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Old
01-06-2009, 08:58 PM
  #176
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The line-up i've been harping for a while now is:

Naslund-Gomez-Korpikoski
Prucha-Dubinsky-Zherdev
Dawes-Drury-Callahan
Sjostrom-Betts-Orr

I think it's the most balanced line-up, and the most sucessful.

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01-06-2009, 11:35 PM
  #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _AC_ View Post
The line-up i've been harping for a while now is:

Naslund-Gomez-Korpikoski
Prucha-Dubinsky-Zherdev
Dawes-Drury-Callahan
Sjostrom-Betts-Orr

I think it's the most balanced line-up, and the most sucessful.
Yeah - we saw it against the Isles and Caps. I'd like to see it for the rest of the season, unless of course there are trades/callups.

If Renney wants to get Voros in there, he should do it at Stonehands Orr's expense (except in games where the enforcer is clearly needed).

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01-07-2009, 07:54 AM
  #178
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BRF, and AC...

with those lines, the Gomez bashing will continue and get worse. Korps has no business on a 'top' NHL line. AHL, yes, but not the NHL.

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01-07-2009, 08:56 AM
  #179
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
You know, I remember a few months ago when I bought a new television I went to Best Buy knowing what I wanted, the exact model and the price they were advertising was something I was willing to spend. I showed up and found out they didn't have anymore in stock. I could have instead purchased a worse television for more money. I chose not to. Instead, I waited until something that suited my needs more was available.

So they couldn't get Orpik or Campbell. That means they have to go out and throw ridiculous money at a far inferior player? And it isn't just a lot of money, it's six years. That is a long time. And for what? Did they really think Wade Redden would turn us into a cup contender? Did you? I didn't.
The TV is a bad example. If they were only 5 or 6 of these TV's and 29 other people that wanted them, then you'd have to pay market value or settle for the "Malik" of TV's.

I don't believe anyone ever said that Redden = NYR Stanley Cup. Realistically, all Redden does is allow Sather to trade Tyutin for Zherdev without downgrading the defense. The idea was to accept the crippling contract for the help up front that was so desperately needed and to buy some time until Cherepanov could provide it at a lower price.

Regarding Redden as a "far inferior player", it depends who he's inferior to. I maintain that he's one of the best defenseman the Rangers had/have access to. Better players, like Campbell, got more money and more years and come with the same guarantee of success that Redden does. None.

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01-07-2009, 09:19 AM
  #180
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Redden was a mistake, only in that we already had a similar player in Rosi. If the plan was to jettison Rosi, and pick up an Orpik-type, then I could live with it. But we got hosed. Wade finally has shown a little fire the past couple games, but he's made far too many boneheaded plays for someone who came so highly touted. The kids on D have shown more responsibility with the puck. Shameful. Not to mention the one thing he was supposed to help us improve, the PP, sits at 26th in the league with a league-leading 13 short-handers against. Sure it's not all him, but his decisions with the puck sure haven't helped. Talk about wilting under the bright lights of the big city. He and Kalinen have me longing for Malik and Poti...at least they didn't cost as much.

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01-07-2009, 11:19 AM
  #181
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Redden was a mistake, only in that we already had a similar player in Rosi.
that may have been true in the past but redden is nothing like roz this season from what i can see. redden is a disgrace. he won't even take a simple hit to make a good pass.

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01-07-2009, 11:28 AM
  #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr. View Post
The TV is a bad example. If they were only 5 or 6 of these TV's and 29 other people that wanted them, then you'd have to pay market value or settle for the "Malik" of TV's.
Maybe so, but you would only be settling for a "Malik" for what, a season? And again, I maintain, how much better than Malik is Redden?

