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What the hell is wrong with gomez?

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Old
01-05-2009, 04:43 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by allstar3970 View Post
while i agree with most of your points, its really immature to not want your team to get players just b/c they played for a local rival.
I didn't want to get those players because they weren't particularly good. As it stands, none of them have worked out, so it seems to me like I was right from the start.

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01-05-2009, 04:49 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by DevFan-RU- View Post
To be fair, the Rangers have improved since the fire sale days. However, being a GM in NJ and being a GM in NYC are two different animals.

In NYC, you don't have the luxury of anonymity that NJ has. Lou can do his thing and not have to face massive media pressure, fan pressure, etc. Sather had the same deal when he was in Edmonton. The problem is, now he has the money in NY, and all the accountability along with it.
I don't think they have improved all that much. I see them doing the same thing. The moment they got money, they spent it on the first garbage they could find, and now they're paying the price for it, and will be for years to come. Yes, they've developed a few more prospects than they did before, but overall, it's the same old story.

And I've never bought into this excuse, personally. Massive media pressure? Yeah, we get more coverage than the Devils might, but by and large, the Rangers and the sport are largely ignored by the media. The Rangers are not the Yankees or the Mets, and they are not the Habs or the Leafs. The pressure is not the same.

Besides, Sather hasn't done anything in almost 20 years. Once he didn't have Gretzky or Messier and friends to rely on, the Oilers quickly went downward.

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01-05-2009, 04:54 PM
  #78
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Like i'd love Parise right now, but I know what Sting is saying.

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01-05-2009, 05:20 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
I didn't want to get those players because they weren't particularly good. As it stands, none of them have worked out, so it seems to me like I was right from the start.
right, but that has nothing to do with the fact that they previously played for a rival. If gomez was a 95 point player right now, you would still hate him b/c he's a "debbie"? Yeah right. If drury became a 35-40 goal scorer suddenly would you hate him b/c he scored that goal against us in 07?

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01-05-2009, 05:23 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by allstar3970 View Post
right, but that has nothing to do with the fact that they previously played for a rival. If gomez was a 95 point player right now, you would still hate him b/c he's a "debbie"? Yeah right. If drury became a 35-40 goal scorer suddenly would you hate him b/c he scored that goal against us in 07?
Let's not forget how much Rangers fans hated Jagr before he came here too.

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01-05-2009, 05:44 PM
  #81
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comparing Jagr to Gomez?

Look, the reason why Gomez isn't well-liked these days is because of unrealistic expectations. He was mostly an above average player in Jersey who was extremely streaky. He was an assist man, but I'm not sure I would've characterized him as a great playmaker - he just fit in well with his linemates at times. He played well last season, because that's the role he should be in - as a cog to an offense, not as what's expected to be the main cog of an offense. Now we're seeing what Gomez looks like on an average to below-average offense with no stars ahead of him with the focus on him. This has nothing to do with him being a former Devil, and if he had 95 points, I don't think there would be much hatred in here as there weren't any trade Gomez threads last season and the $7MM wasn't as much an issue with as many posters last season as it is this season.

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01-05-2009, 05:46 PM
  #82
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Sorry - I was on the phone while trying to answer your posts and made mistakes in both.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DevFan-RU- View Post
But I thought Kovy was a LW... unless I totally misinterpreted him.
What I meant to say was that the original poster was suggesting the Rangers trade Gomez to Atlanta to serve as Kovy's wing in Atlanta, not to bring Kovy to the Rangers. In exchange. the Rangers would seek picks & prospects from Atlanta.


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Originally Posted by DevFan-RU- View Post
Wait, are you talking about Redden now? Or Gomez? I'll assume Gomez as you may have meant "Renney" instead.

He's already a developed player, so him going above his already impressive career season 05/06, is not going to be something that is easily repeatable. Possible yes... but the statistics make it unlikely. What you see is what you get.

As for how Renney is using him, that's more on his use of Gomez's linemates. Gomez is an icebreaker, whose best role is to cut through the neutral zone and enter the offensive zone. He wont be flashy when attacking the net, and he isn't a shooter (though he can do both, it's just not his forte). He is a feeder and can only perform as well as the wingers he is playing with.
You are correct, I was talking about Sather/Renney. And I see your point, but if you take a player such as Savard (and I think that they thought they were getting a more defensively responsible Savard), he didn't take off until he turned 28. Under what circumstances did they sign Gomez? He was 27 and already had one PPG season under his belt. They were hoping for more - and frankly, I think he could give it to them, but Renney's system has set him up to fail. (And it wouldn't hurt to have an elite sniper on his wing, either.)

