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How many of Brodeur's Vezinas did he deserve to win

View Poll Results: How many of Brodeur's Vezinas did he deserve to win
all 4 125 60.10%
3 of 4 44 21.15%
2 of 4 26 12.50%
less than 2 13 6.25%
Voters: 208. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
01-03-2009, 02:14 AM
  #51
Harrison Ford
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Originally Posted by Classic Devil View Post
The difference in their Sv% was .910 to .920. That's huge. And Brodeur faced 200 more shots against. You don't think that's enough to overcome a difference of 5 goals against (when it's pretty clear that the Devils defense last season, featuring the awesome combination of Martin, White, Mottau, Brookbank, Greene, and Oduya, all of them (except Martin) at their worst), 2 wins (when San Jose was a far superior offensive team, that's clear from other stats in this thread), and 2 shutouts?
ugh dont even get me started on our putrid defense. makes me want to throw up.

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01-03-2009, 02:18 AM
  #52
polmaniac932
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Stats were in Brodeur's favor, but everyone I know who watched both Nabokov and Brodeur play last year said that Nabokov was the better goaltender. Not enough to base who deserves to win off of, but it says something.

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01-03-2009, 02:19 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Gunnar Stahl 30 View Post
yea except non of those players are in san joses division. brodeur had to play the BEST offensive players in malkin, crosby (granted he was hurt), jagr, richards and brierre all 8 times
Getzlaf and Kopitar are. Plus throw in there Perry,Morrow,Richards,Doan,Frolov. Not as skilled Individualy, but SJ, ANA, and DAL had more points than 3 PIT,NJ,NYR team combo in the Atlantic pointwise last season.

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Old
01-03-2009, 02:20 AM
  #54
Classic Devil
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Originally Posted by Harrison Ford View Post
ugh dont even get me started on our putrid defense. makes me want to throw up.
Well, they've improved. I don't know what Oduya and Greene did to grow up from last season to this, but it makes a difference. Mottau is still Mottau, Brookbank doesn't play, Salvador gets lots of minutes, and White has somehow learned to deal with the fact that he can't see.

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01-03-2009, 02:22 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by polmaniac932 View Post
Stats were in Brodeur's favor, but everyone I know who watched both Nabokov and Brodeur play last year said that Nabokov was the better goaltender. Not enough to base who deserves to win off of, but it says something.
Apparently, everyone except the GMs.

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Old
01-03-2009, 02:22 AM
  #56
Gunnar Stahl 30
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Originally Posted by ArcticSharkie View Post
Getzlaf and Kopitar are. Plus throw in there Perry,Morrow,Richards,Doan,Frolov. Not as skilled Individualy, but SJ, ANA, and DAL had more points than 3 PIT,NJ,NYR team combo in the Atlantic pointwise last season.
none of those guys compare to the players i listed plus richards was only there for part of the season so add hossa to my list also. they may have had more points but the ATL teams had more GF

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01-03-2009, 02:26 AM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Classic Devil View Post
The difference in their Sv% was .910 to .920. That's huge. And Brodeur faced 200 more shots against. You don't think that's enough to overcome a difference of 5 goals against (when it's pretty clear that the Devils defense last season, featuring the awesome combination of Martin, White, Mottau, Brookbank, Greene, and Oduya, all of them (except Martin) at their worst), 2 wins (when San Jose was a far superior offensive team, that's clear from other stats in this thread), and 2 shutouts?
I'll give you the SV% and the Defensive difference. But the far superior offensive team? They were seperated by 16 goals (222 vs 206.) I'd hardly call that being far superior. Especially when your second highest scorer (Michalek 55 pts) is 41 behind your #1 (Joe 96.)

Proves how important Joe is...

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01-03-2009, 02:28 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Gunnar Stahl 30 View Post
none of those guys compare to the players i listed
I stated that your list was Individually better.

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01-03-2009, 02:29 AM
  #59
Gunnar Stahl 30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcticSharkie View Post
I'll give you the SV% and the Defensive difference. But the far superior offensive team? They were seperated by 16 goals (222 vs 206.) I'd hardly call that being far superior. Especially when your second highest scorer (Michalek 55 pts) is 41 behind your #1 (Joe 96.)

