HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > National Hockey League Talk
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
National Hockey League Talk Discuss NHL players, teams, games, and the Stanley Cup Playoffs.

The Stigma of being David Aebischer...

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
03-05-2004, 02:12 PM
  #26
fcbarcelona
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,451
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yes Im Peter Ing
Jerichoholic,

Your point is sound. However, if you want my opinion, Abi's problem is not with a home-town conspiracy. His problem, rather, is the fact that he's filling the boots of possibly, the greatest goalkeeper to ever live. For further information on this problem, consult Steve Young.
Being the greatest goalie, however, isn't necessary to win the Stanley Cup. I believe many people realize this. Therefore, Aebi is only being measured against what many believe it necessary to win the cup: a goalie who is consistent and can steal a few playoff games. He's been this type of goalie during the regular season. But like many have said, he's unproven. But, I also believe many doubters also take into account and hold against Aebi is his swiss origin. There is most certainly a stigma in being a minority in such a tough professional sport and that is understandable because it only adds more to the unproven argument. Like seriously, it's not unrealistic for people to pose the question, what are the chances a swiss rookie playoff goalie can lead a team to the stanley cup.

Shoev: I concur with you...because Aebi "choked against the Nux", the season is lost. Lets just disregard his stats and clutch performances and focus only on the negatives. Thats what matters. Right, buddy? Heck, every goalie should be perfect every game even though no goalie has been.


Last edited by fcbarcelona: 03-05-2004 at 02:16 PM.
fcbarcelona is offline  
Old
03-05-2004, 02:15 PM
  #27
Gumballhead
Registered User
 
Gumballhead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Chicago
Posts: 3,738
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoeverine
I don't have to. His choke job against Vancouver says plenty enough.
Two quips and a cloud of dust? I can't take anyone seriously who would use one game as the basis for whether someone is a good goalie or not, especially when that goalie has been a consistenty good performer all season.

But, I watched Abby go into Detroit and shut down the Wings 5-2 on Valentine's Day, and based on that, he will lead the Avs to the Cup.

Gumballhead is offline  
Old
03-05-2004, 02:16 PM
  #28
Ensane
EL GUAPO
 
Ensane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 15,404
vCash: 500
Hey shoverine, instead of paying 25 cents for the local paper and merely reading the boxscores, I recommend that you pay the extra hundred for Center Ice, so you can actually watch the games that you feel the need to comment on. Either that, or just stop posting about things that you clearly didn't see all together.

Ensane is offline  
Old
03-05-2004, 05:30 PM
  #29
asavage
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 574
vCash: 500
Him being Swiss has nothing to do with it. Look how much Cloutier gets bashed on these boards
If healthy I expect Aebischer and Cloutier to both play well in the playoffs.

asavage is offline  
Old
03-05-2004, 06:16 PM
  #30
Yayo
 
Yayo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,938
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoeverine
I don't have to. His choke job against Vancouver says plenty enough.
Sure, now what about the other 51 games he's played this season? I want you to list every one of those games he's started...win, loss or tie, rating them good or bad.

Yayo is offline  
Old
03-05-2004, 06:56 PM
  #31
ZombieMatt
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,244
vCash: 500
Its because he is the replacement for Patrick Roy, and it doesn't matter what your name is, replacing the greatest goalie of all time is not going to be an easy feat.

Furthermore, he has no playoff experience, and any goalie without playoff experience gets questionned big time by the media. For good reason most of the time...most goalies (not always) don't excell the first time they play in the playoffs, just like any other player.

ZombieMatt is offline  
Old
03-06-2004, 02:41 PM
  #32
Beukeboom Fan
Registered User
 
Beukeboom Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 11,868
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountie
Its because he is the replacement for Patrick Roy, and it doesn't matter what your name is, replacing the greatest goalie of all time is not going to be an easy feat.
You know what's funny? You would think that Patrick Roy won the Cup 16 years in a row the way people rip on Aebischer.

IMO, Roy was the best goalie of all time. But being realistic, he got outdueled by Belfour 2 years in a row, his "Statue of Liberty" hot-dogging killed the Av's in against the Wings, and he was decidely average against the Wild last year.

