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01-06-2009, 02:09 PM
  #151
Bluenote13
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
"Glass Half Full"

What it reinforces is that he is a poor decision maker. If you look at the plays where he turns the puck over, and this is game in and game out, it isn't usually his lack of options, it's simply poor judgement. And this was certainly the case in the previous game.

Of course he's out there trying to make plays, but to blame his inadequacy at doing so on his teammates isn't particularly fair. At least not all the time.

I notice everything, my dear friend. It's just that when almost every game, a player does more things wrong than he does right, the wrong is going to overshadow the right. Every player in this league, Gomez included, does something right and something wrong in every game. But when you compare this guy's play, when you analyze it game in and game out, the wrong almost always out numbers the right.

Also, Dubinsky is a second-year player. Gomez is a ninth-year player with one of the highest salaries in his sport and he is supposed to be this team's best player, or at least best forward. And as poorly as Dubinsky has played lately, I still see more effort and more drive from him than I do from Gomez.
More effort and more drive? And you seriously backup this stement with everything you know as a hockey fan?

I don't think you see the good things he does. It will always be about the money with you guys. He makes a ton of money so he should be putting up prolific numbers.

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01-06-2009, 02:21 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
More effort and more drive? And you seriously backup this stement with everything you know as a hockey fan?

I don't think you see the good things he does. It will always be about the money with you guys. He makes a ton of money so he should be putting up prolific numbers.
Have you ever seen me criticize Drury for lack of effort? I've criticized Drury, yes, but never for lack of effort. So obviously it isn't just about the money.

But there needs to be accountability. Gomez wasn't signed to be Blair Betts. We already have a Blair Betts. He's Blair Betts, that's why he earns the salary that he does. That's why Wade Redden, who might not be the worst defenseman in his own end, still deserves all the criticism he receives. He isn't being paid $6.5 million a season to be a decent defender in his own zone. There are a hundred players in this league that can do the same things defensively that he can for a fraction of the cost. He is signed to be an offensive defenseman, he was signed to be our power play quarterback.

If Johan Santana hits 20 HRs for the Mets next year, but pitches like a piece of ****, do you think they're going to be happy? They didn't sign him to hit HRs, they signed him to pitch.

Gomez isn't being paid more than anyone in the league to do what hundreds of other players could all do for much less.

Where is the accountability? Our role players routinely play harder and show more effort than Gomez. Why are you okay with that? Is that the kind of "leader" you want to mentor our kids. Great message they're sending to the youngsters. What a leader that Gomez is. Clearly the guy I want teaching my team's young players.

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01-06-2009, 02:23 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
I don't think you see the good things he does. It will always be about the money with you guys. He makes a ton of money so he should be putting up prolific numbers.
In a cap world, this is unfortunately the way it has to be. The Rangers used to be able to mask performance to salary inequalities by bringing in more players, but that is no longer an option (not that it worked in the past anyway). The guys making the big bucks need to justify it if the team is going to be successful, no two ways about it.

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01-06-2009, 02:25 PM
  #154
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Not sure if he's speculating or if he heard actual rumblings but Hartford may be adding a Korpedo to their arsenal...

http://njmg.typepad.com/rangersblog/...o-for-now.html

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01-06-2009, 02:31 PM
  #155
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We don't see eye to eye. If i hire a guy and pay him a ton I dont punish him the same I would a lesser player who will be outta here in July. Is it fair? No, the worlds not fair, huge shock there I know.

I'm not giving Gomez a pass on his play this year, but he's hardly the problem. No indivisual is the problem on this team, its the guy who put this together you should be complaining to.

As for Renney, to take a note from sting36, his good has outweighed his bad. Until you gimme a better option i'll stick with him.

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01-06-2009, 02:34 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
There are a hundred players in this league that can do the same things defensively that he can for a fraction of the cost.
Hundreds? How many do the Rangers have access to? How many are UFA's? How many would turn down a "cheap" offer from the Rangers, or any offer from the Rangers?

You can dislike what Redden's done, but he was still one of the top 5 UFA d-men this summer and that's what dictated his offer. They got a "cheap" UFA in Kalinin and you can see just what that kind of money buys you.

