You're placing way too much importance on weight and it doesn't necessarily equate to physical ability, stamina and endurance. If weight was such a big factor - the Leafs could move Berg into the top four and their average weight goes up nearly 8 lbs a man. Does that make them better defensively ? I think not.

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03-05-2004, 11:41 AM
  #29
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Physical + Old = Injuries

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Old
03-05-2004, 11:52 AM
  #30
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Great analysis Trottier, I concur almost completely.

Aside from Belfour's back, which could potentially be the Leafs achilles heal. I think the Leafs may be vunerable in terms of their discipline, they play a punishing brand of hockey (one that lends itself to penalties) and they have a number of hotheads on their roster. If they play undisicplined hockey against a team like the Senators, they'll get murdered.

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03-05-2004, 11:53 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueAndWhite
Of course having Chara weighing in at a whopping 260 lbs doesn't skew the average...

With Chara the Senators Top Four averages 223.5 lbs.
The Leafs top four averages 204.25 lbs.

Chara is more than 45 lbs heavier than the next Ottawa defenseman.

You're placing way too much importance on weight and it doesn't necessarily equate to physical ability, stamina and endurance. If weight was such a big factor - the Leafs could move Berg into the top four and their average weight goes up nearly 8 lbs a man. Does that make them better defensively ? I think not.
Agreed here... an argument like that is weakened by skewed statistics.

Also when Detroit won the cup in 2002 our Top-6 D-men averaged less than 200 lbs (i.e. SMALL, SMALL, SMALL), and the number is even lower when you drop the heaviest and lightest D-man. (although the Eastern forwards are more physical).


Last edited by Cruiser008: 03-05-2004 at 12:21 PM.
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03-05-2004, 11:59 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueAndWhite
Of course having Chara weighing in at a whopping 260 lbs doesn't skew the average...

With Chara the Senators Top Four averages 223.5 lbs.
The Leafs top four averages 204.25 lbs.

Chara is more than 45 lbs heavier than the next Ottawa defenseman.

You're placing way too much importance on weight and it doesn't necessarily equate to physical ability, stamina and endurance. If weight was such a big factor - the Leafs could move Berg into the top four and their average weight goes up nearly 8 lbs a man. Does that make them better defensively ? I think not.
Ottawa's Top 4:

Chara 261
Redden 212
Rachunek 212
Phillips 216

vs

Toronto

McCabe 220
Klee 214
Kaberle 198
Leetch 185

That, even ignoring Chara, is a 10 or so lb a player difference. And McCabe is your BIGGEST defender, Ottawa has 3 guys bigger than him (Chara, Volchenkov, Simpson). The Leafs defense is SMALL, SMALL, SMALL. This IS A PROBLEM (except maybe in Leaf La-La land). Why could Ottawa dominate Philly's forwards last year while the Leafs had trouble? SIZE SIZE SIZE. The Leafs have (I do believe) the smallest defense of ANY team that will make the playoffs. But I guess that isn't a problem., cause we all know their is NO hitting in the playoffs....

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03-05-2004, 12:07 PM
  #33
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Players seem to be thinking of Health as a weakness for the Leafs. Fair enough, but isn't it a weakness for EVERY team?? The Leafs have their whole roster healthy right now, except for Belfour who is almost 100% and Belak who is an idiot anyways.

I'm not going to make any predictions until the seedings are set, but if the Leafs can get the Isles or Habs in the first round, and avoid going to Seven games in the series, they'll be in a better position than the other top teams who'll be comming off of a dog fight.

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Old
03-05-2004, 12:09 PM
  #34
BlueAndWhite
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Egil
Ottawa's Top 4:

Chara 261
Redden 212
Rachunek 212
Phillips 216

vs

Toronto

McCabe 220
Klee 214
Kaberle 198
Leetch 185

That, even ignoring Chara, is a 10 or so lb a player difference. And McCabe is your BIGGEST defender, Ottawa has 3 guys bigger than him (Chara, Volchenkov, Simpson). The Leafs defense is SMALL, SMALL, SMALL. This IS A PROBLEM (except maybe in Leaf La-La land). Why could Ottawa dominate Philly's forwards last year while the Leafs had trouble? SIZE SIZE SIZE. The Leafs have (I do believe) the smallest defense of ANY team that will make the playoffs. But I guess that isn't a problem., cause we all know their is NO hitting in the playoffs....
I'm curious where you're getting your stats from because nhl.com has Redden at 208 and hockeydb.com has Redden at 205 and the official Senators website has him at 208 as well. You've added lbs to Chara, Phillips and Rachuenk as well.