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I don't believe anyone ever said that Redden = NYR Stanley Cup. Realistically, all Redden does is allow Sather to trade Tyutin for Zherdev without downgrading the defense. The idea was to accept the crippling contract for the help up front that was so desperately needed and to buy some time until Cherepanov could provide it at a lower price.
Ah, but that's the rub, isn't it? The key word is CRIPPLING. CRIPPLING. Even if Cherepanov doesn't die, that doesn't make that contract any less crippling. What kind of terrible asset management is it when you have a team, which you readily admit Redden does not turn into a contender, and you've used two out of three 1st round picks to draft high-quality offensive defensemen, so you want to cripple yourself for 6 years by signing Wade Redden? For what? To replace Tyutin? You couldn't replace Tyutin with a far less crippling move? Tyutin is a second-pairing defenseman with very moderate offensive skills. Replacing Tyutin does not require throwing a wad of money at a player coming off two consecutive horrible seasons. And in the end, you end up downgrading the defense anyway. I'm by no means a big tyutin fan, never understood the fascination with him, but I'd take him over Redden (and I'm not even talking about contracts here). At least Tyutin does some stuff well. What does Redden excel at? What aspect of the game? He's markedly average at practically everything.

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Regarding Redden as a "far inferior player", it depends who he's inferior to. I maintain that he's one of the best defenseman the Rangers had/have access to. Better players, like Campbell, got more money and more years and come with the same guarantee of success that Redden does. None.
He's only "one of the best defensemen they had access too" because, and I will give you this, there was a fairly small number of defensemen on the UFA market last season. But you know what, you still have Hainsey, you had Streit, you had Commodore, you had Montador. If you take out Campbell, because he commanded more money, and you even take out some of the defensive defensemen like Jason Smith or Ossi Vaananen or Kurt Sauer, (all of whom I'd rather have for a year or two than Redden, despite their offensive shortcomings), Sather took arguably the worst guy out of the remaining bunch, and paid him the most money. You think Hainsey (Atlanta), Streit (Islanders), Commodore (Columbus) wouldn't have taken the same exact money they got to play here?

And, again, I ask, for what? I'm using your word here. The team's financial position has been crippled, and for what?

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01-07-2009, 11:58 AM
  #183
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Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
with those lines, the Gomez bashing will continue and get worse. Korps has no business on a 'top' NHL line. AHL, yes, but not the NHL.
Eh, there really is no "top" line there. Just three equally "solid" lines that Renney can roll.

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01-07-2009, 12:13 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Tyutin is a second-pairing defenseman with very moderate offensive skills. Replacing Tyutin does not require throwing a wad of money at a player coming off two consecutive horrible seasons.
All other Ds you mentioned as possible sather acquisition would not be adequate replacement for Toots, who is puck moving D. Those , including Malik are stay-at-home type.
You're right Redden had two bad seasons, but he had many good seasons prior. Should Ottawa have had your "vision", they would have let him go and have kept Chara.
I don't think Redden signing was an act of stupidity as you claim. Sather gambled with Rangers money there... All gamblers look stupid when they lose. No one calls them a names when they win, though.

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01-07-2009, 12:20 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
with those lines, the Gomez bashing will continue and get worse. Korps has no business on a 'top' NHL line. AHL, yes, but not the NHL.
If you're looking for a TOP NHL LINE this team doesn't have one. Go check Pitsburgh, or Detoit for that TOP NHL LINE.

HOWEVER, what this team can do is balance their scoring. Like the Sabres when Drury was with them.

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01-07-2009, 12:23 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by _AC_ View Post
The line-up i've been harping for a while now is:

Naslund-Gomez-Korpikoski
Prucha-Dubinsky-Zherdev
Dawes-Drury-Callahan
Sjostrom-Betts-Orr

I think it's the most balanced line-up, and the most sucessful.


i think prucha would do very well playing with zherdev. its pretty much 3 second lines and thats fine with me because we dont have any 1st line players IMO other then zherdev when hes on his game.

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01-07-2009, 12:28 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
And, again, I ask, for what? I'm using your word here. The team's financial position has been crippled, and for what?
Because he comes with an expectation of results and abilities that exceed the other player's your mentioning. He's a 0.5pt/gm player and a career +153 in almost 900 games. This wasn't a reclamation project or a dice roll. They wanted a veteran with experience and a pedigree of success and were willing to pay for it. Just because you don't like him, personally, doesn't mean he's not worth it.