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01-06-2009, 02:35 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by Synergy27 View Post
In a cap world, this is unfortunately the way it has to be. The Rangers used to be able to mask performance to salary inequalities by bringing in more players, but that is no longer an option (not that it worked in the past anyway). The guys making the big bucks need to justify it if the team is going to be successful, no two ways about it.
Sather needed players and these were the guys they wanted, at the price that the market set. The only one I question is Redden, and I cant even judge that signing in one year even though he's not looking all that great.

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01-06-2009, 02:54 PM
  #158
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it's a shame they needed a cheap Kalinin. It's sad when this team can't produce a 6th defenseman from within. These days, you get guys like Mike Mottau being serviceable defensemen for under $1MM. This isn't something against Kalinin, I just think that a 6th defensive position should be able to be filled quite cheaply (even less than $2.1MM per season).

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01-06-2009, 03:01 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
it's a shame they needed a cheap Kalinin. It's sad when this team can't produce a 6th defenseman from within. These days, you get guys like Mike Mottau being serviceable defensemen for under $1MM. This isn't something against Kalinin, I just think that a 6th defensive position should be able to be filled quite cheaply (even less than $2.1MM per season).
Good example, especially the fact that it's Mottau. Could it have been Pock? Baranka?

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01-06-2009, 03:02 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr. View Post
Hundreds? How many do the Rangers have access to? How many are UFA's? How many would turn down a "cheap" offer from the Rangers, or any offer from the Rangers?

You can dislike what Redden's done, but he was still one of the top 5 UFA d-men this summer and that's what dictated his offer. They got a "cheap" UFA in Kalinin and you can see just what that kind of money buys you.
He was a top-5 UFA d-man in the eyes of terrible GMs like Glen Sather. Notice the NJ Devils, a team who could use an offensive defenseman as much as the Rangers could, didn't pursue Wade Redden. If I recall, a week after the free agent frenzy began, pretty much every publication proclaimed that Wade Redden was the worst signing of the summer.

There were other players available this summer besides Kalinin and Redden. You know, I've been a member and reader of this board for a while, but I only started posting a lot this season. Prior, I used to post regularly on another message board, and every season for the last 3-4, I've made a thread about upcoming UFAs that I hoped the Rangers would pursue.

Never was Gomez on that list. Never was Redden. Never was Kalinin. Drury was, though I recall making it very clear that I wouldn't want him for anything more than $5 million a year, and even that was overpayment.

I'm not trying to brag here or say that I should be a GM of a hockey team. But if I could see that these were wrong moves to make, and nothing has happened yet to signify otherwise, shouldn't Sather have figured that out, too? Again, there is no accountability.

The stupidest misconception in sports is that most of the people who run the teams know what they're doing. In each professional sport, every year, a number of people continue to prove how incorrect that belief is, and Glen Sather is a prime example of that. The man completely misjudged the situation.

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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
Sather needed players and these were the guys they wanted, at the price that the market set. The only one I question is Redden, and I cant even judge that signing in one year even though he's not looking all that great.
Right. Sather needed and wanted the wrong people, as was the case with Gomez and Drury. It's one thing to sign a question mark of a player for a season, maybe even two. You can live with that. But he took two second-line players who had never been the focal point of a team before and put over half a decade of this team's future on them. Then, the next summer, to show that he really doesn't understand the concept of a salary cap at all, he goes out and signs a player who has been horrendous for two years, a player booed out of his last city, and gives him an enormous contract for six years.

Just because you have money doesn't mean you need to spend it the moment you get it, especially when there is nothing worth spending it on.

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01-06-2009, 03:04 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
it's a shame they needed a cheap Kalinin. It's sad when this team can't produce a 6th defenseman from within. These days, you get guys like Mike Mottau being serviceable defensemen for under $1MM. This isn't something against Kalinin, I just think that a 6th defensive position should be able to be filled quite cheaply (even less than $2.1MM per season).
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Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr. View Post
Good example, especially the fact that it's Mottau. Could it have been Pock? Baranka?
But these guys couldn't just do what Kalinin is doing, they could easily replace Redden and the difference would be minor at best as well. Potter has already showed that.

