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Sheldon Souray Vs. Lubomir Visnovsky

View Poll Results: Souray or Visnovsky
Souray 144 67.29%
Visnovsky 35 16.36%
Can't decide 34 15.89%
Other (who?) 1 0.47%
Voters: 214. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
12-27-2008, 03:47 AM
  #1
ChokeOnOil
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Sheldon Souray Vs. Lubomir Visnovsky

One thing I've noticed throughout the season is the steady stream of comments on Souray and Visnovsky. People throwing out from both sides the other has been the most valuble defenseman this season. It hardly ever turned into a real debate, because you don't really ever debate on something positive on this board. SO, in your opinion who has been the best overall Dman on the Oilers this season? Taking into accont leader ship, both sides of the puck, ect.

(Keep in mind this is before tonight)

Souray

Season GP G A PTS +/- PPG PPA SHG SHA GWG GTG PIM SH PCT
Year to date: 2008-2009 32 10 14 24 1 6 5 1 0 2 0 42 109 9.2
On pace: 81 23 36 59 1 13 13 2 0 2 0 99 8.5

Visnovsky
Season GP G A PTS +/- PPG PPA SHG SHA GWG GTG PIM SH PCT
Year to date: 2008-2009 33 5 15 20 5 3 9 0 0 1 0 22 63 7.9
On pace: 82 12 33 45 5 7 17 0 0 2 0 56 7.7

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Old
12-27-2008, 03:56 AM
  #2
theranfordflop
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It's really difficult to compare these guys, I think you need a bit of both to have success.

If I had to choose, it has to be Souray though. He's a stabilizing force. Visnovsky is a great complimentary talent. Souray has the ability to impose himself on a game.

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Old
12-27-2008, 03:57 AM
  #3
Cerebral
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I think they've been essentially equal up to this point. Visnovsky has been superior defensively but Souray hasn't exactly been a slouch in that regard and his offensive production has been very impressive as well. All things considered, these two are working out very well for us this season and they're both logging a lot of minutes.

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12-27-2008, 06:18 AM
  #4
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If it came down to the fact that we have to choose one to keep and let the other go.....

At this point in time I would choose Souray.

I feel he has a more gamebreaking ability with his feared slapshot...

But then again, maybe its not so feared when Vis is not here cause opposition feels they pnly have to cover him on the PP and no one else. Right now the Oilers are able to ice 2 PP lines that are capable of scoring goals sue to the great quarterbacking from both defenseman.


SOURAY

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Old
12-27-2008, 09:58 AM
  #5
Bodmanza
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Souray for sure. But it isn't by as much of a stretch as when I first considered the question.
Mobility is a huge thing nowadays, and though Souray has gotten better, Vis is the definition of mobile.

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12-27-2008, 10:04 AM
  #6
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In the games I've seen on the net from Tokyo in the mornings, No contest.
Souray has looked quite good defensively to me. He often makes a play when I think he's out of reach or out of position but he pulls off the defensive check and then makes a smart play. He plays like an experienced hockey player. The kind of fellow you see on cup winning teams. Say nothing of the shot, which gives the team a lot of what Pronger had in terms offense.

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Old
12-27-2008, 10:22 AM
  #7
Lessy
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Souray was an absolute beast in the first 20 games or so of the year. Easily a Norris candidate and he was carrying our team with Hemmer. However I think the last 15 games or so Visnovsky has really picked up his play and quite possibly overtaken Souray when looking at the season as a whole. He's getting more comfortable and playing remarkably good hockey at both ends of the ice. It's hard to choose but I'd go with Visnovsky. Both have played very well for us.

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Old
12-27-2008, 10:25 AM
  #8
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Chris Pronger

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Old
12-27-2008, 10:39 AM
  #9
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Is this even close?

This thread exemplifies that the standard fan tends to disburse excessive consideration to the “sexy” stats, and grossly undervalues the significance of the underlying counting numbers.

VISNOVSKY
QUAL COMP: 0.00
GAON/60: 1.43

SOURAY
QUAL COMP: 0.02
GAON/60:

Visnovsky leads the defensive squad with GAON/60 (minimum 20 games played), whereas Souray is 2nd worst in the same category. Visnovsky also plays more challenging minutes.

