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How many of Brodeur's Vezinas did he deserve to win

View Poll Results: How many of Brodeur's Vezinas did he deserve to win
all 4 125 60.10%
3 of 4 44 21.15%
2 of 4 26 12.50%
less than 2 13 6.25%
Voters: 208. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
01-03-2009, 09:21 AM
  #76
Dennis Bonvie
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Originally Posted by Classic Devil View Post
The difference in their Sv% was .910 to .920. That's huge. And Brodeur faced 200 more shots against. You don't think that's enough to overcome a difference of 5 goals against (when it's pretty clear that the Devils defense last season, featuring the awesome combination of Martin, White, Mottau, Brookbank, Greene, and Oduya, all of them (except Martin) at their worst), 2 wins (when San Jose was a far superior offensive team, that's clear from other stats in this thread), and 2 shutouts?
I would agree here based on the save percentage and total shots.

This is the exact same reason I would argue Brodeur didn't deseve his first 2 vezinas as he wasn't even in the top 10 in the league in save percentage either year. He also faced less shots per game than any other goalie.

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01-03-2009, 01:06 PM
  #77
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2 of 4 seems about right.

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01-03-2009, 01:19 PM
  #78
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A big ZERO.
But he would have deserved to win one or two that he didn't won.

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Old
01-03-2009, 01:34 PM
  #79
TANK200
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
A big ZERO.
But he would have deserved to win one or two that he didn't won.
People keep saying this, but which other year was Brodeur the best goalie in the league?

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Old
01-03-2009, 02:57 PM
  #80
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He deserved all 4 Easily, and he deserved more, i thought he was robbed in previous years.

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Old
01-03-2009, 03:30 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by DevilsNBlueJays640 View Post
He deserved all 4 Easily, and he deserved more, i thought he was robbed in previous years.
I'm sorry to break it to you and others of the same opinion, but you are wrong. The Vezina trophy is not awarded to "the goaltender having played the most games in a given season". It is awarded to the goaltender who was the best during that season. Brodeur managed that "only" twice: in 2007 and 2008. The only year that he did not win but arguably could have is 1997, but IMO Hasek was the right choice that year.

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01-03-2009, 04:24 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by TANK200 View Post
I'm sorry to break it to you and others of the same opinion, but you are wrong. The Vezina trophy is not awarded to "the goaltender having played the most games in a given season". It is awarded to the goaltender who was the best during that season. Brodeur managed that "only" twice: in 2007 and 2008. The only year that he did not win but arguably could have is 1997, but IMO Hasek was the right choice that year.
Brodeur managed that "only twice: in 2007 and 2008 you say.
Funny i could have sworn that Brodeur won the Vezina 4 times.

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01-03-2009, 04:36 PM
  #83
Puck Farise
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Originally Posted by TANK200 View Post
I'm sorry to break it to you and others of the same opinion, but you are wrong. The Vezina trophy is not awarded to "the goaltender having played the most games in a given season". It is awarded to the goaltender who was the best during that season. Brodeur managed that "only" twice: in 2007 and 2008. The only year that he did not win but arguably could have is 1997, but IMO Hasek was the right choice that year.
Well, sorry to break it to you, but you (in fact) DO NOT know more than the NHL GM's when it comes to evaluating a goalie. You're wrong.

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Old
01-03-2009, 05:07 PM
  #84
TheDevilMadeMe
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Originally Posted by WarriorOfGandhi View Post

04, Luongo should've won it. I hate to use the "he's on a bad team" cliché but Luongo kept ahead of Brodeur the entire season with the exception of the win-loss tally, which was more a reflection of the respective teams they played behind.
Stats for 2003-04
Brodeur: 38 wins, 2.03 GAA, .917 SV%, 11 shutouts
Luongo: 25 wins, 2.42 GAA, .931 SV%, 7 shutouts.

Your statement is false. The only stat Luongo does better in is save %.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 01-03-2009 at 05:14 PM.
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Old
01-03-2009, 05:23 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Stats for 2003-04
Brodeur: 38 wins, 2.03 GAA, .917 SV%, 11 shutouts
Luongo: 25 wins, 2.42 GAA, .931 SV%, 7 shutouts.

Your statement is false. The only stat Luongo does better in is save %.
Yeah but that would also be true last year in reverse of Nabokov and Brodeur. Nabokov had more wins, a better GAA, more shutouts, and Brodeur only had the better SV%. The gap between the Panthers and Devils that year was way more than the gap between the Sharks and Devils last year. The Panthers were just a horrible team in the 03-04 season and Luongo to keep a SV% above 93% with such a horrible team that gave up tons of shots and had horrible defense should have won him the Vezina hands down IMO. If it wasnt then there is no way Brodeur should have won over Nabokov last year based only on SV%. That is why there is absolutely no way I could see applying the same standards Brodeur deserving both of those Vezinas, 1 of the 2 at most if that.