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01-05-2009, 05:53 PM
  #83
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Brf...

it's either Renney's system or the makeup of the team. Gomez came here last season the the notion was he'd play with Jagr. They didn't work out, and we all made excuses as to why, like Jagr slows things down, Gomez is a run-n-gun kind of guy, and perhaps that's the case, or perhaps a handful of games wasn't a representative sample and Jagr didn't start the season playing all that great. The one thing about Renney is he likes to spread things out. Don't think for a second that Renney didn't like the idea of Jagr playing with Dubi and potentially making him better (he played Jagr with Isbister and Hossa, so he has no problem throwing anybody Jagr's way). in this way, Gomez is on a second line, with Drury on a third line - you should do pretty well with that lineup. So perhaps Gomez and Jagr would've worked out, but I don't think that's the balance Renney was looking for. So yeah, Renney's gameplan does play into who Gomez plays with, but of course the whole makeup of the team plays into how Renney throws guys around on each line also.

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01-05-2009, 06:02 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
it's either Renney's system or the makeup of the team. Gomez came here last season the the notion was he'd play with Jagr. They didn't work out, and we all made excuses as to why, like Jagr slows things down, Gomez is a run-n-gun kind of guy, and perhaps that's the case, or perhaps a handful of games wasn't a representative sample and Jagr didn't start the season playing all that great. The one thing about Renney is he likes to spread things out. Don't think for a second that Renney didn't like the idea of Jagr playing with Dubi and potentially making him better (he played Jagr with Isbister and Hossa, so he has no problem throwing anybody Jagr's way). in this way, Gomez is on a second line, with Drury on a third line - you should do pretty well with that lineup. So perhaps Gomez and Jagr would've worked out, but I don't think that's the balance Renney was looking for. So yeah, Renney's gameplan does play into who Gomez plays with, but of course the whole makeup of the team plays into how Renney throws guys around on each line also.
And if Renney would actually let the second forward pressure the puck, who he played with might not matter as much. Still, I do think that he eventually requires a true sniper on his wing and I will grant you that the team doesn't have that player yet.

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01-05-2009, 06:08 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan View Post
And if Renney would actually let the second forward pressure the puck, who he played with might not matter as much. Still, I do think that he eventually requires a true sniper on his wing and I will grant you that the team doesn't have that player yet.
I'd like to see Gomez play with a guy like J.P. Dumont.

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01-05-2009, 06:48 PM
  #86
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I don't think the issue with Gomez is a heightened level of expectation because he signed a 7 million dollar contract. Much like Drury, Scott simply isn't playing up to the level he has set throughout his career. Hard to say what the problem is, but if both guys were just producing at their career average pace, this team's offensive outlook would change dramatically. An extra goal in every 2 out of 3 games (or 1 out of 2) makes a huge difference given the style that Renney employs. A lot of people think Renney's system is at fault here, but it didn't stop them from performing at normal levels last year. Nor were the lines any more settled, there was just as much juggling last year.

The fact that both Drury and Gomez are struggling at the same time is what's really strange. Most of the time they are not on the ice together. Their problems aren't just limited to offense either. Both are playing poorly by their own standards in all 3 zones. I hate to think this, but perhaps it's as simple as not being able to handle the mantle of leadership. Last year Jagr was the focus on the ice, Shanny in the dressing room, and Avery in the media. This year it's all on Drury and Gomez. Unfortunatly, it may simply be a case of them choking.

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01-05-2009, 06:55 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Esa 10 View Post
I don't think the issue with Gomez is a heightened level of expectation because he signed a 7 million dollar contract. Much like Drury, Scott simply isn't playing up to the level he has set throughout his career. Hard to say what the problem is, but if both guys were just producing at their career average pace, this team's offensive outlook would change dramatically. An extra goal in every 2 out of 3 games (or 1 out of 2) makes a huge difference given the style that Renney employs. A lot of people think Renney's system is at fault here, but it didn't stop them from performing at normal levels last year. Nor were the lines any more settled, there was just as much juggling last year.

The fact that both Drury and Gomez are struggling at the same time is what's really strange. Most of the time they are not on the ice together. Their problems aren't just limited to offense either. Both are playing poorly by their own standards in all 3 zones. I hate to think this, but perhaps it's as simple as not being able to handle the mantle of leadership. Last year Jagr was the focus on the ice, Shanny in the dressing room, and Avery in the media. This year it's all on Drury and Gomez. Unfortunatly, it may simply be a case of them choking.
Or maybe they're just not franchise players, and played with players that they meshed with better in their prior situations? Maybe to expect them to be franchise players, which is something neither has ever been, is stupid and a big mistake. Maybe that's why you don't sign them both, if even either, to such lucrative contracts when there is no indication that they are worth such a price.

