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Old
12-27-2008, 05:44 PM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Pauser View Post
Maybe you should learn the game first. PK/PP doesn't affect ones +/-
My bad, i was trying to justify ice time, not +/-

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12-27-2008, 05:47 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tailspin711 View Post
My bad, i was trying to justify ice time, not +/-
Ohh okay. Still, according to Yahoo sports Taylor Pyatt is a -3 and Kyle Wellwood is a +6

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12-27-2008, 05:50 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by The_Pauser View Post
Ohh okay. Still, according to Yahoo sports Taylor Pyatt is a -3 and Kyle Wellwood is a +6
Regardless of what stats indicate, i am still not going to agrue that either player is more valueable than the other. Granted, i love Kyle Wellwood, i think he is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Pyatt is still good on the PK and thanks to his big body can be effective as a checker. However, i will agree that AV playing Pyatt in the top 6 is wrong, especially when a guy like Wellwood is playing in the bottom 6.
They are both very valuble to this team, however i feel neither of them are being used in the correct role when we are at even strength.

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12-27-2008, 05:51 PM
  #54
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12-27-2008, 05:52 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tailspin711 View Post
Regardless of what stats indicate, i am still not going to agrue that either player is more valueable than the other. Granted, i love Kyle Wellwood, i think he is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Pyatt is still good on the PK and thanks to his big body can be effective as a checker. However, i will agree that AV playing Pyatt in the top 6 is wrong, especially when a guy like Wellwood is playing in the bottom 6.
They are both very valuble to this team, however i feel neither of them are being used in the correct role when we are at even strength.
I agree with your sentiment.

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12-27-2008, 06:01 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by The_Pauser View Post
Ohh okay. Still, according to Yahoo sports Taylor Pyatt is a -3 and Kyle Wellwood is a +6
I don't understand how that's very relevant. I mean, are you trying to claim that Pyatt isn't as good defensively as Wellwood? That Wellwood is better offensively? Neither of those are real arguments, and both of them are pretty pointless, since they're both totally different types of players who are expected to do totally different things on the ice.

Yes, Wellwood produces well, and no, Pyatt isn't producing well, but using +/- is pretty ridiculous. Pyatt is logging regular shifts against pretty much anyone on the other team, while Wellwood is seeing pretty sheltered situations, or at least they're very obviously trying to get him in those situations.

The reason that Pyatt is used on the top 2 lines is pretty goddamned obvious. He's big, he stands in front of the net, he battles well on the boards, and he's fairly responsible defensively. Bernier has pretty much **** the bed so far this season, so Pyatt is really the only other guy like that. Neither Demitra nor Raymond bring those elements, and Kyle Wellwood certainly doesn't bring them either. Building a lineup involves more than just looking at point totals and slotting people in in descending order. It's pretty obvious that AV is trying to construct his lineup in a way that spreads out offensive and defensive ability throughout, because the team doesn't have enough home-run hitters to load up with power lines that can be counted on to make things happen every single time they hop over the boards.

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12-27-2008, 06:04 PM
  #57
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Sucks that they lose Pyatt now that they will finally be in a situation where he wouldn't need to be used in a top-6 role with Sundin's addition to the lineup in the near future. He's been great on the PK since being put in that role. Luckily it sounds like Johnson will be back sooner rather than later so hopefully the PK can hold the fort in the mean time.

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12-27-2008, 06:05 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MW View Post
I don't understand how that's very relevant. I mean, are you trying to claim that Pyatt isn't as good defensively as Wellwood? That Wellwood is better offensively? Neither of those are real arguments, and both of them are pretty pointless, since they're both totally different types of players who are expected to do totally different things on the ice.

Yes, Wellwood produces well, and no, Pyatt isn't producing well, but using +/- is pretty ridiculous. Pyatt is logging regular shifts against pretty much anyone on the other team, while Wellwood is seeing pretty sheltered situations, or at least they're very obviously trying to get him in those situations.

The reason that Pyatt is used on the top 2 lines is pretty goddamned obvious. He's big, he stands in front of the net, he battles well on the boards, and he's fairly responsible defensively. Bernier has pretty much **** the bed so far this season, so Pyatt is really the only other guy like that. Neither Demitra nor Raymond bring those elements, and Kyle Wellwood certainly doesn't bring them either. Building a lineup involves more than just looking at point totals and slotting people in in descending order. It's pretty obvious that AV is trying to construct his lineup in a way that spreads out offensive and defensive ability throughout, because the team doesn't have enough home-run hitters to load up with power lines that can be counted on to make things happen every single time they hop over the boards.
I'm proving that Wellwood isn't a defensive liability. And the stats speak for themselves. People who claim Wellwood has been horrible defensively haven't watched him closely this year and are pretty damn uninformed.

