HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk Trade rumors, transactions, and free agent talk. Rumors must contain the word RUMOR in post title. Proposals must contain the word PROPOSAL in post title.

Philadelphia-Atlanta

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-02-2009, 11:24 AM
  #26
mja
Negative Creep
 
mja's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,000
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruinsfan1 View Post
That doesn't change the fact... Parent, a late first, a late 2nd, and Hartnell will land you nowhere near Kovalchuk.
I don't necessarily agree or disagree with what you are saying here, but that isn't my beef with you anyways.

My beef with you was calling Knuble and Hartnell salary dumps.

mja is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-02-2009, 11:24 AM
  #27
Duponttime*
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 511
vCash: 500
To Atlanta: Ryan Parent, James vanRiemsdyk, Scott Hartnell, Mike Knuble(salary), 3rd 09

It's actually an underpayment by the Flyers. Knuble and Hartnell would be worthless on the Thrashers.

Try Ryan Parent, James vanRiemsdyk and Giroux for Kovalchuk. That makes a lot more sense. JVR is a heck of a prospect but the odds he will be better than Kovalchuk are slim to none. You would have to give them another quality offensive prospect. Giroux fits the bill.

Duponttime* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-02-2009, 11:25 AM
  #28
Nikita Filatov*
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Country: United States
Posts: 6,301
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Nikita Filatov*
Quote:
Originally Posted by JCiarniello View Post
A solid prospect, a young, effective roster player and a 1st round pick seems to be the going rate for star players.

I guess Philly could throw in another prospect. But I think Philly can get Kovalchuk without giving up JVR.
JVR or Giroux would have to be involved IMO. Then again, this is all moot, because philly would **** themselves cap wise.

Nikita Filatov* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-02-2009, 11:26 AM
  #29
Nikita Filatov*
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Country: United States
Posts: 6,301
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Nikita Filatov*
Quote:
Originally Posted by mja View Post
I don't necessarily agree or disagree with what you are saying here, but that isn't my beef with you anyways.

My beef with you was calling Knuble and Hartnell salary dumps.
Knuble is a salary dump. He's being thrown in to make the salaries equal... Same with Hartnell. That, IMO, makes you a salary dump.

Nikita Filatov* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-02-2009, 11:33 AM
  #30
mja
Negative Creep
 
mja's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,000
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruinsfan1 View Post
Knuble is a salary dump. He's being thrown in to make the salaries equal... Same with Hartnell. That, IMO, makes you a salary dump.
Now you are back to calling Hartnell a salary dump when you already conceded he wasn't.

Do you think Boston moving Michael Ryder would be a salary dump?

Knuble isn't a salary dump either. His cap hit is under 3 million. He has terrific trade value and there are frankly a lot of teams that would love to get him in a deadline deal.

In a cap world, matching salaries is just a fact of life when making trades, much like in the NBA. Matching up salaries doesn't make the players salary dumps.

A salary dump is a guy making way too much money for what he does and a team dumping him off for whatever they can get for him. This describes neither Knuble nor Hartnell.

mja is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-02-2009, 11:35 AM
  #31
Nikita Filatov*
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Country: United States
Posts: 6,301
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Nikita Filatov*
Quote:
Originally Posted by mja View Post
Do you think Boston moving Michael Ryder would be a salary dump?

Knuble isn't a salary dump either. His cap hit is under 3 million. He has terrific trade value and there are frankly a lot of teams that would love to get him in a deadline deal.

In a cap world, matching salaries is just a fact of life when making trades, much like in the NBA. Matching up salaries doesn't make the players salary dumps.

A salary dump is a guy making way too much money for what he does and a team dumping him off for whatever they can get for him. This describes neither Knuble nor Hartnell.
I think you and I have much, much different opinions on what a salary dump is. If a player is moved to create cap space.... It's a salary dump plain and simple. If Ryder was moved because of SALARY IMPLICATIONS, then yes, he would be a salary dump.

Nikita Filatov* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-02-2009, 12:03 PM
  #32
Snotbubbles
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,488
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duponttime View Post
To Atlanta: Ryan Parent, James vanRiemsdyk, Scott Hartnell, Mike Knuble(salary), 3rd 09

It's actually an underpayment by the Flyers. Knuble and Hartnell would be worthless on the Thrashers.

Try Ryan Parent, James vanRiemsdyk and Giroux for Kovalchuk. That makes a lot more sense. JVR is a heck of a prospect but the odds he will be better than Kovalchuk are slim to none. You would have to give them another quality offensive prospect. Giroux fits the bill.
LOL! That's probably their three top prospects. What team would give up their top 3 prospects for an UFA?

