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Better team: Boston or San Jose?

View Poll Results: Who is the better team?
Boston Bruins, 25-5-4 46 17.10%
San Jose Sharks, 27-4-3 210 78.07%
Even 13 4.83%
Voters: 269. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
12-27-2008, 07:14 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by Dr Quincy View Post
I think he is having the better season for sure, and I don't know how you can argue he isn't. Will that keep up for the remainder of the year? I don't know. Clearly Thornton has been the better player en total since the lockout.

It's the same as Clowe and Kobasew. They are the same age, and Kobasew has been better over the course of their careers, but that doesn't mean that Clowe isn't having the better year this year (and I will readily admit that the edge Clowe has over Kobasew this year is greater than the edge that Savard has over Thornton this year).

I just chose these 2 players to illustrate the greater point: just because 1 player might be "better" historically than another doesn't mean that the "lesser" player can't outperform him in any 1 season.

So, while Thornton may be the better player, RIGHT NOW he is being outperformed by Savard.

Now answer my question: Do you think Thornton is having the better season thus far? If so, what evidence do you have to back that up?
This thread is not about which guy is better. Like you said before, Thornton might be a better player in his career, but Savard is having a nice year thus far. At the end of the year, these two won't be separated by much.

I'd also like to state, that thus far Thomas has been the better goaltender by a little bit. At the end of the year, we can look back and see if this holds true. I really don't think it will.

And for injuries, you may add Jeremy Roenick to the mix. Along with Torrey Mitchell, who has (since you know it all) missed all year thus far.

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Old
12-27-2008, 07:18 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Dr Quincy View Post
Forward Depth:

SJ's Forwards in 34 games: 96 goals
Boston Forwards in 34 games: 103 goals

SJ- 0 over 20, 2 over 15, 4 w/ 10 or more, 6 w/ 5 or more, 14 F's 1 or more
Boston- 1 over 20, 1 over 15, 6 w/ 10 or more, 9 w/ 5 or more, 13 F's w/ 1 or more

Boston has more in double digits and more with 5 or more and has 7 more goals from their forwards. I'd say clearly Boston has the greater depth. 9 regulars have 5 or more compared to only 6 regulars w/ 5 or more on SJ.
Kind of sad you keep digging up these number just to assure yourself that Boston is, maybe, a "bit" better than San Jose.

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Old
12-27-2008, 07:20 PM
  #78
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why is it sad to bring up numbers to show how Boston compares to San Jose in a thread comparing Boston and San Jose?

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Old
12-27-2008, 07:23 PM
  #79
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Who cares? really we'll see if we ever play each other

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12-27-2008, 07:23 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by jmerv View Post
This thread is not about which guy is better. Like you said before, Thornton might be a better player in his career, but Savard is having a nice year thus far. At the end of the year, these two won't be separated by much.

I'd also like to state, that thus far Thomas has been the better goaltender by a little bit. At the end of the year, we can look back and see if this holds true. I really don't think it will.

And for injuries, you may add Jeremy Roenick to the mix. Along with Torrey Mitchell, who has (since you know it all) missed all year thus far.
I'm aware of those injuries. Do you honestly think that those injuries mean that the Sharks have been hit harder by injuries than most teams in the league? Do you want to explain to Devils or Canucks fans that the loss of a 39 year old Roenick and a 20 pt Mitchell are equivalent to losing Brodeur or Luongo?

Yes I know SJ has had injuries. So has every other team. SJ has not had any more than their fair share, and to imply otherwise is a bit whiny.

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12-27-2008, 07:24 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by jmerv View Post
Kind of sad you keep digging up these number just to assure yourself that Boston is, maybe, a "bit" better than San Jose.
Kind of sad that not one SJ fan has refuted any numbers isn't.

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12-27-2008, 07:49 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Dr Quincy View Post
Kind of sad that not one SJ fan has refuted any numbers isn't.
The numbers mean nothing. San Jose has a better record than Boston, that is all that matters. Not that Boston has ONE more 20 goal scorer than San Jose. Also SJ will have Marleau with more goals than Kessel by the end of the year.

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Old
12-28-2008, 12:16 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Nashology View Post
The numbers mean nothing. San Jose has a better record than Boston, that is all that matters. Not that Boston has ONE more 20 goal scorer than San Jose. Also SJ will have Marleau with more goals than Kessel by the end of the year.
What makes you think this?