And Bernier has outplayed Pyatt IMO. What good is a big guy who doesn't dominate physically and hasn't put up a single point in 10 games? It's fricken ridiculous that he is in the top 6 yet isn't producing at all in that role.

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12-27-2008, 06:14 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by The_Pauser View Post
I'm proving that Wellwood isn't a defensive liability. And the stats speak for themselves. People who claim Wellwood has been horrible defensively haven't watched him closely this year and are pretty damn uninformed.

And Bernier has outplayed Pyatt IMO. What good is a big guy who doesn't dominate physically and hasn't put up a single point in 10 games? It's fricken ridiculous that he is in the top 6 yet isn't producing at all in that role.
Wellwood isn't awful defensively, but he's also not being thrown out there every game in a major even-strength role. He's undersized and doesn't really battle very well.

The good of a big guy like Pyatt is that he is good along the boards. He doesn't smash guys, but he's solid in the corners and along the wall, and he provides a big screen. Bernier makes a lot of dumb decisions that Pyatt doesn't. As much as Kesler and Burrows' transition type offensive game is better suited to Bernier, he's also on that line at least in part because they can cover up for him.

As I said before, this team is designed at the moment to get scoring from everywhere, and to have every line be fairly versatile. Taking Pyatt off of the second line in favour of Wellwood takes away a lot of versatility from that line. There's really no two ways about it.

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12-27-2008, 06:17 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MW View Post
Wellwood isn't awful defensively, but he's also not being thrown out there every game in a major even-strength role. He's undersized and doesn't really battle very well.

The good of a big guy like Pyatt is that he is good along the boards. He doesn't smash guys, but he's solid in the corners and along the wall, and he provides a big screen. Bernier makes a lot of dumb decisions that Pyatt doesn't. As much as Kesler and Burrows' transition type offensive game is better suited to Bernier, he's also on that line at least in part because they can cover up for him.

As I said before, this team is designed at the moment to get scoring from everywhere, and to have every line be fairly versatile. Taking Pyatt off of the second line in favour of Wellwood takes away a lot of versatility from that line. There's really no two ways about it.
Again, what good is a player who's decent on the boards if he cant produce? Is the name of the game to put up points or is it to win battles on the boards? Wellwood is playing a small role, yet producing. Based on that he should be rewarded with a larger role to produce more.

Bernier has a total of 3 giveaways all year. Doesn't seem to me like he's too big of a liability.

Taking Pyatt off the second line in favour of Wellwood makes that line more offensive. That's all it does, and the stats back it up.

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12-27-2008, 06:24 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by The_Pauser View Post
Again, what good is a player who's decent on the boards if he cant produce? Is the name of the game to put up points or is it to win battles on the boards? Wellwood is playing a small role, yet producing. Based on that he should be rewarded with a larger role to produce more.

Bernier has a total of 3 giveaways all year. Doesn't seem to me like he's too big of a liability.

Taking Pyatt off the second line in favour of Wellwood makes that line more offensive. That's all it does, and the stats back it up.
This is a ridiculous post. Pyatt's job on that line isn't to produce points, it's to take care of the other things so that the other guys on the line are free to concentrate on putting up points.

Bernier makes bad decisions, and is not as strong as Pyatt positionally, which is a big part of why he plays with the two best defensive forwards on the team. That's great that he doesn't have many giveaways. Let me know when there's a stat that keeps track of being out of position to allow plays to develop, or failing to clear the zone.

Your post sounds like great advice for my EHM07 game, but not like advice that I'd use for the real-life team that I coach.

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12-27-2008, 06:26 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MW View Post
This is a ridiculous post. Pyatt's job on that line isn't to produce points, it's to take care of the other things so that the other guys on the line are free to concentrate on putting up points.

Bernier makes bad decisions, and is not as strong as Pyatt positionally, which is a big part of why he plays with the two best defensive forwards on the team. That's great that he doesn't have many giveaways. Let me know when there's a stat that keeps track of being out of position to allow plays to develop, or failing to clear the zone.