You were talking about top four and suddenely you throw in names like Volcheknov and Simpson ? Simpson may not even be in your top six come playoff time.

Excluding Chara the Sens defense has ten lbs over the Leafs ? Are you sure about that ?

Even if you remove Chara and add the next heaviest Ottawa d-man in Simpson (who like I noted will most likely be in the pressbox) and I go with the whole "weight is crucial" issue and add Berg to our top four, the Sens have less than 3 more lbs per man then the Leafs.

You're harping on weight WAAAY too much and you're skewing the stats...

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Old
03-05-2004, 12:11 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier
Putting aside the usual disclaimers (e.g., major injuries; Mats Sundin getting suspended for a month for hurling his stick into the crowd :p , etc.),

4 - They are as physical a team as there is in the NHL. Not likely to be the sole "differencemaker" in winning a seven-game series, but the Leafs will NEVER back down from any team and they are capable of wearing a few teams down. And, the guessing here is that they will channel their aggresiveness properly this time around (to their advantage), having learned from some prior mistakes.

5 - Veteran experience. Roberts, Nolan, Sundin, Mogilny, Leetch, Belfour, etc. Enough said. These guys seem to still be very hungry at the later stages of their careers. Importantly, they have experienced losing in the playoffs together, several times over. That can be an advantage. (If you need an explanation, don't bother.) Plus Mogilny is fresh, having missed a lot of time. That will benefit him once he hits his stride again. A sprinkling of huge, energetic youth (Antropov, Ponikarovsky) in supporting roles compliments the core well. And, perhaps as much as any team in the league the players on the Leafs know their individual roles.

Just one opinion.
imo, you points out some problems of the leafs team in those points. You cannot put aside injuries when you're talking about:
4. A team that is as physical.
5. Veteran experience... which also mean OLD.

This team wont get out of 2nd round, maybe even 1st round without injuries. And i'm not even talking about Belfour back...

I agree with your point but i think you guys are overrating those points compare to injuries which could put them out of the picture faster than any other team in the east.

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03-05-2004, 12:14 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Egil
That, even ignoring Chara, is a 10 or so lb a player difference. And McCabe is your BIGGEST defender, Ottawa has 3 guys bigger than him (Chara, Volchenkov, Simpson). The Leafs defense is SMALL, SMALL, SMALL.
Where are you getting your info? Just curious.

1. McCabe is not the Leaf's biggest defenseman, Belak is bigger (235lbs).
2. According to nhlpa.com their weights are....

McCabe - 225
Volchenkov - 225
Simpson - 215

How many d-men do the Sens have that are bigger than McCabe again?

3. Who cares? Does it really make any difference if the Sens 5/6 defensemen weigh more than Brian McCabe? Is that going to have any effect to any situation based in reality?

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Old
03-05-2004, 12:25 PM
  #37
BlueAndWhite
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Quote:
Originally Posted by habfan4
Great analysis Trottier, I concur almost completely.

Aside from Belfour's back, which could potentially be the Leafs achilles heal. I think the Leafs may be vunerable in terms of their discipline, they play a punishing brand of hockey (one that lends itself to penalties) and they have a number of hotheads on their roster. If they play undisicplined hockey against a team like the Senators, they'll get murdered.
I think this is a good point. The Leafs can lack discipline from time and time (althought not as badly as it was in the past when Corson,Green and Tucker were living la vida loca) and you don't want to give up too many powerplays in the playoffs.

Although I imagine that more calls will be "ignored" in the post-season, this is something that does concern me as a Leaf fan.

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03-05-2004, 12:35 PM
  #38
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Thought I'd chime in on the many astute comments that followed my original post.

Re-stating: I agree 100% that injuries to this older roster is the X factor. (Which is why I mentioned injuries at the start and finish of my post! ) Indeed, if Belfour is not healthy, the Leafs are sunk. If he is healthy, I like their chances.

It was mentioned at least once that experience is not important come playoff time (Tampa Bay). I respectfully disagree, bigtime and history backs up my opinion.

Agree with the poster who suggested that past records mean little. I tend to think fans and media put more emphasis on that then so players. The Leafs are capable of taking Philly in a 7 game series, IMO, as are the Sens capable of taking the Leafs and the Flyers same with the Sens. Of course, they each have to go out and do it.

In no way was this a shot at the other teams in the conference or their respective chances. Was intended moreso to crystalize the case for Toronto this spring.