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12-28-2008, 01:49 AM
  #84
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Boston has 1 over the 15 and the 3 and a half divided by the four plus-minuses with one less forced offside of the nut... CLEARLY Boston wins!

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12-28-2008, 02:07 AM
  #85
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San Jose

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12-28-2008, 09:02 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by SJfortheCUP View Post
Boston has 1 over the 15 and the 3 and a half divided by the four plus-minuses with one less forced offside of the nut... CLEARLY Boston wins!
Is there something with the reading comprehension skills in the greater San Jose area?

Again: I said San Jose is the better team.

I was responding to a SJ fan whose REASONING (and I'll at least give him credit for being the 1 SJ fan in here who has showed any reasoning) was that SJ has greater Forward depth than Boston. You can either join the actual debate and respond with a well-thought out post, or just post from ignorance. Frankly, given the above post, I'm not holding out much hope.

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Old
12-28-2008, 11:20 AM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Quincy View Post
Is there something with the reading comprehension skills in the greater San Jose area?

Again: I said San Jose is the better team.

I was responding to a SJ fan whose REASONING (and I'll at least give him credit for being the 1 SJ fan in here who has showed any reasoning) was that SJ has greater Forward depth than Boston. You can either join the actual debate and respond with a well-thought out post, or just post from ignorance. Frankly, given the above post, I'm not holding out much hope.
What, IMO, is getting lost here is that the message you're conveying (Sharks are better) is being overshadowed by what you've accompanied with that message.

To me, the two teams are probably pretty even. I say probably, exactly because of what your post demonstrated. You were able to go into extreme depth using statistical analysis that actually favors the Bruins, yet your conclusion was that the Sharks were the better squad, proving that they're (probably) pretty damn equal. Hence the confusion, the skimming over of what you feel about the topic at hand, and the apprehension of Sharks fans, despite your overall agreement.

I'll be in Boston on Feb. 10 when the two teams won't have to match up on paper, but on the ice, where games are won and lost. All I personally can conclude (as I don't watch much Bruins hockey [can't stand Jack Edwards]) is that it should be a good game, because of how it looks on paper. Hopefully its as good on the ice.

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Old
12-28-2008, 04:34 PM
  #88
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Wow.

They're both great teams. The splitting hairs on every little thing is ridiculous.

2/10/09. I think we can have a clearer view of who's better on that day.

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Old
12-29-2008, 02:40 AM
  #89
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Hard to compare an east team and a west team 35 some odd games into the season. Records are both pretty much the same. But seeing as though San Jose has to travel a further distance than Boston to play most of their games I'll give an edge to the Sharks. Hopefully they're the better team in may and june.

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Old
12-29-2008, 02:50 AM
  #90
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I got Boston.

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Old
12-29-2008, 10:09 AM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeke View Post
J.Thornton (29): 34gms, 9gls, 39pts, +14, 19:28 (82gms, 22gls, 94pts, +34)
M.Savard (31): 34gms, 11gls, 40pts, +21, 19:19 (82gms, 27gls, 97pts, +51

P.Marleau (29): 34gms, 18gls, 40pts, +16, 21:24 (82gms, 43gls, 97pts, +39)
P.Kessel (21): 34gms, 21gls, 37pts, +16, 16:50 (82gms, 51gls, 89pts, +39)

D.Setogouchi (21): 34gms, 17gls, 36pts, +17, 16:17 (82gms, 41gls, 87pts, +41)
D.Krejci (22): 34gms, 13gls, 37pts, +19, 16:38 (82gms, 31gls, 89pts, +46)


R.Clowe (26): 34gms, 14gls, 27pts, +3, 16:47 (82gms, 34gls, 65pts, +7)
M.Ryder (28): 34gms, 12gls, 24pts, +12, 14:57 (82gms, 29gls, 58pts, +29)

J.Pavelski (24): 32gms, 11gls, 24pts, +2, 18:50 (82gms, 28gls, 62pts, +5)
M.Lucic (20): 34gms, 10gls, 24pts, +16, 15:37 (82gms, 24gls, 58pts, +39)

M.Michalek (24): 29gms, 7gls, 19pts, +2, 18:33 (82gms, 20gls, 54pts, +5)
M.Sturm (30): 19gms, 7gls, 13pts, +9, 16:02 (82gms, 30gls, 56pts, +39)