Proves how important Joe is...
the devils scored 206 goals and gave up 197 a difference of only 9, and san jose scored 222 and gave up 193, a difference of 29, that proves how important brodeur was. he played in much closer games and faced more shots per game

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01-03-2009, 02:30 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by ArcticSharkie View Post
I'll give you the SV% and the Defensive difference. But the far superior offensive team? They were seperated by 16 goals (222 vs 206.) I'd hardly call that being far superior. Especially when your second highest scorer (Michalek 55 pts) is 41 behind your #1 (Joe 96.)

Proves how important Joe is...
Two stats taken from earlier in this thread:

San Jose was shut out once last season.
San Jose scored one goal or less eleven times last season.

New Jersey was shut out eleven times last season.
New Jersey scored one goal or less twenty-six times last season.

When San Jose lost, Nabokov's stats were as follows:
3.22 GAA, .872 Sv%, 1.84 goals scored by SJ

When New Jersey lost, Brodeur's stats were as follows:
2.81 GAA, .897 Sv%, .97 goals scored by NJ

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01-03-2009, 02:34 AM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunnar Stahl 30 View Post
the devils scored 206 goals and gave up 197 a difference of only 9, and san jose scored 222 and gave up 193, a difference of 29, that proves how important brodeur was. he played in much closer games and faced more shots per game
Or it could mean the devils won by small margins and lost by bigger ones. Dont know for sure dont care to look.

Both were important to their teams. Brodeur deserved the Vezina as did nabokov but only one could win, lets move on.

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01-03-2009, 02:39 AM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Classic Devil View Post
Two stats taken from earlier in this thread:

San Jose was shut out once last season.
San Jose scored one goal or less eleven times last season.

New Jersey was shut out eleven times last season.
New Jersey scored one goal or less twenty-six times last season.

When San Jose lost, Nabokov's stats were as follows:
3.22 GAA, .872 Sv%, 1.84 goals scored by SJ

When New Jersey lost, Brodeur's stats were as follows:
2.81 GAA, .897 Sv%, .97 goals scored by NJ
Both were sub par in losses this proves. 1.84>.97 but neither should win you many games whatsoever. Both SV% are low because usually in losses the team played sub par and give up more scoring opportunities.

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Old
01-03-2009, 02:44 AM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Classic Devil View Post
Two stats taken from earlier in this thread:

San Jose was shut out once last season.
San Jose scored one goal or less eleven times last season.

New Jersey was shut out eleven times last season.
New Jersey scored one goal or less twenty-six times last season.

When San Jose lost, Nabokov's stats were as follows:
3.22 GAA, .872 Sv%, 1.84 goals scored by SJ

When New Jersey lost, Brodeur's stats were as follows:
2.81 GAA, .897 Sv%, .97 goals scored by NJ
Right it was actually 28 games they scored a goal or less.

How does reputation affect bias on HFBoards? If Brodeur's name was Hasek and he put up those numbers there would be no question who the winners were.

Oh the Devils scored less goals than any of the Sabres teams Hasek played for.

Look at the stats people Brodeur was 41-6-2 when they gave him more than one goal in offensive support.

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01-03-2009, 02:52 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by WarriorOfGandhi View Post
03, there wasn't really anyone else to compete with. Hasek had retired, Roy and Belfour played a dozen fewer games, Turco and Kipper only put in half a season.
I think he deserved them all, but I just had to clarify how Turco played only half a season in 03. In 2002-03 he played in 55 games (started 52) and in 03-04 he played in 73 (started 72). Neither of those looks like half a season to me.

That being said, I think it's only a matter of time before Nabokov gets the Vezina...although the way other players like Mason are playing right now, it might not be this season.