I personally would not want to be the team that gets Montreal in Round One. The upsets often happen early, and the combination of a superb goalie, a very tight defensive system, a newly-acquired sniper who is due to re-find his game (and thus enhance their offense), and the mystique of Les Habitan' :p make them ripe to upset a higher seed.

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03-05-2004, 12:51 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier
I personally would not want to be the team that gets Montreal in Round One. The upsets often happen early, and the combination of a superb goalie, a very tight defensive system, a newly-acquired sniper who is due to re-find his game (and thus enhance their offense), and the mystique of Les Habitan' :p make them ripe to upset a higher seed.
Gotta agree there, except the only difference being, two years ago, no one, and i mean NO ONE saw the habs beating the Bruins. To be quite honest, that series was won in large part because Boston thought they had it won from game 1. Not to mention all the upsets from last year's playoffs.

This year teams are definately going to wisen up, and the habs are going to most likely have to play above their heads to get out of round 1... but that's what they've been doing this year, so it definately could happen

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03-05-2004, 12:55 PM
  #40
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It's a matter of knowing another team's scheme. Hitchcock knows Pat Quinn's plan like the back of his hand and can coach very well against it. That is the exact reason we (Flyers) have ROCKED your coveted Ed Belfour on numerous occasions in the last couple years. The only reason we went to seven games with you is becaus eof our mediocre goaltending last season, we outplayed you in 6 out of the seven games. The only worry I have about playing the Leafs is that they will take some of our players out for the following round. I don't think Leetch will make a difference in defensive zone coverage, thus the Leafs' problem wasn't addressed.

This is DEPTH:

Gagné Zhamnov Amonte
Leclair Handzus Recchi
Radivojevic Roenick Kapanen
Brashear Primeau Somik

Markov Desjardins
Johnsson Timander
Ragnarrson Pitkanen

Burke
Esche

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03-05-2004, 01:04 PM
  #41
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Quote:
The Flyers beat the Leafs ONCE in the post-season in the past five years and suddenely they have playoff dominance over the Leafs ? In fact, in the past five years, the Leafs and Flyers have met twice and the score is tied 1-1. Where does this dominance come from ?
Last year had a great series between the Leafs and Flyers. However, by the end of that series, it was obvious what killed Toronto's run. Injuries and the fact that the defense left Belfour in a shooting gallery in most of the games. The reason that Flyer fans and other fans from around the league believe that the Flyers dominate the Leafs is because of the playoffs and the 3 convicing wins they have over the Leafs. The only thing different about the Leafs this year is Eddie's back is messed up, Joe & Gary are a year older than last year and Brian Leetch is on their blueline. That's it. I'm sorry, but no Flyer fan is going to buy that the Leafs are the team to beat in the East. Also, any other fan that pays attention to the East knows this as well.


Quote:
But alas, people only remember the score in Game 7 and have the misconception that the Flyers walked all over us and swept us in four.
People or fans aren't that naive. Check who won all 3 games this year between the Flyers and Leafs.

Flyer goals for all 3 games: 15
Leaf goals for all 3 games: 2

So, Brian Leetch is hardly going to make me think that the Leafs are suddenly unstoppable. They had the same lineup back in November and they got embarrassed. Now add that Eddie's back is questionable, that just makes the claim that they are the "team" look even more absurd.


Every team has their question marks except TB.

Ottawa --- Will the Sens have the toughness and solid goaltending from Lalime?

Philadelphia --- Will Esche handle the pressure well? If he doesn't, can Burke take over? Will the top 2 centers be back to 100%?

New Jersey --- Will Stevens return? That's it for them. Maybe scoring is an issue but they usually turn it on come playoff time.

Boston --- I just don't see Gonchar & Nylander being the answer for them. Murray and Thornton are way off the pace they were at last year. Who else has been scoring for them? Again, goalie questions with the rookie and Felix.

Montreal --- is a sleeper team. Doesn't boast the big names on their roster but they win games. Theodore is proving to be a great goalie in the East.

The Isles --- Good players, good defense, good goalie, it all depends on the effort they give.

Tampa Bay is the only team who has everything going for them.
No injuries, no questions in goal and no problems scoring. Only 15 man games lost to injury, that's unreal. Having Bulin & Grahame in net has been great for them. Either one can handle the starting position. St. Louis is a candidate for the Hart trophy and Lecalvier is turning it on at the right time. They have nothing to lose. They play strong no matter who they face.
I'd hate to be the one facing them in the first round.