And catch this – Visnovsky has a superior PPP/60 rate (2.87 vs 2.84 – neither of which are first-rate). To be fair, Souray’s presence on the PP has lead to a higher GFON/60 5 vs 4 (7.30 vs 5.74), but to argue that Souray is an elite powerplay performer is questionable, given he can’t effectively QB a powerplay. He is principally a one-trick pony 5 vs 4, and can’t distribute the puck effectively.

In summary: Visnovsky is arguably the team MVP, while Souray, while good, is no where near all-star consideration worthy.

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Old
12-27-2008, 10:48 AM
  #10
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^ should have read 2.40 GAON/60 for Souray.

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12-27-2008, 11:05 AM
  #11
Lessy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PunjabiOil View Post
Is this even close?

This thread exemplifies that the standard fan tends to disburse excessive consideration to the “sexy” stats, and grossly undervalues the significance of the underlying counting numbers.

VISNOVSKY
QUAL COMP: 0.00
GAON/60: 1.43

SOURAY
QUAL COMP: 0.02
GAON/60:

Visnovsky leads the defensive squad with GAON/60 (minimum 20 games played), whereas Souray is 2nd worst in the same category. Visnovsky also plays more challenging minutes.

And catch this – Visnovsky has a superior PPP/60 rate (2.87 vs 2.84 – neither of which are first-rate). To be fair, Souray’s presence on the PP has lead to a higher GFON/60 5 vs 4 (7.30 vs 5.74), but to argue that Souray is an elite powerplay performer is questionable, given he can’t effectively QB a powerplay. He is principally a one-trick pony 5 vs 4, and can’t distribute the puck effectively.

In summary: Visnovsky is arguably the team MVP, while Souray, while good, is no where near all-star consideration worthy.
Hemsky is easily the team MVP. It's not really close. And I think it is quite close between Souray and Lubo. Souray was easily better in the first 15-20 while Lubo has been superior in the next 15-20 games. I don't really care who's QUALCOMPGFGAONVSOPPHENWICKCORSI is higher. The best method is to watch the games (and I know you do). I'm not saying Visnovsky hasn't outplayed Souray because I think he has, I just think it's a lot closer than your post suggests.

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Old
12-27-2008, 11:09 AM
  #12
CanadianCommie
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I think they both contribute on the ice in an essentially equal way, except I think Souray may bring more leadership to the room (not that Vish isn't contributing).

I gave Souray the edge, but really, their on-ice contribution seems pretty equal, it just comes out differently. Souray has his booming shot, he's physical and holding his own defensively, while Vishnovsky has been a lot more subtle, but more effective in a shut-down role and has both a fantastic pass and a pretty good shot himself.

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Old
12-27-2008, 11:11 AM
  #13
McGhostbuster
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It's pretty close, but when Souray is terrible, the team is terrible. Visnovsky is more skilled but Souray brings more intangibles.

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12-27-2008, 11:12 AM
  #14
shoop
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lessy View Post
Hemsky is easily the team MVP. It's not really close. And I think it is quite close between Souray and Lubo. Souray was easily better in the first 15-20 while Lubo has been superior in the next 15-20 games. I don't really care who's QUALCOMPGFGAONVSOPPHENWICKCORSI is higher. The best method is to watch the games (and I know you do). I'm not saying Visnovsky hasn't outplayed Souray because I think he has, I just think it's a lot closer than your post suggests.
Well said!

wtf is QUAL COMP and GAON/60?

Definitely not standard statistics. Pretty ridiculous to post those without explaining what they are...

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12-27-2008, 11:15 AM
  #15
camboy
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Can't decide. They have both been excellent. Oh, how I wish we had a premier shut down guy to complement their talents.

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12-27-2008, 11:17 AM
  #16
Lessy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shoop View Post
Well said!

wtf is QUAL COMP and GAON/60?

