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Old
01-06-2009, 10:51 AM
  #26
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Originally Posted by FLYLine88 View Post
Not when he continues to change lines up every other game, make questionable roster changes(Voros/Korpi the lastest?), play sit back hockey and blow huge leads, not figure out how to coach a PP, not getting his vets playing the way they should(goes back to line changes every other game)........

It will end when hes gone.

I hate Stan Fishler, but listening him to rip into Renney a bit 2 games ago about his non stop line changes was nice to hear.
Why is the Voros for Korpikoski switch so questionable? Renney wanted size in the lineup and it was going to come at the expense of Prucha, Dawes, or Korpikoski. With the other 2 producing, Korps was the obvious choice to sit. I dont care that hes been "busting his ass" the last few games...He wasnt producing as well as the only 2 wingers, and the team was not playing well as a whole.

Its a shame you continue to ***** so much about Renney, cause you're really missing an interesting season in which a flawed roster with arguably ZERO first line talent is first in the Atlantic and 10 games over .500 at the halfway point. Ill stop short of asking you if Renney deserves any credit at all for this. By your own admission, you wont stop the whining until Renney is gone, which is a long ways away. Its a shame that you and the rest of the Renney bashers cant give him even an ounce of credit when his changes to the lineup helped produce the best group effort in a long time. Its an even bigger shame that you listen to one word that Stan Fischler has to say.

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01-06-2009, 11:05 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
You mean the line changing that resulted in a 4-0 victory?

You mean the line change that resulted in the Drury, Prucha and Dawes combining for 2 goals and 4 assists?

If he changes line combos the ad hoc response is "Stop changing lines!"

If he doesn't its, "Do something! Why isn't XX playing??!!"

It will end when he's gone? Then get comfortable because he can likely miss the playoffs and still keep his job.

And really, you're going to point to Stan Fischler as the voice of reason?
Bravo, I wish I had your patience, my response to "FLYLINE" wouldve been warning worthy

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01-06-2009, 11:52 AM
  #28
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Why is the Voros for Korpikoski switch so questionable? Renney wanted size in the lineup and it was going to come at the expense of Prucha, Dawes, or Korpikoski. With the other 2 producing, Korps was the obvious choice to sit. I dont care that hes been "busting his ass" the last few games...He wasnt producing as well as the only 2 wingers, and the team was not playing well as a whole.

Its a shame you continue to ***** so much about Renney, cause you're really missing an interesting season in which a flawed roster with arguably ZERO first line talent is first in the Atlantic and 10 games over .500 at the halfway point. Ill stop short of asking you if Renney deserves any credit at all for this. By your own admission, you wont stop the whining until Renney is gone, which is a long ways away. Its a shame that you and the rest of the Renney bashers cant give him even an ounce of credit when his changes to the lineup helped produce the best group effort in a long time. Its an even bigger shame that you listen to one word that Stan Fischler has to say.
Well, I won't even attempt to defend a Fischler reference , but as to the rest:

I'm sorry, but this song and dance goes on after every victory and every loss with each side quoting the most recent result as incontrovertible proof of their point of view.

The fact of the matter is that those of us who dislike Renney see a team that has progressed as far as it can under him and that he is now one of the barriers holding back development. As HockeyBasedNYC said in a previous post, he plays not to lose. You can even see it in his own quotes - that crap about being a team that plays 2-1 games. Now, I haven't gone back and checked the stats, but I'm pretty sure that no team has won the Stanley Cup averaging 2 goals a game (or with a GAA of 1, for that matter).

This team was built to be a speed-based, puck pressure, countering team (and I say this based not just on my own analysis of the roster, but also on the public statements made by Sather as he made his various acquisitions over the last couple of years). But he insists on playing a defensive style that emphasizes not giving up goals at the expense of scoring them. This is a) counter to what the team was built to do and b) a really hard way to win - especially in the playoffs where there's no shootout.

We complain about the lineup changes, because they of course hurt offensive chemistry, but also they are always done with the defensive impact in mind and with little thought to the effect on the offense. If we were giving up four goals a game I would understand. That's not this team's problem. We need to figure out ways to score more consistently ourselves. So put players in positions to succeed in the offensive zone and then leave them there to build chemistry for more than 1-2 a games in a row!

Taking all of the above into account, I think I speak for Inferno, Fly and the rest of the Fire Renney crowd when I say this team has maxed out with Renney as coach. He either has to change (which rarely happens - Tom Coughlin is the only example of a professional coach that I can think of who reinvented himself while staying with the same team) or needs to be fired/"promoted" to VP of Player Development.

And hey, if I'm wrong and they play .667 hockey for the rest of the year and then go on to win the Cup, I'll gladly eat my words. But based on what I've seen to date - including the team's performance in many of their wins, he's got to go.