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01-03-2009, 03:03 AM
  #65
haakon84
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Originally Posted by ArcticSharkie View Post
Both were sub par in losses this proves. 1.84>.97 but neither should win you many games whatsoever. Both SV% are low because usually in losses the team played sub par and give up more scoring opportunities.
2.81 >>> 3.22
.897 >>> .872

No Brodeur's stats are sub-par and considering they are substantially better; I'd say Nabokov's numbers are bad.

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01-03-2009, 03:10 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by haakon84 View Post
2.81 >>> 3.22
.897 >>> .872

No Brodeur's stats are sub-par and considering they are substantially better; I'd say Nabokov's numbers are bad.
Yeah but whats the point? these numbers are in losses. A loss is a loss no matter how you look at it.

Might have missed it, but what were their numbers in wins?

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01-03-2009, 03:33 AM
  #67
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I love the word robbed.

Nabokov could have won it, but he clearly wasn't robbed, it was a tight race.

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01-03-2009, 03:47 AM
  #68
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2

He deserved the 2007 and 2008 Vezinas, as he was the best goalie in the league in both of those years.

Turco should have won the award in 2003, and Luongo in 2004. These first two were handed to him almost as career achievement awards, and were largely a result of Brodeur gaining popularity after the Olympic gold medal in 2002. Brodeur was not even a top 5 goalie in the league in either of those seasons.

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01-03-2009, 03:53 AM
  #69
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He deserved it in 07 and in 08 (though I would have given it to the other guy.

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01-03-2009, 04:09 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Classic Devil View Post
The difference in their Sv% was .910 to .920. That's huge. And Brodeur faced 200 more shots against.
That makes a lot of sense, but by that logic shouldn't Luongo have won in 2003-04? After all, the difference between .931 and .917 is even larger than the difference between .920 and .910, and Luongo faced 630 more shots against that season than Brodeur.

I can't believe that people think that last year was the one that was the most questionable - that was, in my view, the most deserving Vezina for Brodeur by far. If you want to debate awards, how about the 2003 and 2004 choices, when Brodeur finished both times outside of the top 10 in save percentage and out of the top 3 in GAA despite playing on one of the best defensive teams ever, a team with a great defensive coach in Pat Burns, great defence led by Niedermayer and Stevens, and backup goalies that combined for a 10-4-2 record, 1.21 GAA, .944 save percentage, and 4 shutouts in 18 games played.

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01-03-2009, 06:44 AM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcticSharkie View Post
Nabokov carried the team the entire season. He started 77 of 82 games in the regular season and all 13 in the playoffs. Dmitri Patzold and Thomas Greiss were horrible and Wilson could not afford to start either one because of Anaheim and Dallas staying close in the division the entire season. Yes, Boucher came at the deadline, but he wasnt much of a factor.

His SV% wasn't elite IMO because the team didnt give up too many perimeter shots that dont have much chance of going in and pad his percentage. A lot of goals scored on him were from defensive breakdowns near the net where he had no chance.
Do you just ignore what is said and then post what you are going to say anyway, despite your points already being disproven?

I already told you that:

1.Marty played in 77 games as well. No advantage to Nabokov there, so stop trying to make it one.
2.The SJ backups were absolutely no worse than the NJ backup. Their numbers are extremely similar
3. Post season games started is not a stat looked at for the Vezina
4.The shot quality stats that someone else posted suggest that no, Nabokov did not face a harder quality of shots than most other goaltenders
5.Did you just choose to ignore the absolute fact that Nabokov was blessed with far more goal support? Did your mind just block out the # of times each goalie received 0 or 1 goals to work with? You say things like "He carried the team" when it's just not true. Carrying a team is having your team score 0 or 1 goal 27 times and STILL winning a ton.

The Sharks were an awesome team last year with a very good goaltender. The Devils were a mediocore team last year with a great goaltender, and you can't change that.


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Old
01-03-2009, 06:47 AM
  #72
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All 4.

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01-03-2009, 07:19 AM
  #73
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3; Nabokhov should have won last year.

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01-03-2009, 07:27 AM
  #74
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All four, stop being bitter.

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01-03-2009, 08:57 AM
  #75
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I voted 3 of 4, but there's also a year when he was robbed, so that evens things out?

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