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01-05-2009, 06:59 PM
  #88
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Simple, he is an ex-Devil. Has there ever been a free agent of theirs that we signed that has ever performed as well as they did in NJ? Why do you think Lou lets them come here?

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01-05-2009, 07:18 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Or maybe they're just not franchise players, and played with players that they meshed with better in their prior situations? Maybe to expect them to be franchise players, which is something neither has ever been, is stupid and a big mistake. Maybe that's why you don't sign them both, if even either, to such lucrative contracts when there is no indication that they are worth such a price.
Of course. Even at their best neither guy is really worth the cap space investment. To me that's a given and not at all surprising. But that's why I put their play within the context of their previous career achievements, not their contracts. The fact that their play is so poor by their own standards is what's shocking. And as far as not being able to mesh with linemates goes, that might be a factor offensively. But it doesn't explain brain dead neutral zone play, defensive gaffes galore, giveaways on the PP, etc.


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01-05-2009, 07:36 PM
  #90
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What is with this cutesy ******** gomez is trying to pull? he is a great skater and stickhandler but already 2 turnovers, one of which was dangerous and led to a scoring chance. i like zherdev on his line but gomes needs to play smart! get the puck in deep even if that means you have to dump ::gasp:: and chase

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01-07-2009, 08:29 AM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
that's part of it, but also Renney's notion of balance is another part of it. He thinks balance is putting a guy like Korpikoski with Gomez, which enables a guy lke Zherdev to play with Dubi and a guy like Cally (can't believer I'm throwing Cally into this) with Drury. That means the Rangers have no top line. What he doesn't realize is that Korps doesn't help Gomez, he actually holds him back. Gomez isn't Jagr - he's not going to make 20 goal scorers out of Marcel Hossa, or make Isbister look good, etc. He's an above-average centerman who is a piece to a puzzle that has a lot of pieces together. He's not a top liner, but is being asked to be one. That's the problem.
How can you possibly say Korps holds Gomez back?

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01-07-2009, 08:36 AM
  #92
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Brain Cloud.

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01-07-2009, 08:56 AM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Esa 10 View Post
Of course. Even at their best neither guy is really worth the cap space investment. To me that's a given and not at all surprising. But that's why I put their play within the context of their previous career achievements, not their contracts. The fact that their play is so poor by their own standards is what's shocking. And as far as not being able to mesh with linemates goes, that might be a factor offensively. But it doesn't explain brain dead neutral zone play, defensive gaffes galore, giveaways on the PP, etc.
It wouldn't be a Gomez shift if he didn't turn the puck over at least once.

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01-07-2009, 09:16 AM
  #94
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My take is this:

There is absolutely nothing wrong w/ Gomez. This is the exact player we signed. No different than w/ NJ.

The question that should have been asked by the OP is: What the hell is wrong w/ our fans who think that just because Gomez dons a NYR sweater he will magically become a 90pt player?

also a good question that would be deemed acceptable is: What the hell is wrong w/ Sather who signed him for $7.3 mil per season and thought he would play differently and better than w/ NJD?

but there is nothing wrong w/ Gomez. He is an above average forward skill wise, but he cannot and should not be a leader of a team or the centerpiece. he just isn't good enough, and he doesn't make players around him better. never did, never will.

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01-07-2009, 10:05 AM
  #95
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Brain Cloud.


Great reference

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01-07-2009, 10:18 AM
  #96
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I'd like to see Gomez play with a guy like J.P. Dumont.
They're both assist guys. Not sure how well that would work.

I think Callahan is his man (out of what you guys have). They just need time for Callahan to grow up. I'd keep them on a line for awhile... let them go through some growing pains. Who knows, maybe he makes Callahan a 30-goal guy.

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01-07-2009, 10:31 AM
  #97
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My take is this:

The question that should have been asked by the OP is: What the hell is wrong w/ our fans who think that just because Gomez dons a NYR sweater he will magically become a 90pt player?

also a good question that would be deemed acceptable is: What the hell is wrong w/ Sather who signed him for $7.3 mil per season and thought he would play differently and better than w/ NJD?
I think fans would watch Gomez play well against the Rangers (he does gameup for rivalries), see his flash and admire. Then they lump in the general consensus that the Devils are only a defense team.