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01-06-2009, 12:02 PM
  #29
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Taking all of the above into account, I think I speak for Inferno, Fly and the rest of the Fire Renney crowd when I say this team has maxed out with Renney as coach. He either has to change (which rarely happens - Tom Coughlin is the only example of a professional coach that I can think of who reinvented himself while staying with the same team) or needs to be fired/"promoted" to VP of Player Development.

And hey, if I'm wrong and they play .667 hockey for the rest of the year and then go on to win the Cup, I'll gladly eat my words. But based on what I've seen to date - including the team's performance in many of their wins, he's got to go.
Its the opposite - he's maximizing a mediocre teams abilities to keep them in the running and its working if you check the standings.

No ones claiming this is a dynasty here, but they could make the playoffs and they won't be easy to deal with when they do. Beating and playing one goal games against the best in the league is proof that they can play with tough competition. Renney has to be given credit for some of this when we have a team full of players who have been hit or miss all year.

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01-06-2009, 12:05 PM
  #30
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Its the opposite - he's maximizing a mediocre teams abilities to keep them in the running and its working if you check the standings.

No ones claiming this is a dynasty here, but they could make the playoffs and they won't be easy to deal with when they do. Beating and playing one goal games against the best in the league is proof that they can play with tough competition. Renney has to be given credit for some of this when we have a team full of players who have been hit or miss all year.
And here's the fundamental difference - you think that the players are crap and Renney's been working miracles with dreck. I think that the players are actually good and that the coach's moves (both in terms of lineup decisions and in-game strategy) are holding them back.

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01-06-2009, 12:15 PM
  #31
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You mean the line changing that resulted in a 4-0 victory?

You mean the line change that resulted in the Drury, Prucha and Dawes combining for 2 goals and 4 assists?

If he changes line combos the ad hoc response is "Stop changing lines!"


If he doesn't its, "Do something! Why isn't XX playing??!!"

It will end when he's gone? Then get comfortable because he can likely miss the playoffs and still keep his job.

And really, you're going to point to Stan Fischler as the voice of reason?
One game? When he keeps the lines up for the next 5 games and we win more then we lose we can talk about that.

Obviously when you throw so much crap on the wall, some of it is bound to stick. He just continues throwing crap together, whether it working..or not.

The Drury, Dawes, Prucha lines looked good in its first game, now how long till Renney changes that? The first game where nobody gets a point? Wouldnt suprise me the slightest.

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01-06-2009, 12:16 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by FLYLine88 View Post
One game? When he keeps the lines up for the next 5 games and we win more then we lose we can talk about that.

Obviously when you throw so much crap on the wall, some of it is bound to stick. He just continues throwing crap together, whether it working..or not.
Come on. You have to be fair with the guy. You can't kill him for everything that goes wrong and then fail to acknowledge something that works.

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01-06-2009, 12:18 PM
  #33
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Bravo, I wish I had your patience, my response to "FLYLINE" wouldve been warning worthy
Heh, you mean the same line that was acutally kept together for over a month...havent seen that with the Rangers since the Straka - Nylander - Jagr line. Man that was awhile ago.....

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01-06-2009, 12:21 PM
  #34
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And here's the fundamental difference - you think that the players are crap and Renney's been working miracles with dreck. I think that the players are actually good and that the coach's moves (both in terms of lineup decisions and in-game strategy) are holding them back.
That is the fundamental difference.

Talent-wise, this squad is nowhere near a first-place team and I dont know how you can even attempt to argue otherwise.

I dont think anyone has said Renney is "working miracles," but in my mind, this team is above where it should be in the standings, and I do think he deserves credit for that.

Where is the talent on the wings after Zherdev and Naslund? Where is the first line center out of Gomez, Drury, and Dubinsky?

Yet, despite me complaining about the talent, and you complaining about the coaching, the team is in first place? I realize the players (well, most of them) aren't going anywhere...maybe its time for your to realize Renney isnt going anywhere anytime soon.

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01-06-2009, 12:21 PM
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Come on. You have to be fair with the guy. You can't kill him for everything that goes wrong and then fail to acknowledge something that works.
Im very fair with him when he lets does things right(which hasn’t been that often this season, ill be honest), but hes been changing lines every other game all season, and last season. Its hard to give him credit because he found a combo that worked good. He get acknowledged now if he lets the lines continue to work on chemistry for the next month without moving everyone after one bad game

Just he has been a bad coach, and the majority of the board can sees it. Players not playing well, no solution. Leaders not leading, no solution. Lines with no chemistry/no offense, no solution but to just mix and match and hope for the best. PP beyond horrible, no solution.