Snotbubbles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-02-2009, 12:24 PM
  #33
Kaktus*
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: PA
Posts: 22,389
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duponttime View Post
To Atlanta: Ryan Parent, James vanRiemsdyk, Scott Hartnell, Mike Knuble(salary), 3rd 09

It's actually an underpayment by the Flyers. Knuble and Hartnell would be worthless on the Thrashers.

Try Ryan Parent, James vanRiemsdyk and Giroux for Kovalchuk. That makes a lot more sense. JVR is a heck of a prospect but the odds he will be better than Kovalchuk are slim to none. You would have to give them another quality offensive prospect. Giroux fits the bill.
JVR is top 5 prospect in NHL and Giroux is top 30 prospect in NHL. Both have 1st line potential 2-3 years from now. Soon NYR will be defending against Hartnell, Richards, Gagne, Carter, Giroux and JVR. Good luck.

Instead, why don't you continue to prove that Fritsche is worth 2nd round pick and how much talent he has. You were doing so good.


Last edited by Kaktus*: 01-02-2009 at 12:36 PM.
Kaktus* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-02-2009, 12:26 PM
  #34
PlantersOye
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Country: United States
Posts: 972
vCash: 500
What if JVR turns out to be a huge prospect for the Flyers and is worth just Kovalchuk alone? I would say that until we see him in the NHL, then we can determine if the trade equals out. Other then that, this is the best Kovalchuk trade I've seen as of now on HF Boards.

PlantersOye is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-02-2009, 12:27 PM
  #35
GKJ
Global Moderator
Entertainment
 
GKJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Do not trade plz
Country: United States
Posts: 109,993
vCash: 5792
Quote:
Originally Posted by BiLLY_ShOE1721 View Post
Look at how lethal a lineup we could have...

I look at the lethal lineup we already have and would say that removing two players from that lineup would do more harm than good.

GKJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-02-2009, 12:29 PM
  #36
PlantersOye
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Country: United States
Posts: 972
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
I look at the lethal lineup we already have and would say that removing two players from that lineup would do more harm than good.
Exactly what I was thinking. I'd rather have solid lines than take away from a line to add one good (great) player on a line.

PlantersOye is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-02-2009, 01:36 PM
  #37
RJ8812
Gunner Stahl #9
 
RJ8812's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Sudbury
Country: Canada
Posts: 24,754
vCash: 769
The Flyers arent going to me in the mix for Kovy if he becomes available. They don't need Kovy to make a cup run....they need to improve their defense and a consistent goalie

RJ8812 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-02-2009, 04:09 PM
  #38
Peter Sidorkiewicz
Kovalchuk Army
 
Peter Sidorkiewicz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 3,706
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JCiarniello View Post
I guess Philly could throw in another prospect. But I think Philly can get Kovalchuk without giving up JVR.
Typical deluded Flyers fan.

Peter Sidorkiewicz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-02-2009, 04:27 PM
  #39
supeg*
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 244
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BiLLY_ShOE1721 View Post
Just imagine what the Philadelphia offense would look like. A basically impossible scenario yes, but just think...

To Philadelphia: Ilya Kovalchuk,

To Atlanta: Ryan Parent, James vanRiemsdyk, Scott Hartnell, Mike Knuble(salary), 3rd 09

Philadelphia gets the second best goal scorer in the NHL to go along with the 3rd best goal scorer. Atlanta gets a very good young defenseman who going forward would form 3/4 of a good top 4 in Bogosian, Parent, and Enstrom. They also get the best LW drafted prospect in the NHL in vanRiemsdyk who will be coming to the NHL in 09-10 who has first line potential written all over him. They also get a very good second line energy player who is an extremely valuable player to a team going forward and is signed for another 4 years. Knuble has to go because of salary reasons. And a pick in a deep draft. Look at how lethal a lineup we could have...

Kovalchuk-Richards-Briere
Gagne-Carter-Giroux
Upshall-Metropolit-Lupul
Cote-Powe-Asham

Timonen-Vaananen
Coburn-Carle
Jones-Alberts

I know this is basically impossible and kind of non-logical but how does the value look for each team?
Um, Since when is Kovalchuk the second best goal scorer in the league? And you said he will join the third best, who is that? Carter is 1st this year in goals, but a good 1/3 of a year would not rank him the third best goal scorer...

supeg* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-02-2009, 04:56 PM
  #40
thedjpd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: San Jose, CA
Country: United States
Posts: 2,682
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by supeg93 View Post
Um, Since when is Kovalchuk the second best goal scorer in the league? And you said he will join the third best, who is that? Carter is 1st this year in goals, but a good 1/3 of a year would not rank him the third best goal scorer...
Kovalchuk is the second best goal scorer in the league. This much is not really arguable, I'm not sure why it is. A sample of 30 games isn't evidence.

Regardless, the Flyers can't move Hartnell and Knuble. If the deal were to go down, Lupul would replace Hartnell as otherwise the Flyers become really soft.