Your post sounds like great advice for my EHM07 game, but not like advice that I'd use for the real-life team that I coach.
So you're saying its okay to have a player in your top 6 who doesn't produce points? That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Does this mean Mike Brown is going to sub in the top 6 in Pyatt's absence?

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12-27-2008, 06:31 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by The_Pauser View Post
So you're saying its okay to have a player in your top 6 who doesn't produce points? That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Does this mean Mike Brown is going to sub in the top 6 in Pyatt's absence?
Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying. Mike Brown is perfectly equivalent to Taylor Pyatt and brings exactly the same things to a line. Totally. Man, you got me. You're so clever. Actually, I'd go one further and put you on that second line, since neither you, nor Taylor Pyatt, produce many points in the NHL, so you're pretty much equivalent as hockey players.

If the Canucks were set up traditionally with 2 scoring lines, a checking line, and a line of guys who never get on the ice, then yeah, it would be ridiculous. They're not. The definitions are not as black and white on this team. Kesler and Burrows can probably be considered to be as much the second line group as Demitra and Raymond, offensively.

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12-27-2008, 06:36 PM
  #64
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To expand on that last bit, Kesler and Burrows combine for 0.3888888 even strength points per game, while Demitra and Raymond have 0.3387 even strength points per game. If, like Pauser is saying, statistical offensive production is the only thing that matters, then Kesler and Burrows are the anchor pair of the other top6 line, and Pyatt doesn't play on that line.

What the hell is wrong with that moron AV? Why isn't he playing Kesler, Burrows, and Demitra as the second line?


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Old
12-27-2008, 07:03 PM
  #65
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Pyatt's a good player, but a guy on pace for 23 points shouldn't be getting full time top 6 duty. No, Vancouver's lineup isn't rigidly defined in terms of 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th lines, but Pyatt's still got the 7th highest ice time for forwards in both Total TOI per game and Even Strength TOI per game.

Despite that ice time, he's tied for 14th on the team in points with Willie Mitchell. He might be good along the boards and in front of the net, but he hasn't been producing and his play hasn't led to his line mates producing.

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12-27-2008, 07:05 PM
  #66
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This is going to affect our pk for sure.

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12-27-2008, 08:38 PM
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a blessing in disguise. Im sick and tired of seeing him on the top 2 lines. You wanna know why we have trouble scoring? you guys have like Pyatt on the top 2 lines? Because he has more "toughness" then likes of Raymond, Bernier, Wellwood?

I never liked Pyatt as a PKer anyways.

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12-27-2008, 08:40 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by CCF23 View Post
Absolutely agree with this post. I think Pyatt is a great bottom 6 player and have no problem with him on the team. AV is the one that screws it up by putting him on the 2nd line.

If Pyatt was on the 4th line he'd be a great contributor to this team.
Yup, posters need to stop blaming Pyatt for AV's screwups - if AV puts Pyatt in net and he lets in 18 goals, should we blame AV or Pyatt?

Pyatt will be missed as a grinder and PK specialist who shows up just about every game.

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12-27-2008, 09:56 PM
  #69
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just look at which posters are flaming Pyatt, and which posters can appreciate what he brings, even in a top 6 role. that pretty much decides the argument.

Pyatt is going to be missed. a lot of what he does doesn't show up on the stat sheet. he creates room for his linemates, generates turnovers and puck possession, and is one of our best defensive forwards.

I can't believe we have another broken foot. sheesh.

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12-27-2008, 09:59 PM
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A late Christmas gift =)

Somehow I doubt this is sarcasm in which case it's pretty damn sick.

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12-27-2008, 10:06 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by opendoor View Post
Pyatt's a good player, but a guy on pace for 23 points shouldn't be getting full time top 6 duty. No, Vancouver's lineup isn't rigidly defined in terms of 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th lines, but Pyatt's still got the 7th highest ice time for forwards in both Total TOI per game and Even Strength TOI per game.

Despite that ice time, he's tied for 14th on the team in points with Willie Mitchell. He might be good along the boards and in front of the net, but he hasn't been producing and his play hasn't led to his line mates producing.
I think part of this stems from Demitra's love affair with Pyatt at the beginning of the season, saying he reminded him of Tkachuk. Pyatt got quite a bit of icetime with Raymond and Demitra to begin with and then got shuffled down once Wellwood established himself/AV got the blender out.

I can't be arsed to go and look this up myself, but I don't believe that his 5 on 5/PP TOI has remained constant throughout the season, but rather it's fallen and risen as circumstances have dictated.