After watching the Av's, I think they are overrated as a team. Unless Forsberg comes back they are going to get cooked in the P/O's, regardless of how well Aebischer plays. I haven't been impressed by the Av's defensive coverage, or by the the production of anybody but the top 5 (Forsberg, Sakic, Hejduk, Tanguay, & Blake). Only non top 6 forward that's contributing is Kono. Hell, neither Kariya or Selanne are on pace for a 20 goal season (over 82 games). I just don't see how the Av's are more than one of the 8 or so other teams that could say they have a legit chance to win the Cup (NJ, PHI, TOR, OTT, TB, DET, COL, VAN).

Beukeboom Fan is offline  
Old
03-06-2004, 03:27 PM
  #33
xtra
Registered User
 
xtra's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 3,103
vCash: 500
truly i think the avs have nothing to worry about. Abby is a good goalie. and this is coming from a nucks fan. i can say this whole hartedly. i would not be suprised to see the two supposed worst playoff goalies play in the west finals this year. yea that means a vancouver colorado WCF and maybe then we can have both the cloutier and abby bashers shut up finnally

xtra is offline  
Old
03-06-2004, 03:39 PM
  #34
Freudian
Clearly deranged
 
Freudian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Country: Sweden
Posts: 32,323
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by xtra
truly i think the avs have nothing to worry about. Abby is a good goalie. and this is coming from a nucks fan. i can say this whole hartedly. i would not be suprised to see the two supposed worst playoff goalies play in the west finals this year. yea that means a vancouver colorado WCF and maybe then we can have both the cloutier and abby bashers shut up finnally
I think the mistake some critics make is that they demand something you realistically can't demand. Some sort of guarantee of success. And no one can give that. And since no one can guarantee it, they don't deserve the shot. It is backwards reasoning, and if used all the time no new player would ever get the chance to prove himself.

Freudian is offline  
Old
03-06-2004, 03:55 PM
  #35
Vlad The Impaler
Registered User
 
Vlad The Impaler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Montreal
Posts: 11,727
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jericholic19
I honestly believe, however, that if Aebi's name was instead, Guy Trudeau, for example, he wouldn't have so many doubters against him. The fact that he's Swiss holds such a strong stigma among many "hockey experts" is unjustified.
And you know that how?

Please, get back to earth. Most observers out there demand that unproven goalies prove themselves in the playoffs. Most observers always cite the same suspects as being good bets to go far. If you take a look at the goalies that seem to generally inspire confidence to most, like Kolzig, Burke, Brodeur, Belfour, Hasek, Roy, Brodeur, you'll see, amazingly enough, that using logic tells us they are veterans, not necessarly Quebecois.

Why is it so hard to put 2+2 together?

Avs are contenders. And most people seem to feel insecure about goaltenders until they have proven themselves over a couple of seasons. It has absolutely nothing to do with the fact he is Swiss. He could be from Quebec, the USA or Madagascar and it wouldn't make a difference in how these people feel.

Vlad The Impaler is offline  
Old
03-06-2004, 04:03 PM
  #36
Enoch
This is my boomstick
 
Enoch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Cookeville TN
Country: United States
Posts: 12,640
vCash: 500
I think your wrong Vlad. Nationality almost always plays a part in most people's judgement. Ignoring that is silly. I don't think that is the deciding factor, in this instance, but if David was a good old Canadian boy........there would be a lot less criticism/and a lot more hype. If I'm an Avs fan, I'd take the criticism over the hype anyways.

Enoch is offline  
Old
03-06-2004, 05:15 PM
  #37
Vlad The Impaler
Registered User
 
Vlad The Impaler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Montreal
Posts: 11,727
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Enoch
I think your wrong Vlad. Nationality almost always plays a part in most people's judgement. Ignoring that is silly. I don't think that is the deciding factor, in this instance, but if David was a good old Canadian boy........there would be a lot less criticism/and a lot more hype.
Hmm... we disagree on this one :p

Really, after years here, I have come to the conclusion the #1 consideration here is statistical evidences. When marian Gaborik gets a few hat tricks, he wins polls as being a better player than Kovalchuk. When Kovalchuk has better numbers, he wins polls against Gaborik. When Heatley has better numbers he wins polls against Kovalchuk. When Iginla has better numbers than Bertuzzi, he wins polls against him. When Bertuzzi has better numbers, he wins polls. And when Iginla passes him again in numbers, he wins polls again. When Hemsky is on a hot streak, he ins polls against Havlat and now, havlat wins polls against him. And on, and on...