And the Flyers would probably add slightly more and look for Lehtonen or Pavelec back.

I'd say JVR, Lupul, Parent, Knuble and a pick (arguable on which), for Lehtonen + Kovalchuk, if anything.

thedjpd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-02-2009, 05:16 PM
  #41
Nikita Filatov*
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Country: United States
Posts: 6,301
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Nikita Filatov*
Quote:
Originally Posted by thedjpd View Post

I'd say JVR, Lupul, Parent, Knuble and a pick (arguable on which), for Lehtonen + Kovalchuk, if anything.


The only way ATL touches this is if the pick is guarenteed to be #1 for 2 straight years. Other wise, Atlanta trades 2 franchise players for an aging player, 2 good prospects, and an overpaid 3rd liner. That's just not going to happen.

Nikita Filatov* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-02-2009, 05:16 PM
  #42
Talentless Practise*
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 5,244
vCash: 500
So, Lupul, Smid, 1st and a conditional 1st (for winning a cup ffs) gets you Pronger signed for 4 years but it takes Hartnell, JVR, Parent, Knuble, 3rd to get Kovalchuk for one year?

Edit. Bruinsfan1, you are aware that demeaning Flyers players doesn't actually make them lose any trade value, aren't you?

Talentless Practise* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-02-2009, 05:29 PM
  #43
thedjpd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: San Jose, CA
Country: United States
Posts: 2,682
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruinsfan1 View Post


The only way ATL touches this is if the pick is guarenteed to be #1 for 2 straight years. Other wise, Atlanta trades 2 franchise players for an aging player, 2 good prospects, and an overpaid 3rd liner. That's just not going to happen.
Seriously, I think your values are messed up. Who else is going to offer more?

No team is going to gut their team for Kovalchuk - if he's going to be traded, that's what he's going to get.

Knuble is a dump but still will put up 25 goals this year. For a team that's awfully short on decent wingers, you sure seem to have some high expectations on what kind of wingers you think are 'quality.'

You don't get a superstar back for a superstar - it hasn't happened unless the circumstances are extreme (i.e., Heatley/Hossa).
Lupul an overpaid third liner? Lupul has 30-40 goal potential, and will hit 30 this season. No, he's not Kovalchuk, but he'll put up 30 easily with more icetime.

Since when is Lehtonen a franchise player? Lehtonen had signed a 1 year deal this season to prove he was worth the goalie of the future tag but he's missed half the season, to the point where Atlanta fans are wanting to be rid of him as well. Your case is even worse if it's Pavelec we're talking about, because now we're only talking potential.

The Thrashers are my second favorite team, and Kovalchuk is my favorite player leaguewide - but I'm pretty objective in my assessment.

No playoff team is going to deal valuable roster players - because they'll need those players to make their run. The point is to add to the team with Kovalchuk, not gut your team for him.

The package offered was way more than what Hossa got - granted, he was UFA the same season - but also tended to be regarded higher by a lot of people.

JVR >>>>> Esposito
Lupul/Hartnell >> Armstrong
Parent > Christensen (who seems to be busting... again)
1st = 1st

I'll also add - if you're expecting not to take a dump from a team looking to acquire a player like Kovalchuk, then you're going to be sorely disappointed. A team that wants to acquire him wants him to make a run - meaning, they are likely already towards the top of the cap limit. Salary has to be included the other way. No way around it.

Personally, I think you're out in left field, but to each their own.


Last edited by thedjpd: 01-02-2009 at 05:34 PM.
thedjpd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-02-2009, 05:36 PM
  #44
Nikita Filatov*
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Country: United States
Posts: 6,301
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Nikita Filatov*
Quote:
Originally Posted by thedjpd View Post
Seriously, I think your values are messed up. Who else is going to offer more?

No team is going to gut their team for Kovalchuk - if he's going to be traded, that's what he's going to get.

Knuble is a dump but still will put up 25 goals this year. For a team that's awfully short on decent wingers, you sure seem to have some high expectations on what kind of wingers you think are 'quality.'

You don't get a superstar back for a superstar - it hasn't happened unless the circumstances are extreme (i.e., Heatley/Hossa).
Lupul an overpaid third liner? Lupul has 30-40 goal potential, and will hit 30 this season. No, he's not Kovalchuk, but he'll put up 30 easily with more icetime.

Since when is Lehtonen a franchise player? Lehtonen had signed a 1 year deal this season to prove he was worth the goalie of the future tag but he's missed half the season, to the point where Atlanta fans are wanting to be rid of him as well. Your case is even worse if it's Pavelec we're talking about, because now we're only talking potential.

The Thrashers are my second favorite team, and Kovalchuk is my favorite player leaguewide - but I'm pretty objective in my assessment.

No playoff team is going to deal valuable roster players - because they'll need those players to make their run. The point is to add to the team with Kovalchuk, not gut your team for him.