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01-06-2009, 03:11 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
There were other players available this summer besides Kalinin and Redden.
You make it sound like I don't know who else was available.

The point is, players like Orpik, Campbell and Streit all chose not to entertain offers from the Rangers, so them "being available" doesn't really mean much. Redden very well might not have been Sather's first choice, but if you're suggesting that the team would be better off with someone like Malik in his place solely because he's "cheap", then I whole heartedly disagree.

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01-06-2009, 03:11 PM
  #163
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Sting - I'd be wary of replacing Redden with a guy like Potter, Mottau or another similar player. I'm not a fan of Redden. Didn't like the signing and like it less now. I don't think he's a top flight defenseman. But, he does bring a couple things that those guys do not. Those guys keep it simple. They try to move the puck and keep it out of their end. They don't typically face the Crosbys of the world, but I'm sure they've been on the ice against them. Redden may not do a great job, but I'd be scared to see a Potter play 20+ minutes, expect to put up 30-40 points in a season, and go against top lines. Third pair and top pair are not the same thing.

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01-06-2009, 03:12 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post

Right. Sather needed and wanted the wrong people, as was the case with Gomez and Drury. It's one thing to sign a question mark of a player for a season, maybe even two. You can live with that. But he took two second-line players who had never been the focal point of a team before and put over half a decade of this team's future on them. Then, the next summer, to show that he really doesn't understand the concept of a salary cap at all, he goes out and signs a player who has been horrendous for two years, a player booed out of his last city, and gives him an enormous contract for six years.

Just because you have money doesn't mean you need to spend it the moment you get it, especially when there is nothing worth spending it on.
I can't believe I lived to see such a post here.
Well, didn't take that long... How about the concept of smaller fast and agile players?

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01-06-2009, 03:13 PM
  #165
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Not sure if he's speculating or if he heard actual rumblings but Hartford may be adding a Korpedo to their arsenal...

http://njmg.typepad.com/rangersblog/...o-for-now.html
That sucks. I thought he was actually playing well lately too. I guess it's better he plays instead of sitting in the press box though.

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01-06-2009, 03:16 PM
  #166
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That sucks. I thought he was actually playing well lately too. I guess it's better he plays instead of sitting in the press box though.
Argh ......well if he is going to sit he may as well play in Hartford.............I can see why they did it but it has nothing to do with is play since he has had high energy ........he needs to get some goals however

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01-06-2009, 03:29 PM
  #167
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Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr. View Post
You make it sound like I don't know who else was available.

The point is, players like Orpik, Campbell and Streit all chose not to entertain offers from the Rangers, so them "being available" doesn't really mean much. Redden very well might not have been Sather's first choice, but if you're suggesting that the team would be better off with someone like Malik in his place solely because he's "cheap", then I whole heartedly disagree.
If there was no salary cap and I had to choose between Redden and Malik, I would choose Redden. But there is a salary cap. Malik (and there were other cheap alternatives available, not just Malik) for 2 mill a year for one year > Redden for 6.5 mill for six years. Malik or what ever other cheap guy you get would only be around for a year. But Redden, who most people expected to stink, is around for six years, and no one is going to take him off our hands. But the icing on the cake in this issue is that this terrible misjudgment was made when the team already had two terrible contracts on the books.

Wade Redden is easily the worst contract in the National Hockey League. I challenge you to go through every team's roster and find one that is worse. I'd take Jeff Finger and his contract over Wade Redden and his any day of the week.

You know, I remember a few months ago when I bought a new television I went to Best Buy knowing what I wanted, the exact model and the price they were advertising was something I was willing to spend. I showed up and found out they didn't have anymore in stock. I could have instead purchased a worse television for more money. I chose not to. Instead, I waited until something that suited my needs more was available.

So they couldn't get Orpik or Campbell. That means they have to go out and throw ridiculous money at a far inferior player? And it isn't just a lot of money, it's six years. That is a long time. And for what? Did they really think Wade Redden would turn us into a cup contender? Did you? I didn't.

And I'm no insider, but I'm fairly certain that Mark Streit would have preferred to sign with the Rangers than the Islanders had they offered him the same salary, a salary that is significantly cheaper than Redden's by the way.