Now, there are some biases pertaining to nationality on these boards, but they do take a backseat over other considerations and stereotypes. Statistical evidences are always the number 1 consideration. This is my golden rule around here.

Regarding goaltending, here are the things we hear the most often around here when it comes to the playoffs:

1-It is important to have an experienced guy. He should have at least some modicum of past success in the playoffs
2-He should be a veteran. Probably 28+ and at least 4-5 years of NHL experience
3-He should already have a cup ring
4-It's better if he has had several consistent good seasons in a row instead of being hot and cold
5-It is preferable to have a goalie who hasn't done **** to a guy who has done a lot but did not win the most important games (CuJo)
6-Generally, people prefer goalies who have been in the media's eye for a long time

Those are the things I hear most often when people talk about playoffs goalie. I think you're confusing this with people talking about prospect goalies. Yes, there is some interest in Quebec's goalies and for good reason. It is true that it has been a factory of goaltending. Still, the number1 hyped goalie before this year was Kari Lehtonen (Finland) followd closely by Ryan Miller (isn't he from the USA? Not sure, although he did play there). There's also been Ari Ahonen, still highly regarded after years of doing absolutely nothing. This year the two top guys are from the USA (Montoya) and the Czech Republic (Schwarz). Both have passed Melnyk and there isn't even a hyped guy from Quebec.

And once guys are drafted, the numbers become more important and in the playoffs, the factors I have cited are those that come up. Do any number of searches. I am confident that you will find this holds true.

Tommy Salo was hailed as a great goalie in Edmonton and he is Swedish. Now his stats suck. One of the replacement most often suggested by people for Aebischer is Olaf Kolzig. Kolzig is German/South African. Why would people think less highly of Aebischer because he is Swiss and then demand a german replacement? Where is the logic there? I don't see it. I have seen very few Quebec names suggested to replace Aebischer.

It's all about experience, past accomplishments and stats. Otherwise, people would simply demand that Philippe Sauve becomes the #1 goalie. Problem solved without the need for a trade :p

There is not a lot of hype simply because Aebischer never had any hype on him. Goalies drafted where he was are not hyped. He then spent a couple of season as backup. Again, no reason to ne hyped. Now, he is starting off his career as a number 1. In time, people will make up their mind about him but for now, they see him as an unknown quantity.

Vlad The Impaler is offline  
Old
03-06-2004, 06:13 PM
  #38
Enoch
This is my boomstick
 
Enoch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Cookeville TN
Country: United States
Posts: 12,640
vCash: 500
I agree with everything you said, however, I still believe that if he was Canadien...he would recieve a lot more favorable criticism. Its just the way it is. Canadiens love their hockey, and when one of their own succeeds......they will let people know about it. Like I said, I really don't think David's nationality has anything to do with how he is regarded ATM, but I think it does play a part (albeit usually a small bias if that) in a lot of players reviews.

Enoch is offline  
Old
03-06-2004, 06:59 PM
  #39
fcbarcelona
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,451
vCash: 500
Kolzig played juniors in Canada...so he can still be considered "Canadian manufactured". I agree with Enoch, if Aebi was Canadian, more people would like him or be less critical of him. Many hockey friends of mine blatantly prefer canadian hockey players. In fact, after I reminded one of my buddies that Kolzig played in Canada, he thought better of Kolzig.

Although there's no doubt Aebi's inexperience is the basis for many critics doubting him, I firmly believe that his Swiss origins doesn't endear him to hockey fans/experts. I can even recall Glen Healy referring to Aebi as just a 1st year swiss goalie during an argument he was making for Colorado to acquire Kolzig. I totally got the impression that Healy isn't fond of Swiss goaltenders because they arent a goaltending factory. So, in the end, Aebischer's critics look at his inexperience and the lack of talent that's produced from Switzerland, while enmeshing their pro-Canadian favoritism into their arguments against Aebischer. Thus, I'm not surprised that Pierre McGuire and Greg Millen think more highly of Sauve. I'll also admit, I sometimes think the same way myself.

However, it should be noted that Don Cherry, of all guys, likes Aebischer and thinks the avs don't need to make a goaltending change.

fcbarcelona is offline  
Old
03-06-2004, 07:05 PM
  #40
Psycho Papa Joe
Porkchop Hoser
 
Psycho Papa Joe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Cesspool, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,356
vCash: 500
The problem isn't Aebischer as your #1. He's a fine goalie who's numbers speak for themselves. The problem is having Sauve as your insurance policy. IMO the AV's need to get an experienced backup who you wouldn't look out of place taking over in the playoffs.