They underrated Patrik Elias to a degree (not by much, I think there is a general respect for Elias here), and they chalk up Gionta's 48-goals as being the sole work of Gomez. They say "well he doesn't have amazing linemates, and plays in a defensive system. Imagine what he can do on an 'open' team."

The Rangers are now playing a defensive system similar to what New Jersey had employed, so that's part of it. But the other aspect is that his former linemates weren't as horrible as they were madeout to be.

Fans start to realize that Elias, while not necessary putting up the points, was still a quality player. And a guy like Gionta is a capable goal scorer without Gomez. Maybe Gionta's 48 goal season wasn't all Gomez... and maybe some of Gomez' 84-point season had to do with Gionta and other players.

So you're right, you have the exact same player New Jersey had.

I think Sather felt that if the guy was this good, he'll only get better. I do agree, a little. I think Gomez will be better next year. His price/salary was dictated by market demands.

Gomez still takes games off. He is very much full of himself, and I'm sure he bought into the "what if he played on another team" motif. Once he grows up, and plays like a man as opposed to a guy "only in his late 20s", he'll be be set.

I know its a "why isn't he performing now." But the valuable aspects of Gomez' game are things that only get better with time. He's a smart guy with great vision. That only gets better with experience.

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01-07-2009, 10:49 AM
  #98
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Gomez was very good last year... No doubt about that. Much of that probably had to do with Jagr though... Jagr being the best was getting the best defensemen on the opposing teams.

Gomez this year has been awful... He should be working on his shot constantly because he gets to good spots, he just has an awful shot. He's been a turnover machine and hasn't done much at all.

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01-07-2009, 10:58 AM
  #99
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Originally Posted by billyH2O View Post
I think fans would watch Gomez play well against the Rangers (he does gameup for rivalries), see his flash and admire. Then they lump in the general consensus that the Devils are only a defense team.

They underrated Patrik Elias to a degree (not by much, I think there is a general respect for Elias here), and they chalk up Gionta's 48-goals as being the sole work of Gomez. They say "well he doesn't have amazing linemates, and plays in a defensive system. Imagine what he can do on an 'open' team."

The Rangers are now playing a defensive system similar to what New Jersey had employed, so that's part of it. But the other aspect is that his former linemates weren't as horrible as they were madeout to be.

Fans start to realize that Elias, while not necessary putting up the points, was still a quality player. And a guy like Gionta is a capable goal scorer without Gomez. Maybe Gionta's 48 goal season wasn't all Gomez... and maybe some of Gomez' 84-point season had to do with Gionta and other players.

So you're right, you have the exact same player New Jersey had.

I think Sather felt that if the guy was this good, he'll only get better. I do agree, a little. I think Gomez will be better next year. His price/salary was dictated by market demands.

Gomez still takes games off. He is very much full of himself, and I'm sure he bought into the "what if he played on another team" motif. Once he grows up, and plays like a man as opposed to a guy "only in his late 20s", he'll be be set.

I know its a "why isn't he performing now." But the valuable aspects of Gomez' game are things that only get better with time. He's a smart guy with great vision. That only gets better with experience.
I actually think Elias was one of the best players in the World for a season or two. Right around the time he contracted Hepatitis. he was an absolute monster.

I think Gomez and Gio helped each other out, but b/c Elias was on the line w/ them they were given more freedom as defenses were more likely to key (closely watch) Elias.

I don't think that gomez is going to get better though. In fact i think he will start getting worse. I think he will try to do even more which will result in more turnovers and worse play. plus his speed will probably start slowing down (although that could be a good think as he can't outskate his own teamates by as much).

I also don't think he has great vision. I think he has great vision on a rush, but horrible vision once the game slows down, and he is in the o-zone trying to create something.

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01-07-2009, 11:07 AM
  #100
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AC...

Korps has 2 NHL goals. Gomez has 400+ NHL assissts. Is that enough evidence? OK, Korps has 40 AHL goals in 173 AHL games plus 4 goals in 100 games in Finland. In other words, he hasn't proven himself as a goal scorer at any level, let alone in the NHL.

I think people get enmored with these kids and throw out unexpected expectations. People look at Korps and see how he skates well, occasionally hits, and seemingly can move the puck, but fail to realize that perhaps he doesn't have a scoring touch, or a real nose for the net because these skills haven't been fully developed at any level, and now he's expected to score 20 goals in his first NHL season, or be on pace for that, and if he doesn't it's because Gomez couldn't set him up. I don't see it in Korps right now. He should be in Hartford.

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