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01-03-2009, 05:26 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by DevilsNBlueJays640 View Post
i thought he was robbed in previous years.



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Old
01-03-2009, 05:29 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Dr Quincy View Post
Do you just ignore what is said and then post what you are going to say anyway, despite your points already being disproven?

I already told you that:

1.Marty played in 77 games as well. No advantage to Nabokov there, so stop trying to make it one.
2.The SJ backups were absolutely no worse than the NJ backup. Their numbers are extremely similar
3. Post season games started is not a stat looked at for the Vezina
4.The shot quality stats that someone else posted suggest that no, Nabokov did not face a harder quality of shots than most other goaltenders
5.Did you just choose to ignore the absolute fact that Nabokov was blessed with far more goal support? Did your mind just block out the # of times each goalie received 0 or 1 goals to work with? You say things like "He carried the team" when it's just not true. Carrying a team is having your team score 0 or 1 goal 27 times and STILL winning a ton.

The Sharks were an awesome team last year with a very good goaltender. The Devils were a mediocore team last year with a great goaltender, and you can't change that.


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Have you even read the fact that I've said TWICE that they both deserved it?

And yes, Nabokov did carry the team. Who would have picked up the slack if he got hurt before march? Patzold? Greiss? They were horrible and it forced Nabokov to play every night. Which means he was relied to be there every night Nicked up, sore,whatever. The same could be said for Brodeur.

Im arguing for the fact that people like you say Nabokov didnt carry the team because of his average Sv% and lack of goal support for Brodeur (which has nothing to do with nabokov of SJ.)They Both deserved the award, they both carried their teams, and Brodeur won because his numbers were better. Never made an issue of it so quit trying to say I have.

Plus the goal differential between both teams was only 16 goals. 16! which is less than 1 goal every five games.(which is not far more goal support.) Quit trying to make it look like San Jose was prolific offensively last season. They weren't. Joe was a stud and that was about it.

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Old
01-03-2009, 05:34 PM
  #88
Gunnar Stahl 30
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Originally Posted by nashfan24 View Post
Yeah but that would also be true last year in reverse of Nabokov and Brodeur. Nabokov had more wins, a better GAA, more shutouts, and Brodeur only had the better SV%. The gap between the Panthers and Devils that year was way more than the gap between the Sharks and Devils last year. The Panthers were just a horrible team in the 03-04 season and Luongo to keep a SV% above 93% with such a horrible team that gave up tons of shots and had horrible defense should have won him the Vezina hands down IMO. If it wasnt then there is no way Brodeur should have won over Nabokov last year based only on SV%. That is why there is absolutely no way I could see applying the same standards Brodeur deserving both of those Vezinas, 1 of the 2 at most if that.
yea well look at brodeurs save percentage from that year compared to nabokovs from last year. a .910 sv percentage should in this day and age should not allow someone to get a vezina. especially when the rest of teh stats are compareable and the competition/defense are lopsided

why all the brodeur bashing threads? i dont get it, why arent there any threads praising his greatness like there are for malkin, ovechkin and crosby?

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01-03-2009, 05:37 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Gunnar Stahl 30 View Post
. especially when the rest of teh stats are compareable and the competition/defense are lopsided
Competition? no way. The west was and is still the tougher of the two conferences.

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01-03-2009, 05:40 PM
  #90
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Competition? no way. The west was and is still the tougher of the two conferences.
not offensivley, the east had much more talent offensively than the west. especially the pac. what makes the west so good is the defenses. look at them compared to the east. ANA, DET, CAL etc. but that doesnt help nabokovs case

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Old
01-03-2009, 06:31 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Gunnar Stahl 30 View Post

why all the brodeur bashing threads? i dont get it, why arent there any threads praising his greatness like there are for malkin, ovechkin and crosby?
Notice that the "did Lidstrom deserve his awards?" thread was locked after 3 votes. Guess Devils fans are just tougher than most fans on hfboards, at least the apparently super-sensitive Wings fans.

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01-03-2009, 06:56 PM
  #92
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I seriously don't get it, I have not seen 1 post in my life showing direct evidence that Brodeur didn't deserve his vezina. Hell, I know Brodeur deserves to have at least 6 and 2 harts, but the NHL would rather give it to the goalie on a team thats big to the market or a player with the most points.

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01-03-2009, 07:35 PM
  #93
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I think he deserved them all, but I just had to clarify how Turco played only half a season in 03. In 2002-03 he played in 55 games (started 52) and in 03-04 he played in 73 (started 72). Neither of those looks like half a season to me.
I was only referring to his 2003 win (hence the "03"), and 55 games isn't half a season but it's not enough to be credited with serious Vezina voting, in my opinion. Turco was very good, but only played in two out of every three games.