Psycho Papa Joe is offline  
Old
03-06-2004, 07:31 PM
  #41
Yes Im Peter Ing
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,333
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to Yes Im Peter Ing
Quote:
Originally Posted by jericholic19
Kolzig played juniors in Canada...so he can still be considered "Canadian manufactured". I agree with Enoch, if Aebi was Canadian, more people would like him or be less critical of him. Many hockey friends of mine blatantly prefer canadian hockey players. In fact, after I reminded one of my buddies that Kolzig played in Canada, he thought better of Kolzig.
How's that any different from any other fans of various nationalities?

Yes Im Peter Ing is offline  
Old
03-06-2004, 07:51 PM
  #42
Freudian
Clearly deranged
 
Freudian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Country: Sweden
Posts: 32,323
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psycho Joe
The problem isn't Aebischer as your #1. He's a fine goalie who's numbers speak for themselves. The problem is having Sauve as your insurance policy. IMO the AV's need to get an experienced backup who you wouldn't look out of place taking over in the playoffs.
Don't disagree with you there. He has shown some promise this season but he is clearly not ready (to play in the playoffs if Aebischer goes down, that is).

Freudian is offline  
Old
03-07-2004, 05:23 AM
  #43
fcbarcelona
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,451
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yes Im Peter Ing
How's that any different from any other fans of various nationalities?
OK. Now we're becoming very technical here. There's no difference. If Germans or South Africans want to cheer him on...they can. But he is a Canadian raised goalie and that was a trait many hockey experts were aware of as he was coming through the goaltending ranks. It's not nationality, per se, that skews people's opinions. It's the training that is associated with the nationality that is the difference maker. It'd be interesting to know, however, what many thought of Kolzig prior to becoming the big name goalie he is. I doubt he faced the same stigma David is dealing with given Kolzig's strong Canadian content (and thus greater familiarity).

Aebischer, on the other hand, hasn't proved himself to be an elite playoff goalie. As I have said before, Aebi's inexperience is the major cause of doubt. But, because David also doesn't come from a Canadian background, there is greater support against him IMHO. I should have made this more clear though. It isn't because David is Swiss alone that he faces this stigma. It is the lack of training he had in Canada due to his Swiss origins that casts many doubts against him. This may appear to alter my argument from the original post to a great extent though but alas David's lack of Canadian golatending association that is being perceived was what I insinuated by noting his Swiss origins.


Last edited by fcbarcelona: 03-07-2004 at 06:12 AM.
fcbarcelona is offline  
Old
03-07-2004, 05:44 AM
  #44
fcbarcelona
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,451
vCash: 500
[QUOTE=Vlad The Impaler]And you know that how?
QUOTE]

I'm being honest here. I just threw out the Quebecois name as an example of what many people would envision would be a typical premier goalie's name. I just wanted to point out that David's lack of Canadian goaltending upbringing works against him and this is the main premise of my argument. Don't take my post too literally.

It's interesting to note, however, that Pierre McGuire and co. state that Colorado needs a goaltending change while they don't mention Boston as a team that also needs a goalie change to win the stanley cup, despite the fact both goalies enter the playoffs with similar credentials. There is no doubt, that given all things being equal, there is more favoritism towards Canadian bred players (Raycroft is from Belleville, Ontario btw).


Last edited by fcbarcelona: 03-07-2004 at 06:01 AM.
fcbarcelona is offline  
Old
03-07-2004, 06:05 AM
  #45
fcbarcelona
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,451
vCash: 500
Here's an interesting read: http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,...001719,00.html

You guys should really check out this article.

fcbarcelona is offline  
Old
03-07-2004, 07:11 AM
  #46
Freudian
Clearly deranged
 
Freudian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Country: Sweden
Posts: 32,323
vCash: 50
I think Jeri has a point though since when a Goalie is from Quebec we think of the goalie tradition there and the quality of hockey education. At least I assume that a goalie from Quebec has had good trainers since an early age. Might be wrong of course.