J.Cheechoo (28): 22gms, 4gls, 10pts, -1, 16:09 (82gms, 15gls, 37pts, -4)
C.Kobasew (26): 22gms, 5gls, 15pts, +8, 14:06 (82gms, 19gls, 56pts, +30)

M.Grier (33): 32gms, 4gls, 12pts, +4, 14:42 (82gms, 10gls, 31pts, +10)
B.Wheeler (22): 34gms, 11gls, 20pts, +19, 12:28 (82gms, 27gls, 48pts, +46)

T.Plihal (25): 30gms, 4gls, 8pts, -2, 10:15 (82gms, 11gls, 22pts, -6)
P.Bergeron (23): 31gms, 4gls, 18pts, +1, 18:03 (82gms, 11gls, 48pts, +3)


J.Roenick (38): 28gms, 3gls, 8pts, -1, 10:21 (82gms, 9gls, 23pts, -3)
P.J.Axelsson (33): 31gms, 1gls, 12pts, -4, 16:44 (82gms, 3gls, 32pts, -11)

M.Goc (25): 26gms, 1gls, 6pts, -3, 14:08 (82gms, 3gls, 19pts, -10)
S.Yelle (34): 34gms, 5gls, 10pts, +5, 13:00 (82gms, 12gls, 24pts, +12)

J.Shelley (32): 33gms, 1gls, 3pts, -2, 6:06 (82gms, 3gls, 8pts, -5)
S.Thornton (31): 34gms, 2gls, 5pts, +1, 9:29 (82gms, 5gls, 12pts, -2)

J.McGinn (20): 10gms, 2gls, 3pts, +0, 7:23 (82gms, 16gls, 25pts, +0)
P.Nokelainen (22): 21gms, 0gls, 1pts, -1, 10:12 (82gms, 0gls, 4pts, -4)

L.Kaspar (23): 9gms, 1gls, 2pts, -2, 8:39 (82gms, 9gls, 18pts, -18)
V.Sobotka (21): 9gms, 1gls, 2pts, -1, 9:54 (82gms, 9gls, 18pts, -9)




D.Boyle (32): 33gms, 11gls, 29pts, +6, 23:18 (82gms, 27gls, 72pts, +15)
Z.Chara (31): 34gms, 6gls, 20pts, +15, 26:00 (82gms, 15gls, 48pts, +36)

M.Vlasic (21): 34gms, 3gls, 19pts, +13, 24:22 (82gms, 7gls, 46pts, +31)
D.Wideman (25): 33gms, 7gls, 19pts, +17, 25:22 (82gms, 17gls, 47pts, +42)


R.Blake (39): 34gms, 6gls, 24pts, +7, 21:37 (82gms, 15gls, 58pts, +17)
M.Hunwick (23): 22gms, 3gls, 14pts, +13, 17:29 (82gms, 11gls, 52pts, +49)

C.Erhoff (26): 34gms, 2gls, 16pts, +3, 20:43 (82gms, 5gls, 39pts, +7)
A.Ference (29): 16gms, 0gls, 7pts, +9, 22:27 (82gms, 0gls, 36pts, +46)


B.Lukowich (32): 31gms, 0gls, 6pts, +5, 16:00 (82gms, 0gls, 16pts, +13)
A.Ward (35): 25gms, 0gls, 3pts, +9, 19:00 (82gms, 0gls, 10pts, +30)

D.Murray (28): 29gms, 0gls, 0pts, -1, 15:48 (82gms, 0gls, 0pts, -3)
S.Hnidy (33): 30gms, 2gls, 8pts, +13, 15:32 (82gms, 6gls, 22pts, +36)

A.Semenov (27): 10gms, 0gls, 1pts, +2, 14:00 (82gms, 0gls, 8pts, +16)
M.Stuart (24): [b] 34gms, 3gls, 5pts, +10, 14:54 (82gms, 7gls, 12pts, +24)





E.Nabokov (33): 24gms, 19-3-2, 2.48gaa, .907sv%, 2so
T.Thomas (34): 20gms, 14-3-2, 2.04gaa, .935sv%, 3so

B.Boucher (31): 10gms, 8-1-1, 1.88gaa, .928sv%, 2so
M.Fernandez (34): 15gms, 11-2-1, 2.09gaa, .926sv%, 1so
Stats wise Almost a mirror image for quite a few players.