That said, now he's gotta earn it. It's partially up to him, it's partially up to Renney and honestly, as the season rolls on, I'm finding myself questioning the latter more and more. I think it's more than just a coincidence that everyone on the team is struggling to consistently deliver. If you could add just a teaspoon of competency to the PP alone, it's a fair bet that a guy with almost half his points earned with the man advantage would be showing you what he could really do.

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01-07-2009, 12:34 PM
  #188
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Every time I see Voros out there with Zherdev I feel bad for Z for having to play with him. He is clearly not on the same level and just can't keep up with Z's playmaking abilities.

Naslund - Gomez - Zherdev
Dawes - Drury - Prucha
Voros/Korpedo - Dubinsky - Callahan
Sjostrom - Betts - Orr

I think if that top line gets going and that second line continues to progress this team can get hot and will fight for the division.

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01-07-2009, 12:39 PM
  #189
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All other Ds you mationed as possible sather aquisition would not be adequate replacement for Toots, who is puck moving D. Those you mention, including Malik are stay-at-home defensemen. You're right Redden had two bad seasons, but he had many good seasons prior. Should Ottawa have had your "vision", they would have let him go and have kept Chara.
I don't think Redden signing was an act of stupidity as you claim. Sather gambled with Rangers money there... All gamblers look stupid when they lose. No one calls them the names when they win, though.
Actually, one of Malik's best qualities was his puck-moving ability. Not trying to defend Malik, but that is something that he actually does fairly well, or at least used to.

And if you ask virtually all Ottawa fans, they would say Chara > Redden. And for the record, I recall laughing heartily when Muckler, who is basically responsible for the mess that Ottawa is in right now, picked Redden over Chara.

Sather gambled not only with Redden. He gambled with Drury. He gambled with Gomez. And that's the point. You can't afford to take so many high-risk gambles in a salary cap league. That's poor business sense.

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01-07-2009, 12:48 PM
  #190
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that's some balance, AC...a kid with no history of being a decent goal scorer anywhere with a guy who's expected to put up 70+ points. To me, that's irresponsible, not balance. Having Cally play there is balance. Having Dawes play there is balance. Having a kid like Korps play there is not the balance Renney should be looking for, in my opinion.

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01-07-2009, 12:52 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
that's some balance, AC...a kid with no history of being a decent goal scorer anywhere with a guy who's expected to put up 70+ points. To me, that's irresponsible, not balance. Having Cally play there is balance. Having Dawes play there is balance. Having a kid like Korps play there is not the balance Renney should be looking for, in my opinion.
Dawes and Callahan, when it's all said and done--- wouldn't even be able to hold Korpikoski's jock strap....nevermind balancing out the line-ups by being on the first line.

Irresponsible is playing Korpi out of position and burying him on the bottom two lines when it's evident he has more talent than that. Better yet, Irresponsible is having Korpi scratched for Voros just when he was starting to get scoring chances.

It's safe to say we can agree to disagree here.

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01-07-2009, 12:57 PM
  #192
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Originally Posted by _AC_ View Post
Dawes and Callahan, when it's all said and done--- wouldn't even be able to hold Korpikoski's jock strap....nevermind balancing out the line-ups by being on the first line.

Irresponsible is playing Korpi out of position and burying him on the bottom two lines when it's evident he has more talent than that. Better yet, Irresponsible is having Korpi scratched for Voros just when he was starting to get scoring chances.

It's safe to say we can agree to disagree here.
While I think korpikoski will be a good player, I think playing him on the third line with either dubinsky or drury isnt a bad place for him to start. You have to realize that playing with gomez and naslund means he wil be playing upwards of 17 minutes a night which may be a bit too much for a rookie and that TOI comes with the pressure to help carry the offense. I would rather have him be comfortable while getting 14-15 minutes a night as all three centers are good and get a good amount of time.

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01-07-2009, 01:01 PM
  #193
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Actually, one of Malik's best qualities was his puck-moving ability. Not trying to defend Malik, but that is something that he actually does fairly well, or at least used to.
I agree and I think TB uses him that way. This very board almost ate alive hwen I tried to defend poor Marek. And this place filled with above average folks.