At some point you have to realize enough is enough and the team needs someone else to lead the team behind the bench, perfect time is now.

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01-06-2009, 12:26 PM
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That is the fundamental difference.

Talent-wise, this squad is nowhere near a first-place team and I dont know how you can even attempt to argue otherwise.

I dont think anyone has said Renney is "working miracles," but in my mind, this team is above where it should be in the standings, and I do think he deserves credit for that.

Where is the talent on the wings after Zherdev and Naslund? Where is the first line center out of Gomez, Drury, and Dubinsky?

Yet, despite me complaining about the talent, and you complaining about the coaching, the team is in first place? I realize the players (well, most of them) aren't going anywhere...maybe its time for your to realize Renney isnt going anywhere anytime soon.

Lundqvist says hello to you and gives you a look of disgust for not giving him credit for our unbealivable start. He only was pretty much the best goalie in the league 2 months in. Then he became average and we saw how good Renney's team is.

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01-06-2009, 12:29 PM
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And here's the fundamental difference - you think that the players are crap and Renney's been working miracles with dreck. I think that the players are actually good and that the coach's moves (both in terms of lineup decisions and in-game strategy) are holding them back.
Crap? Dreck? Never said that at all. They are a mediocre team that could grab the 8th seed, they're exceeding my expectations this year. He's a smart coach, he plays the odds and so far his record proves that.

His lineup decisions are not popular, big shock I know i know, but these are not exactly all stars out there, they have to work together a s group, if they don't you have to adjust.

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01-06-2009, 12:29 PM
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Why is the Voros for Korpikoski switch so questionable? Renney wanted size in the lineup and it was going to come at the expense of Prucha, Dawes, or Korpikoski. With the other 2 producing, Korps was the obvious choice to sit. I dont care that hes been "busting his ass" the last few games...He wasnt producing as well as the only 2 wingers, and the team was not playing well as a whole.

Its a shame you continue to ***** so much about Renney, cause you're really missing an interesting season in which a flawed roster with arguably ZERO first line talent is first in the Atlantic and 10 games over .500 at the halfway point. Ill stop short of asking you if Renney deserves any credit at all for this. By your own admission, you wont stop the whining until Renney is gone, which is a long ways away. Its a shame that you and the rest of the Renney bashers cant give him even an ounce of credit when his changes to the lineup helped produce the best group effort in a long time. Its an even bigger shame that you listen to one word that Stan Fischler has to say.
Again, blinded by what you want to see. Changes the lineup? So because he finally found a working combo after about 500 line combinations, while giving none a change to develop chemistry, he should be appluaded? Sorry.

Korpi has size, hes faster then Voros, he has more offensive skill then voros, and he has more defensive skill then voros. So why again was Voros in? Because he has size? Yea, he really used it on the nice stick to the face he gave the guy behind the net.

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01-06-2009, 12:30 PM
  #39
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Im very fair with him when he lets does things right(which hasn’t been that often this season, ill be honest), but hes been changing lines every other game all season, and last season. Its hard to give him credit because he found a combo that worked good. He get acknowledged now if he lets the lines continue to work on chemistry for the next month without moving everyone after one bad game

Just he has been a bad coach, and the majority of the board can sees it. Players not playing well, no solution. Leaders not leading, no solution. Lines with no chemistry/no offense, no solution but to just mix and match and hope for the best. PP beyond horrible, no solution.

At some point you have to realize enough is enough and the team needs someone else to lead the team behind the bench, perfect time is now.
Enough is enough? The Muckler/Lowe/Trottier/Sather days aren't that long ago.

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01-06-2009, 12:31 PM
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Crap? Dreck? Never said that at all. They are a mediocre team that could grab the 8th seed, they're exceeding my expectations this year. He's a smart coach, he plays the odds and so far his record proves that.

His lineup decisions are not popular, big shock I know i know, but these are not exactly all stars out there, they have to work together a s group, if they don't you have to adjust.
Exactly you said it.

They are not all stars. Which is why you need to have lines develop chemistry and have them feed off each other to be better then what they are.

Thank you, your seeing the light now

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01-06-2009, 12:32 PM
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Enough is enough? The Muckler/Lowe/Trottier/Sather days aren't that long ago.
Very irrelevant.

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01-06-2009, 12:34 PM
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Crap? Dreck? Never said that at all. They are a mediocre team that could grab the 8th seed, they're exceeding my expectations this year. He's a smart coach, he plays the odds and so far his record proves that.

His lineup decisions are not popular, big shock I know i know, but these are not exactly all stars out there, they have to work together a s group, if they don't you have to adjust.
And everyone this summer was prepared to take a step back after a big roster change and more young and unproven guys in the lineup.

I think the problem I have is too often the blame/hate/ venom is placed on the same cast of characters.