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Sting - I'd be wary of replacing Redden with a guy like Potter, Mottau or another similar player. I'm not a fan of Redden. Didn't like the signing and like it less now. I don't think he's a top flight defenseman. But, he does bring a couple things that those guys do not. Those guys keep it simple. They try to move the puck and keep it out of their end. They don't typically face the Crosbys of the world, but I'm sure they've been on the ice against them. Redden may not do a great job, but I'd be scared to see a Potter play 20+ minutes, expect to put up 30-40 points in a season, and go against top lines. Third pair and top pair are not the same thing.
What is the difference between what Redden brings and what Potter brings? Is it worth completely destroying your financial position in a salary cap league for six years?

Is the difference between Redden, who excels at nothing and is, IMO, the definition of mediocrity for a hockey player, a player that is average in practically every regard, and Potter worth $6.5 million dollars a season for six seasons?

I don't think so. It's one thing if Redden is the difference between contending and not contending. But he isn't, and if Sather thought he was, than he is an idiot. Plain and simple. If you watched Wade Redden play for the last two seasons for any kind of extended period of time, you would have to be out of your mind to think that his addition to this team would improve it drastically.

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I can't believe I lived to see such a post here.
Well, didn't take that long... How about the concept of smaller fast and agile players?
...I'm not sure what this means, to be perfectly honest.

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01-06-2009, 04:36 PM
  #168
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Hmmm, tough to argue...Is Redden the difference between contending and not contending? The only way to find out is if you take Redden out game one, replace him with Potter and replay the games, with Potter playing 20+ minutes, going against top lines, etc. And he may be a difference maker (this doesn't mean that he's great, but that he's a bit better than Potter and with all the close games the Rangers have had, a bit better may be all that's needed).

I guess the Rangers could've had Mara in Redden's role (and I do think Mara is lesser than Redden, although Mara has performed very well in his 'role' which is a bit more limited, typically). I think Mara slips a bit a Redden's role. Then you have Potter in Mara's role and still have Kalinin and save about $6MM per year. With that $6MM you have a lot of flexibility. Hmmm.

Oh well, that ain't the case though and we need to deal with the players on this team to move forward.

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01-06-2009, 04:47 PM
  #169
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Id like Renney to try this lineup for like 5-10 games.

Naslund Gomez Prucha
Dawes Drury Callahan
Korpikoski Dubinsky Zherdev
Sjostrom Betts Orr

This is the lineup ive wanted to see for a while now, and its probably the 1 configuration renney has not tried in his bajillion different line combinations. It just makes sense to me.

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01-06-2009, 04:55 PM
  #170
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Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
Id like Renney to try this lineup for like 5-10 games.

Naslund Gomez Prucha
Dawes Drury Callahan
Korpikoski Dubinsky Zherdev
Sjostrom Betts Orr

This is the lineup ive wanted to see for a while now, and its probably the 1 configuration renney has not tried in his bajillion different line combinations. It just makes sense to me.
Switch Korpedo and Pru and I'm sold.

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01-06-2009, 05:01 PM
  #171
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Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
Id like Renney to try this lineup for like 5-10 games.

Naslund Gomez Prucha
Dawes Drury Callahan
Korpikoski Dubinsky Zherdev
Sjostrom Betts Orr

This is the lineup ive wanted to see for a while now, and its probably the 1 configuration renney has not tried in his bajillion different line combinations. It just makes sense to me.
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Originally Posted by we want cup View Post
Switch Korpedo and Pru and I'm sold.
Aboslutely switch Prucha. Prucha has no business being on the right side and Korpedo should be playing with top 6, not bottom 3 players.

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01-06-2009, 05:01 PM
  #172
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inferno...

considering Gomez and Drury are supposed to be this team's top two centermen, I'd give them a little bit better to work with. As in switching Prucha and Zherdev and switching Korps and Prucha if on the same line. Or, Cally with Gomez and Zherdev with Drury. This puts everyone in their most comfortable position. It puts the top 6 scorers, or supposed top 6 scorers, with each other. It creates a third line with some speed, some size and grit, as well as some skill; what you look for in a third line. Then you move Voros to the fourth line with Betts and Orr/Sjostrom - perhaps try sitting Orr a couple games and see if that creates a team with more speed and skill. Although I think Korps might be better served in HFD and perhaps Voros is better there with Dubi and Prucha (even though I hate playing guys out of position), although there's still Fritsche. Lots of way to skin it, but I think Zherdev with Dubi has run its course and it's time to get Gomez and Drury going (although for a game, Drury was going, but I really don't like the smurf line).