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03-05-2004, 01:15 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swflyers8
The reason that Flyer fans and other fans from around the league believe that the Flyers dominate the Leafs is because of the playoffs and the 3 convicing wins they have over the Leafs. The only thing different about the Leafs this year is Eddie's back is messed up, Joe & Gary are a year older than last year and Brian Leetch is on their blueline. That's it. I'm sorry, but no Flyer fan is going to buy that the Leafs are the team to beat in the East. Also, any other fan that pays attention to the East knows this as well.
By any chance do you recall Toronto record in the regular season against Philadelphia last year ? Do you recall a 6-0 thrasing by the same Leafs ?

Did that have any effect of that outcome in the post-season ?
The Sens until this year were dominant against the Leafs in the regular season but lost three straight series.

There is nearly NO relationship between regular season play and post-season play. Therefore, just because team A loses to team B in the regular season, doesn't mean they will automatically lose to team B in the post-season as well, there is no inverse relationship either.

The only thing different about the Leafs this year is Leetch eh ? As well, Joe Nieuwendyk is a year older too boot. That last statment shows just how much you know about the Leafs and their roster. Nieuwendyk was a DEVIL last year. He was signed in the off-season as a UFA. Nothing different eh ? Ken Klee is new. Ponikarovsky is new. Bryan McCabe is playing like McCabe of old. Karel Pilar is new. Aki Berg and Robert Reichel are having fantastic seasons (which hopefully will carry on into the playoffs).

You're right, there is nothing different about this team. We still have Jonas Hoglund on our first line. Glen Wesley, Robert Svehla, Phil Housely, Jyrki Lumme still play defense for us.


Last edited by BlueAndWhite: 03-05-2004 at 01:19 PM.
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03-05-2004, 01:18 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swflyers8
Last year had a great series between the Leafs and Flyers. However, by the end of that series, it was obvious what killed Toronto's run. Injuries and the fact that the defense left Belfour in a shooting gallery in most of the games. The reason that Flyer fans and other fans from around the league believe that the Flyers dominate the Leafs is because of the playoffs and the 3 convicing wins they have over the Leafs. The only thing different about the Leafs this year is Eddie's back is messed up, Joe & Gary are a year older than last year and Brian Leetch is on their blueline. That's it. I'm sorry, but no Flyer fan is going to buy that the Leafs are the team to beat in the East. Also, any other fan that pays attention to the East knows this as well.




People or fans aren't that naive. Check who won all 3 games this year between the Flyers and Leafs.

Flyer goals for all 3 games: 15
Leaf goals for all 3 games: 2

So, Brian Leetch is hardly going to make me think that the Leafs are suddenly unstoppable. They had the same lineup back in November and they got embarrassed. Now add that Eddie's back is questionable, that just makes the claim that they are the "team" look even more absurd.
For starters, there is a lot different from this year and last year.

Gary Roberts was coming off of double shoulder surgery and a pulled groin. Look at the way he is playing this year, he is back to his old self. Joe Nieuwendyk was not with the Leafs last year. Owen Nolan was at about 60%. Ken Klee and Brian Leetch are on our defence this year. Jyrki Lumme and Jonas Hoglund are gone. The Corson/Tucker/Green clique is no more. No players are bailing on our club this spring. Darcy Tucker has totally changed his game and has 20 goals. Mats Sundin is not wearing a full-face shield with a mouth the size of a watermelon. No matter how bad things get, Phil Housley will not be thrown on the ice. Nik Antropov's foot is not broken. Alexei Ponikarovsky and Matt Stajan provide a youthful exuberance we didn't have last year.

The question marks hanging over Eddie's health are no different than the question marks hanging over Roenick and Primeau right now, who were two HUGE components of the series last year that you seem to hang your hat on.

All that being said, I'm not saying the Leafs will beat the Flyers or anyone else. All I am saying is that so much changes that it is ridiculous to take it as a matter of fact that Team A will beat Team B based on last year, or even based on regular season meetings. As I said in my first post, go look at what the regular season has meant in our series with the Sens, for example.


Damn you, Blue and White, we think alike. You hit the trigger a bit quicker though. hehe

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03-05-2004, 01:20 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueBlood17

Damn you, Blue and White, we think alike. You hit the trigger a bit quicker though. hehe
Great minds my friend...great minds...