Freudian is offline  
Old
03-07-2004, 08:21 AM
  #47
Strizzi
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Country: Switzerland
Posts: 3,069
vCash: 500
The bright side of this is that if Aebisher won't fold in the playoffs, he definitely will have to be given a lot of credit. The mental pressure he's facing now has not been burdened on any young goalie since Roy in Montreal. Both Turco and Giguere did not nearly have that much pressure on them last year, Giguere particularly could only over- and not underachieve. If Aebischer can stand that pressure, he proves mental toughness at its best. That will be the single biggest test of his career.

Strizzi is offline  
Old
03-07-2004, 10:13 AM
  #48
Jori
Registered User
 
Jori's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Denver, CO
Country: United States
Posts: 20,220
vCash: 500
Send a message via Yahoo to Jori
Thanks for posting that article Jeri. I'm not sure if such a stigma exists concerning David Aebischer. I have had a chance to sample opinions from American and Canadian media and for the most part they seem to be "supportive" of Aebischer. Obviously there are some exceptions *cough* Pierre McGuire *cough* Yet most have gave the goalie his due and are waiting to see what he does in the playoffs, which is understandable.

He has already faced two tough tests:

Replacing Patrick Roy (which isn't easy when you consider what happened with Brian Griese and the Denver Broncos after Elway's retirement)

Handling the duties of a number one goaltender

And yet his first post season action cannot be overlooked. Giguere didn't have as much pressure on him because the Ducks were expected to be first round fodder for the Red Wings. The pressure was much higher on Turco because Dallas was a championship calibur team. Aebischer will face much heavier scrutiny because he is not only playing behind a championship calibur team, but he attempts to lead a team that lost one of the greatest playoff goaltenders of all time. Yet his personality reveals a calm, cool and collected individual and that can only help come post season time.

I must admit I'm intrigued how Aebischer will react. I was a fan who felt the Avalanche should have went out and acquire a number one goaltender after Roy announced his retirement. While I still would feel more comfortable if the Avs had an experienced netminder going into the post season. It also would be unfair of me to say that Aebischer doesn't deserve a chance. It is a big risk by Lacroix, but Lacroix has taken big risks before in trades and in coaching hires. However, this may be his biggest risky move yet.

Jori is offline  
Old
03-07-2004, 01:15 PM
  #49
fcbarcelona
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,451
vCash: 500
Jori, thx for the nice comments. I think in general, hockey experts are favourable to aebischer. But there are many exceptions, with McGuire and Healy being the most prominent. As well, you can bet the mongerers who start the rumours probably don't think aebischer has what it takes to lead the avs. plus, if you talk to the common canadian fan, there is a consensus that PL should get a goalie and are, at the same time, much more favourable to canadian hockey players. in fact, what spurred me on to post the original comments was the anti-forsberg sentiments that seems to be prominent amongst my friends. of course some are canucks fans, but others are just casual canadian hockey fans (so they only favour canadian teams) and these guys no doubt like sakic much more than forsberg (same can be said for canucks fans as well). man do i ever get ribbed for saying peter's my fav player. so it got me thinking...do these guys not like aebischer because he played his hockey in switzerland (i.e. not north american)?

fcbarcelona is offline  
Old
03-07-2004, 02:34 PM
  #50
Vlad The Impaler
Registered User
 
Vlad The Impaler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Montreal
Posts: 11,727
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jericholic19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler
And you know that how?
It's interesting to note, however, that Pierre McGuire and co. state that Colorado needs a goaltending change while they don't mention Boston as a team that also needs a goalie change to win the stanley cup, despite the fact both goalies enter the playoffs with similar credentials. There is no doubt, that given all things being equal, there is more favoritism towards Canadian bred players (Raycroft is from Belleville, Ontario btw).
See, this is exactly what I'm talking about. You're not using logic here. The reason they aren't clamoring for the Bruins to replace Raycroft is not because he is Canadian. It's because we're talking about THE BRUINS.

Put Raycroft on the Avs and Aebischer on the Bruins and you might hear a different tune. The Avs are perennial contenders. People expect them to have stars at every position.

People do not expect that of the Bruins and thus, do not demand a deal.

You can see discrimination everywhere. You can make connections between anything. At one point, you gotta look at the big picture, though. The Bruins are not spenders. Nobody expects them to do much as far as moving players.

Here's one for you: Chris Osgood. Was backup to Mike Vernon. Then became the #1 and people were uneasy with him. Look it up, he's Canadian. Funny eh?

Vlad The Impaler is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:02 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.