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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Stats for 2003-04
Brodeur: 38 wins, 2.03 GAA, .917 SV%, 11 shutouts
Luongo: 25 wins, 2.42 GAA, .931 SV%, 7 shutouts.

Your statement is false. The only stat Luongo does better in is save %.
Plug this into your calculator: I'm not talking about stats, I'm talking about watching them play. I watched them both play (granted, for only about 15-20 games) with my own eyes. Luongo was better.

-------

On an unrelated note, the amount of robbery that this thread implicates is going on the NHL is amazing. How is it the FBI hasn't started an investigation about the sheer degree of larceny involved in the process?

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01-03-2009, 07:44 PM
  #94
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Move along.
More like:


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01-03-2009, 07:50 PM
  #95
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Notice how right when Clemmenson began getting some media attention, fans began making Brodeur hate threads and talking about how the system makes him look good.

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01-03-2009, 07:57 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by trapper View Post
Brodeur managed that "only twice: in 2007 and 2008 you say.
Funny i could have sworn that Brodeur won the Vezina 4 times.
Yes, he did. But his first two Vezina trophies were basically "most games played" awards. Only in these past two seasons was he actually the best goalie in the league.



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Originally Posted by BigE7 View Post
Well, sorry to break it to you, but you (in fact) DO NOT know more than the NHL GM's when it comes to evaluating a goalie. You're wrong.
I will use save percentage as a means of comparing Brodeur to the best goalies in the league in 2003 and 2004. I use this statistic because it is the one that goaltenders individually have the most control over.


2002-2003
Turco's Sv%: .932
Brodeur's Sv%: .914

If both goalies had faced the same number of shots that year (say 2000, since it is a reasonable amount), Turco would have allowed 36 fewer goals than brodeur over the course of the season. Pretty big difference.


2003-2004
Luongo's Sv%: .931
Brodeur's Sv%: .917

If both goalies had faced the same number of shots that year (again assume 2000 shots), Luongo would have allowed 28 fewer goals than brodeur over the course of the season. Again, pretty big difference.


It's clear that both Turco and Luongo were far superior to Brodeur in the years that he won his first two Vezina trophies. Just because Turco only played 55 games in 2002-2003 and Luongo was on the worst team in the league in 2003-2004 does not mean that Brodeur was better.

I'm not going to say that I know more than the NHL GMs, but I will say that they were wrong in both of their selections. Just so you know, being knowledgable does not necessarily make you correct. Why do you think there are so many poorly managed teams in the NHL?

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01-03-2009, 08:01 PM
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TANK200 View Post
Yes, he did. But his first two Vezina trophies were basically "most games played" awards. Only in these past two seasons was he actually the best goalie in the league.

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01-03-2009, 08:13 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by WarriorOfGandhi View Post


Plug this into your calculator: I'm not talking about stats, I'm talking about watching them play. I watched them both play (granted, for only about 15-20 games) with my own eyes. Luongo was better.

-------

?
I was responding to a post where you made an erroneous assertion about statistics and corrected it. Plug it into your own calculator, please.

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01-03-2009, 08:16 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by TANK200 View Post
Yes, he did. But his first two Vezina trophies were basically "most games played" awards. Only in these past two seasons was he actually the best goalie in the league.





I will use save percentage as a means of comparing Brodeur to the best goalies in the league in 2003 and 2004. I use this statistic because it is the one that goaltenders individually have the most control over.


2002-2003
Turco's Sv%: .932
Brodeur's Sv%: .914

If both goalies had faced the same number of shots that year (say 2000, since it is a reasonable amount), Turco would have allowed 36 fewer goals than brodeur over the course of the season. Pretty big difference.


2003-2004
Luongo's Sv%: .931
Brodeur's Sv%: .917

If both goalies had faced the same number of shots that year (again assume 2000 shots), Luongo would have allowed 28 fewer goals than brodeur over the course of the season. Again, pretty big difference.


It's clear that both Turco and Luongo were far superior to Brodeur in the years that he won his first two Vezina trophies. Just because Turco only played 55 games in 2002-2003 and Luongo was on the worst team in the league in 2003-2004 does not mean that Brodeur was better.

I'm not going to say that I know more than the NHL GMs, but I will say that they were wrong in both of their selections. Just so you know, being knowledgable does not necessarily make you correct. Why do you think there are so many poorly managed teams in the NHL?
Lots of "ifs" in this post. Unfortunately for your argument, NHL GMs care more about results than hypotheticals.

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Old
01-03-2009, 09:17 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by ArcticSharkie View Post
Have you even read the fact that I've said TWICE that they both deserved it?
Of course I read it, and that's why I'm disagreeing with you. If one guy outplays the other and does it with less support from his teammates than he deserves it more than the other. Sorry, that's just the way it goes.

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