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03-05-2004, 01:29 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueAndWhite
By any chance do you recall Toronto record in the regular season against Philadelphia last year ?
Yes, they played 4 games each team winning two.
The Flyers are 11 - 6 - 1 over the least 3 years against the Leafs.

No one said that the Flyers are garunteed to beat the Leafs. "Rule of thumb" is a very generic term.
But the Flyers have done rather well against the Leafs lately and out of the top teams in the East, the Leafs are the one I least fear because we seem to match up well. Not that I think the Leafs are the worst of the top teams, cause I don't. I just think recent history has *some* level of meaning. To dismiss it as 100% meaningless is absurd. As would saying it's incredibly meaningfull, because it isn't. But it does have some meaning.

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03-05-2004, 01:33 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Liquidrage
To dismiss it as 100% meaningless is absurd. As would saying it's incredibly meaningfull, because it isn't. But it does have some meaning.
I was talking about regular season records and they have shown (historically) to be irrelevant and I did say "nearly".

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03-05-2004, 03:00 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swflyers8



Every team has their question marks except TB.
You are fooled if you think Tampa has no question marks they are a young, inexperienced club with not that great of a defense. They remind me of the sens a few years ago who were regular season titans but when the playoffs rolled around their stars were neutralized. I see that with Tampa with someone covering St.louis and Lecavalier at all times.

.
Quote:
Ottawa --- Will the Sens have the toughness and solid goaltending from Lalime?
I don't think any sen fan is worried about toughness they proved their 'grit' last season but however people are weary about the goaltending situations.

This is how I rank the eastern teams from the least weaknesses to most.

1. Ottawa
2. Philly/Toronto
3. NJ
4. Tampa
5. Boston
6. Montreal
7. Isles

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03-05-2004, 03:10 PM
  #48
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Quote:
they are a young, inexperienced club with not that great of a defense
Sure, they have been in the playoffs once as a team. However, Dave Anderychuk has been around, Sydor has won a Cup, Fedotenko played with the Flyers, Modin w/ the Leafs. I think they do have experience on that team. Bulin has been around a while. They aren't as inexperienced as people think.

Quote:
I see that with Tampa with someone covering St.louis and Lecavalier at all times.
Then I see guys like Modin and Fedotenko stepping up on the scoring front along w/ their defense as well.

Quote:
I don't think any sen fan
That's Sens fans, not the rest of us.

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Old
03-05-2004, 03:27 PM
  #49
south-sentral
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swflyers8

That's Sens fans, not the rest of us.
Ironic that a flyers fans is questioning our toughness...

As for Tampa, i see them going to the second round but wont be able to win against teams like Ottawa or NJ.

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Old
03-05-2004, 03:29 PM
  #50
Egil
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loveshack2
Where are you getting your info? Just curious.
ESPN.com

Using the tsn.ca numbers (which I did somewhere else), their is a similar gap (though everyone is lighter).

Quote:
Originally Posted by loveshack2
1. McCabe is not the Leaf's biggest defenseman, Belak is bigger (235lbs).
Belak will not play Defense for the Leafs, they would call someone else up before playing Belak. At this point, Belak is a forward, and a forward alone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by loveshack2
2. According to nhlpa.com their weights are....

McCabe - 225
Volchenkov - 225
Simpson - 215
According to tsn.ca, the weights are:

McCabe - 204
Volchenkov - 227
Simpson - 227

According to ESPN.com, the weights are:
McCabe - 220
Volchenkov - 237
Simpson - 227

According to NHL.com, the weights are:

McCabe - 220
Volchenkov - 227
Simpson - 227

According to USA today, the weights are:

McCabe - 220
Volchenkov - 227
Simpson - 227

Quote:
Originally Posted by loveshack2
How many d-men do the Sens have that are bigger than McCabe again?
THREE, as I said, IN PASSING. It wasn't my MAIN POINT, holy smokes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by loveshack2
3. Who cares? Does it really make any difference if the Sens 5/6 defensemen weigh more than Brian McCabe? Is that going to have any effect to any situation based in reality?
I agree. But, again, that isn't my main point. My main point is that Ottawa's Defense (specifically the top 4, and even the top 4 without Chara) is SIGNIFICANTLY bigger than the Leafs top 4. And, that ANY OTHER playoff teams top 4 is SIGNIFICANTLY bigger than the Leafs top 4. THAT was my point. The fact that Ottawa has 3 defenders bigger than the Leafs biggest simply helps hammer in the Leafs top 4 is small argument.

Now, you want to respond to MY POINT, or dance around the issue like the TO media?

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