The package offered was way more than what Hossa got - granted, he was UFA the same season - but also tended to be regarded higher by a lot of people.

JVR >>>>> Esposito
Lupul/Hartnell >> Armstrong
Parent > Christensen (who seems to be busting... again)
1st = 1st

I'll also add - if you're expecting not to take a dump from a team looking to acquire a player like Kovalchuk, then you're going to be sorely disappointed. A team that wants to acquire him wants him to make a run - meaning, they are likely already towards the top of the cap limit. Salary has to be included the other way. No way around it.
I'd say Kovy>Hossa alone. Adding Lehtonen makes this a laugher. Lehtonen is and RFA and Kovy still has another year left. You want Kovy? Keep adding, you're not getting him for that.

Nikita Filatov* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-02-2009, 05:46 PM
  #45
RoyBoyCoy
Habs and Rugby
 
RoyBoyCoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Lennoxville, QC
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,090
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrindamoursNose View Post
JVR is a future franchise LW...I'd say he'll do for that
I would go THAT far. I think that the word franchise gets thrown around way too much around here. It's very early to call him franchise, and I for one would be surprised if he ever is franchise.

RoyBoyCoy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-02-2009, 05:48 PM
  #46
devilinto
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Country: Canada
Posts: 973
vCash: 500
He looked like **** during the WJC!

devilinto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-02-2009, 08:22 PM
  #47
BillyShoe1721
Terriers
 
BillyShoe1721's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 16,692
vCash: 8400
Send a message via AIM to BillyShoe1721
Quote:
Originally Posted by KINGSFANINTO View Post
He looked like **** during the WJC!
How many times have we been over this?

BillyShoe1721 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-02-2009, 09:22 PM
  #48
BrindamoursNose
Registered User
 
BrindamoursNose's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,782
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kostitsyn3 View Post
I would go THAT far. I think that the word franchise gets thrown around way too much around here. It's very early to call him franchise, and I for one would be surprised if he ever is franchise.
I guess it goes by the definition of franchise from person to person. Will he be as good as Kovie? I'm thinking no. But will he put up 70 points minimum every year? I do think so.

BrindamoursNose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-03-2009, 01:52 PM
  #49
captainpaxil
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Country: United States
Posts: 2,179
vCash: 500
in the original deal philly sacrifices depth and grittiness to take an aggregate loss in goals. along with giving up serious weight in prospects. they may get the best player but it doesnt make them a better team.

kovalchuk is an elite scoring winger. philly would want to bring him in to upgrade one of thier scoring wingers. one of them would be the 1st piece in any deal. atlanta has no interest in knuble as hes older and a free agent so that means hartnell, lupul or gagne. both hartnell and gagne have no trade clauses (which they could waive) so for arguments sake lets use lupul.

joffery lupul is a 25 year old 2nd line winger who has yet to find the consistency to fulfill his 1st line potential.

you then add the picks and prospects to fill the gap between lupul and kovvie.

contract:
lupuls contract is cheaper now and next year picks up on the long term. kovalchuk is a free agent after next year and will have high salary demands. result conditional 1st if kovie resigns in 2010

the talent gap:
atlanta is downgrading from a consitent 50 goal scorer to an inconsitent 30goal scorer with potential. its going to take one of the two flyers bluechip prospects jvr or giroux. with kovie in the sytem it allows the flyers to move giroux as they would compete for the same spot in the lineup. knuble is on the way out with jvr the heir apparent for his spot.

the superstar tax
kovie is a legit superstar in the league and such players usually by just being who they are command an addition of mid level players or prospects. id go so far as to say 1 second tier prospect (nodl or parent) and one mid level (marshall or bartulis)

the salary cap
having addresses talent value we come to the salary cap and contract value. as the flyers are taking more back in salary they now get to say "here eat this money" any talent at all related to said contract is a bonus. kovalchuks contract runs this year and next so the length of the dump should be similar. if rumors of rathje wanting to play were to resurface id put him here, instead i present randy jones . otherwise the flyers could look elsewhere to relieve cap pressure and recieve a return.

hartnell would be a similar deal though probably without the second tier guy and gagne takes the blue chipper off the table. a combo of knuble and jvr would follow down but i dont think it works for atlanta. aside from that i dont see anything that works for the flyers aside from involving briere which would be more of a star for star deal.

captainpaxil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-03-2009, 02:50 PM
  #50
Kaktus*
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: PA
Posts: 22,389
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruinsfan1 View Post


The only way ATL touches this is if the pick is guarenteed to be #1 for 2 straight years. Other wise, Atlanta trades 2 franchise players for an aging player, 2 good prospects, and an overpaid 3rd liner. That's just not going to happen.
Who is overpaid?

Kaktus* is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:22 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.