Definitely not standard statistics. Pretty ridiculous to post those without explaining what they are...
I know what they are somewhat. One refers to quality of competition the player faces (decent stat but objectively determined imo) and the other refers to goals against when the player is on the ice for a total of 60 minutes (I think). These kinds of stats are just ridiculously overused in arguments on these boards I find. The core stats are much more telling, and watching the game is more telling than either method. Just because a player has a Corsi rating of 500 thousand and a QUAL COMP of a few million doesn't necessarily mean they are the better player.

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12-27-2008, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lessy View Post
Hemsky is easily the team MVP. It's not really close. And I think it is quite close between Souray and Lubo. Souray was easily better in the first 15-20 while Lubo has been superior in the next 15-20 games.
Compare Souray's GAON/60 numbers whilst he was paired with Visnovsky, and the ask yourself why they enlarged subsequent to being separated from Visnovsky.

The fact that Visnovsky sustained his astute defensive numbers illustrates that he drove the bus for the first 15-20 games.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lessy View Post
I don't really care who's QUALCOMPGFGAONVSOPPHENWICKCORSI is higher.
Your loss

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lessy View Post
The best method is to watch the games (and I know you do). I'm not saying Visnovsky hasn't outplayed Souray because I think he has, I just think it's a lot closer than your post suggests.
It would be prudent, as many GMs (like yourself and the "standard" fan) grossly overrate the "sexy" numbers to trade Souray. I would be looking at offering Souray, Nilsson, Schremp, and Brule for Jay Bouweemeester (contract extended, of course).

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12-27-2008, 11:19 AM
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Visnovsky has been the most consistent dman all season, and for the last 15-20 games has outplayed Souray. He gets my vote.

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12-27-2008, 11:20 AM
  #19
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Can't decide. I guess we'll have to keep them both.

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12-27-2008, 11:37 AM
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Not even close. Souray hands downs, and that's NOT a slight on Vis.

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12-27-2008, 11:49 AM
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No way, PJO in a thread acting superior to everybody else in it? Even a post where he tries to act superior to GMs?

Anyways, I voted for Souray. I watch the games, and I don't need somebody who doesn't to make up stats and tell me I know nothing about hockey.

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12-27-2008, 11:53 AM
  #22
Bryanbryoil
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PunjabiOil View Post
Compare Souray's GAON/60 numbers whilst he was paired with Visnovsky, and the ask yourself why they enlarged subsequent to being separated from Visnovsky.

The fact that Visnovsky sustained his astute defensive numbers illustrates that he drove the bus for the first 15-20 games.



Your loss



It would be prudent, as many GMs (like yourself and the "standard" fan) grossly overrate the "sexy" numbers to trade Souray. I would be looking at offering Souray, Nilsson, Schremp, and Brule for Jay Bouweemeester (contract extended, of course).
First off, Souray's worth to this team is greater. In the locker room as an offensive weapon, and as a physical player.

That said, Lubo is a fine player and I'd like to keep both players as both are exceptional hockey players.

As for your trade proposal that is FAR more than we gave up or got for Pronger. If I were Fla, I'd be all over that deal. Any sane GM would, especially if Bouwmeester doesn't want to resign there.

If anything it would be Souray and ONE of those players. At the moment, I prefer Souray's skillset to Bouwmeester's. Somebody has to score the goals on this team.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoneman89 View Post
Not even close. Souray hands downs, and that's NOT a slight on Vis.
Agreed, nothing against Lubo, but Souray is the man.

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Old
12-27-2008, 11:55 AM
  #23
copperblue99
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souray, toughness and shot...wish oilers have this nyemi from sweedish jr team

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12-27-2008, 11:56 AM
  #24
Bryanbryoil
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Originally Posted by dashingsilverfox View Post
Oh no you diin't DSF, a popcorn reference???

"I laugh at those that buy the buttered popcorn, I bring my own butter, my microwave, my coffee mug, and my generator to the theatre" "I melt my own butter, Land 'O Lakes *****!!!"

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12-27-2008, 11:57 AM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PunjabiOil View Post
I suppose providing support for an opinion is acting superior



Countless GMs make poor decisions. Kevin Lowe has documented such.



Yet another, "LA-LA-LA-LA" support for an opinion.


And trading Souray, Schremp, Nilsson and Brule for Bouwmeester would somehow NOT be a poor decision?

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