Maybe someone else who has been looking at this could yay or nay this notion.

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12-27-2008, 10:10 PM
  #72
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its simple. Pyatt isn't a top 6 player. Great Bottom 6. It's AV that's putting him there.

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12-27-2008, 10:32 PM
  #73
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I think his boards play is overrated. How often does he come out with the puck? and how often does he just give it away when he does? there were a few times last night where he was along the boards and was literally at a 90 degree angle with his head down and ended up losing the puck. He just jams the puck and hope someone on his team gets it, there's zero skill in that at all.

In his own zone he takes some weird angles to the point. If I was a d-man I would love to have him covering me. His strategy it to jam at the puck and hope it gets passed the d-man and this usually doesn't work. He does do a pretty good job at forcing the play to the outside on the PK though.


I agree that he is a solid bottom 6 player. But I think people overrate these areas because they need to find something he does well. He should not be on the top 2 lines on any team in the NHL ever. He should be in a checking role, continue to improve on the PK and if he can produce 20 points that's great.

Makes no sense to play him 15 minutes while his linemates suffer because he can't keep up and can't find them when he has the puck. How many 2-1 chances has he screwed up this year? at least 4 times he's been on a 2-1 where they don't even get a shot. The d-man will slide down and he will shoot it on the ice right into him with his head down.

Demitra is probably the happiest person right now, and everyone says Raymond doesn't use his linemates but it's pretty hard when it's Pyatt who is barely ever open.

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12-28-2008, 12:11 AM
  #74
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My biggest gripe with Pyatt is lack of physical play. He fights along the boards but not much more effectively than anyone else. I think a player like Hansen wins a lot more battles for the puck. Sometimes he will use his body to separate a player from the puck but just as often he stumbles and the player just skates away.

Moreover, Pyatt plays the game so as not to offend other players. Pyatt giving a big hit is an occasional event and I have never seen him play mean. If he had a mean streak he might be a hell of player.

Pyatt is very responsible on the back check and skates well enough to keep some pressure on the puck. But his awkwardness and his lack of anticipation make him ineffective offensively.

Pyatt will be missed to an extent. He is upgrade on a player like Isbister because he is a better skater. (although they are about equal in shooting and scoring) He is a legit NHL player and the Canucks need all the players they can get right now. However he is, as has been pointed out, a bottom six player who has been put into a situation that is too demanding.

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12-28-2008, 01:10 AM
  #75
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While you may be right that Pyatt doesn't win the puck any more than anyone else, on the PK he can eat up valuable seconds just using his body to delay the other team in fishing the puck out. He also has a huge wingspan and tips a lot of passes/shots (again he may not actually get the puck, but it costs the opposing PP time).

I'll agree though I would rather have had him on the 3rd line with Kes/Bur and Bernier on the 2nd with Raymond/Demitra, but that was going to end the second Sundin laces them up anyway.

Wellwood/Demitra/Raymond would be soft as butter so its hard to go with that regularly, so either Bernier or Pyatt needed to be there. Of course, Sundin fills that need much better.

Wellwood being on the fourth line (at least as far as reading a GDT) could change with Sundin or maybe not. With Johnson out someone has to centre that line and using Jaffray means someone important has to sit out (with Sundin in). Wellwood sees regular PP time and also spot duty on all three lines when a second centre for important face-offs is needed, so his 4th line duty is actually (and will continue to be) more than it appears.

With Johnson back and Sundin playing big on the 2nd line Wellwood may get regular duty on that line. But that most likely bumps Raymond rather than Demitra (although Demitra has been kind of floaty lately so maybe he gets demoted, but I doubt it, AV, like most coaches, gives preference to vets).

Hopefully Raymond will play with Kes/Bur because I think a fourth line of Hordichuk-Johnson-Bernier, while hurting Bernier's production could terrify opponents and Raymond is kind of wasted there. Bernier's a much better hitter than Pyatt and should play even bigger with Darcy on the other side.

It's unfortunate Pyatt's hurt, I really appreciate his play (for what he brings, again I don't think he is regular second line material either but I like him a lot in a PK/checking role) but it does give MG more time to make a trade and removes the need to trade away a forward at all. It was going to be crowded once Sundin (and Johnson) played with some kind of valuable asset sitting around doing nothing, but now the numbers are manageable again until Pyatt is back. At that point having everyone around for stretch-run/playoff insurance is a very good thing.

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