I do often hate playing the line changing game because we have no control over it, but I guess if I'm going to be critical of the coach's line makeups, I should offer a soltuion.

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01-06-2009, 08:04 PM
  #173
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...I'm not sure what this means, to be perfectly honest.
Mmm... forgot to put after question mark. Man, you're doing excellent job in what I failed to do here... I was just moooing like a cow compare to your writings. Great stuff... Agree with every point, including Marek Malik.

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01-06-2009, 08:29 PM
  #174
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Hmmm, tough to argue...Is Redden the difference between contending and not contending? The only way to find out is if you take Redden out game one, replace him with Potter and replay the games, with Potter playing 20+ minutes, going against top lines, etc. And he may be a difference maker (this doesn't mean that he's great, but that he's a bit better than Potter and with all the close games the Rangers have had, a bit better may be all that's needed).

I guess the Rangers could've had Mara in Redden's role (and I do think Mara is lesser than Redden, although Mara has performed very well in his 'role' which is a bit more limited, typically). I think Mara slips a bit a Redden's role. Then you have Potter in Mara's role and still have Kalinin and save about $6MM per year. With that $6MM you have a lot of flexibility. Hmmm.

Oh well, that ain't the case though and we need to deal with the players on this team to move forward.
Fletch, Sting is reaching out here, IMO. While Gomez is a failed enterprise at this point, Redden is not such a huge mistake. At least he is doing some job and he does it better that Kalinin, let alone Potter who is yet to prove he is NHL material.
Slats was to lose Tyutin and Malik. He replaced them with Redden and Kalinin. First, Malik is no Redden at this point in his career Both are washed up, but Malik never was as good as young Redden. Thus Malik should be compared to Kalinin, who is by all means is his replacement. My conclusion: Malik would be better and cheaper then Kalinin. Sting is correct there.
Now, if Redden is actually Tyutin replacement, then it is tough comparison, if at all possible. Young D still improving with unknown limit VS. has been (arguably) elite D. If you add contract aspect to it, then Redden sinks, no question... But I got a feeling Sather just doesn't give a damn about cap ( Sting is being right there as well) and he wanted Zherdev. So he did what he did and now it's clear that Gomez and Drury let the old man down.

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01-06-2009, 08:50 PM
  #175
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I actually liked the lucky goals last night. We don't need pretty goals to play good hockey. Hell, we don't get beat by pretty goals, its usually a pinball highlight video that beats Henrik on most nights. Rodent had another good one on last night's game. http://hockeyrodent.com/

As a hockey fan I love everything whistle to whistle and even after, but when I'm getting a gauge on how well a team plays I pay attention to everything between the shots. You figure that after a shot is taken, it's out of the coach's hands. It is now a matter of talent and chance, both in the shooter and the goalie. We are a team that for too long has passed up on the shots that Dawes scored on. Dawes wasn't rewarded for luck, he was rewarded for making a good choice. And that is all the coach can control, or influence I guess, choices. I don't want to throw out the 'you can't score if you don't shoot' cliche but with this team it's half true. We have a ton of shots but it tends to be the predictable/trackable variety. We don't have the talent to score on those shots. The Rangers need more of the 'ugly', deflected/bouncing shots. Shoot through traffic because if the goalie sees our shots, he'll stop it.

Our success the rest of the way will be determined by how closely the choices resemble last night's. If guys decide to shoot in less than perfect situations, we'll get 'lucky'. If guys shoot with authority and without hesitation through traffic like Mara did, we'll be successful. If they move in the zone and funnel the puck to the high percentage area's like Drury's line did, we'll get better results.

"Doing what's right got you in this mess. I'm talkin about trying a little wrong, dog."

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