The Rangers PR did much better job to save Rozy from booing, but they missed Malik big time , he became new Poti and there was no way for Slats to keep him without criticizm from every place possible.

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And if you ask virtually all Ottawa fans, they would say Chara > Redden. And for the record, I recall laughing heartily when Muckler, who is basically responsible for the mess that Ottawa is in right now, picked Redden over Chara.
It is easy to be smart afterwards. I remember Senators board was equally divided over that at the time.

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Sather gambled not only with Redden. He gambled with Drury. He gambled with Gomez. And that's the point. You can't afford to take so many high-risk gambles in a salary cap league. That's poor business sense.
Well, that's what teams like Edmonton are doing. Any success there?
I don't disagree with your diagnosis. It is 100% correct. I do not see any suggestions from you other then run this franchise the way the "rural" clubs do. This is New York. Cap was bad for us, it kills us still. But the Detroit shows us there is the better way to do business cap or no cap. They gamble too, but they much more often successful in it

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01-07-2009, 01:08 PM
  #194
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While I think korpikoski will be a good player, I think playing him on the third line with either dubinsky or drury isnt a bad place for him to start. You have to realize that playing with gomez and naslund means he wil be playing upwards of 17 minutes a night which may be a bit too much for a rookie and that TOI comes with the pressure to help carry the offense. I would rather have him be comfortable while getting 14-15 minutes a night as all three centers are good and get a good amount of time.
It's okay. If Callahan can do it(which he can't), we can give Korpi a try.

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01-07-2009, 01:17 PM
  #195
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It's okay. If Callahan can do it(which he can't), we can give Korpi a try.
Its not that I think he would be out of place on that line, its just that I would be hesitant to put him on the "1st" line with a player like gomez and a player like naslund who were brought in to help truly carry the offense.

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01-07-2009, 01:21 PM
  #196
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Dawes and Callahan, when it's all said and done--- wouldn't even be able to hold Korpikoski's jock strap....nevermind balancing out the line-ups by being on the first line.

Irresponsible is playing Korpi out of position and burying him on the bottom two lines when it's evident he has more talent than that. Better yet, Irresponsible is having Korpi scratched for Voros just when he was starting to get scoring chances.

It's safe to say we can agree to disagree here.
Careful there...I've believe it when it happens.

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01-07-2009, 01:21 PM
  #197
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Its not that I think he would be out of place on that line, its just that I would be hesitant to put him on the "1st" line with a player like gomez and a player like naslund who were brought in to help truly carry the offense.
Ok guys...I get it, I get it. Having a Fin with a Swede on the same unit isn't a good idea.

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01-07-2009, 01:22 PM
  #198
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Originally Posted by _AC_ View Post
Dawes and Callahan, when it's all said and done--- wouldn't even be able to hold Korpikoski's jock strap....nevermind balancing out the line-ups by being on the first line.

Irresponsible is playing Korpi out of position and burying him on the bottom two lines when it's evident he has more talent than that. Better yet, Irresponsible is having Korpi scratched for Voros just when he was starting to get scoring chances.

It's safe to say we can agree to disagree here.
Hard to say he's buried with lesser linemates when those linemates have more or as many points as he does.

I'll take my chances with the guys who have a history of scoring goals.

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01-07-2009, 01:23 PM
  #199
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Careful there...I've believe it when it happens.
No need to be careful my friend. Just watch what they've done on the ice. Take into account how much time they've taken to bring what they have and what not.

Hey if i'm wrong, I'll bump this thread and confirm that you were right.

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01-07-2009, 01:26 PM
  #200
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Hard to say he's buried with lesser linemates when those linemates have more or as many points as he does.

I'll take my chances with the guys who have a history of scoring goals.
That's a pretty abysmal way to put things into perspective. That's like saying Betts is a better offensive player than Korps b/c he may have as many or more points as Korps.

Again, numbers aren't everything, especially in this case.

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