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Old
12-29-2008, 10:20 AM
  #92
Neely2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Quincy View Post
1) I'll explain how. You make a false syllogism. Yes Nabokov is a Vezina runner up, but that doesn't automatically lead to your conclusion that he is better. If you are familiar with the behindthenet.ca statistical analysis site you would know that many statistics from last year showed that Nabokov didn't deserve to be in the Vezina running. This year is no different.

Which goalie would you want most and which would you want least?:

2.48 GAA .907 svp
2.04 GAA .935 svp
2.09 GAA .926 svp
2.46 GAA .911 svp
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.They are in order:
Nabokov
Thomas
Fernandez
Alex Auld (who I threw in there to show how mediocore Nabokov's stats are).

Really, what evidence do you have, other than he plays on a good team that wins, that Nabokov is better than either Thomas or Fernandez this year? Heck, his own teammate Boucher has outplayed him completely this year.

2) Again statistical evidence refutes your 2nd contention about Thornton and Savard: Who do you take:
34 games, 11 goals, 29 assists, +21
34 games, 9 goals, 30 assists, +14

Savard kills penalties more than Thornton too.

Savard 491 minutes, 36 goals 4 = Savard on the ice for 1 goal every 13.8 minutes
Thornton 517 minutes, 32 goals for = Thornton is on the ice for 1 goal every 16.2 even strength minutes

Oh and you've alreadly claimed that Thornton's linemates are better than Savard's, so that means Savard totally outperforms Thornton. He's on the ice less even strength, but yet his team scores more goals.


Let's look at defensively:
Savard 491 minutes 15 goals against= 1 goal against every 33.2 even strength minutes
Thornton 517 minutes 18 goals against= 1 goal against every 28.7 minutes even strength

Oh and you also said that Thornton has the better defensemen and goalies. So how do you explain the opposing team scoring more on Thornton than on Savard?

A team of Savards even strength would score 4.3 goals a game and give up 1.8 goals a game.

A team of Thorntons would score 3.8 goals a game and give up 2.1 goals a game.

I've presented a case for either Fernandez or Thomas over Nabokov. I've presented a case for Savard over Thornton.

I'd love to see your evidence as to why Thornton is the superior player this year, or why you think Nabokov is outplaying the Boston duo. I will give any evidence you submit careful consideration. Thanks.

Also, I'd be glad to look at some of your other statements about forward and defensive depth if you'd like. I also find your "injury" rationale rather lame, as the Sharks have been hit no harder by injuries than any other team in the league, and certainly not as hard as the Bruins.

The only F missing significant time is Cheechoo with 12 games. The only D man is Murray with 5 games.

Do you honestly, HONESTLY, think that compares to:
Aaron Ward missing 9 games and Andrew Ferrence missing 18? Seriously? You have your #6 dman miss 5 games and that equals Boston missing their 3 & 4 (or 5) guys missing 9 and 18 games (and having both of them out at the same time for 9 games)?

Forwards: Cheecho missed 12 games. Kobasew 12, Sturm 15

Oh and both Boston guys have more points than Cheechoo, despite having played the same or significantly less time.
Good luck getting anyone to acknowledge that Savard is having a better season thus far than Thornton or that Thomas/Fernandez is having a better season thus far than Nabokov. Hell Thomas can't even get on the All Star Ballot...

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Old
12-29-2008, 10:47 AM
  #93
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San Jose is better. Boston's record would suffer in the West.

More travel and tougher opponents make a difference.

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12-29-2008, 11:19 AM
  #94
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Boston will catch up slowly but surely.

Hell's Bell, Boston is kicking Western teams all up and down. GTFO.

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12-29-2008, 11:39 AM
  #95
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Originally Posted by HellsBells View Post
San Jose is better. Boston's record would suffer in the West.

More travel and tougher opponents make a difference.
Good point. Consider this though:

Boston home games: 15
SJ home games: 20

Boston Road games: 21
SJ Road games: 15

So I'm not that sure at all that SJ has travelled more than Boston.

Also: Boston has played back to back games 7 times
SJ has played back to back games 5 times

I'm not saying that Boston has had a tougher schedule by any means, but if we are going to look at schedule and travel we should look at as much info as possible.

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12-29-2008, 12:06 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by likewall32 View Post
What, IMO, is getting lost here is that the message you're conveying (Sharks are better) is being overshadowed by what you've accompanied with that message.

To me, the two teams are probably pretty even. I say probably, exactly because of what your post demonstrated. You were able to go into extreme depth using statistical analysis that actually favors the Bruins, yet your conclusion was that the Sharks were the better squad, proving that they're (probably) pretty damn equal. Hence the confusion, the skimming over of what you feel about the topic at hand, and the apprehension of Sharks fans, despite your overall agreement.
Perhaps this will help clear the confusion:

If someone said that Angelina Jolie was better looking than Janet Reno and that the reason for this was that Angelina had the nicer ankles, I could agree with the general conclusion, but disagree with that person's reasoning.

While our case isn't nearly the mismatch of my hypothetical, the hypothetical does serve a purpose.

I would say that SJ is the better team because I have a little bit more faith that they will continue to play very well, because they've been an upper echelon team for a couple of years now. As well as Boston has played, there is still a chance that they will come back to the pack a bit, because their long term track record isn't as good.

But that does nothing to dissuade me from my opinion that Boston has the deeper corps of forwards, and I think my evidence of that (more double digit scorers etc) is proof. It's a slight edge, but an edge.

And I would admit that 1-6 I think SJ has the better D.

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12-29-2008, 02:07 PM
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Quincy View Post
Good point. Consider this though:

Boston home games: 15
SJ home games: 20

Boston Road games: 21
SJ Road games: 15

So I'm not that sure at all that SJ has travelled more than Boston.

Also: Boston has played back to back games 7 times
SJ has played back to back games 5 times

I'm not saying that Boston has had a tougher schedule by any means, but if we are going to look at schedule and travel we should look at as much info as possible.
Its not about the number of road games IMO, its the distance traveled. 2 weeks ago for example(Sat night), SJ played a home game vs. Anaheim, then monday night a game @ LA, then wednesday night a game in Columbus (Not exactly around the block) then had to play the next night in Detroit. Then flew all the way home to play the NYR on saturday night.

My point being with all the east teams in the same timezone and not as far distance wise, fatigue is less of a factor.

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12-29-2008, 05:03 PM
  #98
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Sharks easily.

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12-29-2008, 05:09 PM
  #99
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San Jose.

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12-29-2008, 05:45 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by ArcticSharkie View Post
Its not about the number of road games IMO, its the distance traveled.
I get your point, and your theory seems to make sense, but it assumes all sorts of things without you actually providing any proof (other than your anecdotal 5 game stretch).

1) You don't know if SJ has actually logged more miles or not. You assume they have because the western cities are more spread out, but as I said, Boston has had 6 more road games than SJ. How this affects the mileage of the 2 teams neither one of us know.

BTW- I did the calculations for the stretch you mentioned. SJ traveled 4464 miles during that stretch. Boston had a stretch of going from Boston to Edmonton, to Vancouver, to Calgary back to Boston... that's 5061 miles. This doesn't mean Boston has traveled as much or more than SJ, but it's just a counter to your anedotal info.

2) You don't know that miles flown actually has a tangible effect on a team's performance. Again, it makes sense that it would, but there's no real proof of it. OTOH there is proof that playing at home DOES have a real affect on a team's performance. This year home teams have a record of 298-163-71 and road teams have a record of 234-237-61.

So, while we KNOW that SJ has had the benefit of playing at home 5 more times than Boston, and we KNOW that Boston has had the detriment of playing 6 more road games than SJ, and we KNOW that Boston has had the detriment of playing more back to back games...we do not know if SJ has traveled more miles, and we don't know if that actually has an effect on a team's record.

To see the home/road effect you only have to look at Joe Thornton this season.

Home- 20 games, 7 goals, 22 assists, 29 pts, 1.45 pts a game
Road- 15 games, 2 goals, 10 assists, 12 pts, .8 pts a game

A Home Joe Thornton season would be: 28 goals, 90 assists
A Road Joe Thornton season would be: 11 (rounded up) goals, 55 assists (though it's interesting to note that last year his home/road splits were nearly identical... so it's possible he could go on a monster road tear this year).


Last edited by Dr Quincy: 12-29-2008 at 05:56 PM.
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