Nobody kills Dubinsky for his lack of production of late. Nobody kills Zherdev who hasn't scored recently. Nobody kills Girardi who's been mediocre of late.

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01-06-2009, 12:34 PM
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Very irrelevant.
Not really. Enough is enough of what exactly? Renney has gotten more out of his teams than any Ranger coach since Keenan.

This current team has no history. They did go through a huge overhaul this offseason. How do we know they're underachieving?

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01-06-2009, 12:37 PM
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Heh, you mean the same line that was acutally kept together for over a month...havent seen that with the Rangers since the Straka - Nylander - Jagr line. Man that was awhile ago.....
Yeah we have a ton of these kind of scorers on our current team

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01-06-2009, 12:38 PM
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Not really. Enough is enough of what exactly? Renney has gotten more out of his teams than any Ranger coach since Keenan.

This current team has no history. They did go through a huge overhaul this offseason. How do we know they're underachieving?
Its irrelevant since they are coaching different players. Who is to say Renney wouldn’t coach just as bad as Trots did with that team? Or Low wouldn’t coach just as well with this team?

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01-06-2009, 12:39 PM
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Its irrelevant since they are coaching different players. Who is to say Renney wouldn’t coach just as bad as Trots did with that team? Or Low wouldn’t coach just as well with this team?
Well you could say that all those teams were more talented than this one.

But you ignored an important question: how do we know this team is underachieving?

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01-06-2009, 12:39 PM
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And everyone this summer was prepared to take a step back after a big roster change and more young and unproven guys in the lineup.

I think the problem I have is too often the blame/hate/ venom is placed on the same cast of characters.

Nobody kills Dubinsky for his lack of production of late. Nobody kills Zherdev who hasn't scored recently. Nobody kills Girardi who's been mediocre of late.
Cause those guys are not making 7 million dollars, so how are they accountable?

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01-06-2009, 12:47 PM
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Again, blinded by what you want to see.
Thats funny...no,no its actually hilarious.

I happen to give this team and its coaching staff a chance every time they take the ice. Today, after one of the better games all season, you insist that Renney must be fired and theres no better time then right now. This is a coach thats led the team to 3 straight playoff berths and has them 10 games over .500 and first place in the division at the halfway point of season #4. Im sorry if the team isnt playing perfectly enough for you night in and night out, but to CONSTANTLY call for the coaches head at this time borders on lunacy, especially when you consider where this franchise has been.

Now, tell me again, whose the one blinded by what they want to see?

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01-06-2009, 12:50 PM
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That is the fundamental difference.

Talent-wise, this squad is nowhere near a first-place team and I dont know how you can even attempt to argue otherwise.
I dont think anyone has said Renney is "working miracles," but in my mind, this team is above where it should be in the standings, and I do think he deserves credit for that.

Where is the talent on the wings after Zherdev and Naslund? Where is the first line center out of Gomez, Drury, and Dubinsky?

Yet, despite me complaining about the talent, and you complaining about the coaching, the team is in first place? I realize the players (well, most of them) aren't going anywhere...maybe its time for your to realize Renney isnt going anywhere anytime soon.
Talent-wise they have nowhere near an all-star forward. That is true. But I think a lot of people confuse that with not having a talented roster.

But the overall team talent is actually pretty good in my opinion. The goalie is arguably the best in the league. The defense is arguably the best 1 through 6. And the forward talent, while not packed with Crosbys and Malkins, are very deep with quality.

We don't see a lot of goals being scored, because a) the team has like 6 quality scoring chances a game due to Renney's system and b) he can't keep players together for more than 2 games in a row. I'm not saying that a different coach would turn this team into the Oilers from the 80s, but I'm saying that he would turn them into a more balanced, more dangerous and ultimately more successful team.

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01-06-2009, 12:59 PM
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Singn'..

to be fair, Renney has had far better teams than 1998-200-something (and Campbell's teams made it to the second rounds, at least, in his first three seasons and his 1997 playoff run was done with a rash of injuries and lines that resembled today's Renney's lines). Even in the dark days of Low there were times of excitement when the guys on ice resembled a team with the main components being goaltending that didn't suck and at least one line that could lead the way. So to bring up the dark days and compare them to today (and Renney) isn't quite fair when this team has had good goaltending for the last few seasons and for at least three seasons had a real threat of a top line. It's not apples and apples; at least in my opinion it's not.

But more to the points...Renney cannot win with the crowd, and it's funny because the facts can be spun in any way to make the person feel as though they are winning the argument. One can argue that this team's personnel is good, but the coach isn't getting the most out of it. Another can argue that this team is flawed in its construction and the coach is maximizing their output. Funny how this all works. Personally, I think it's somewhere in the middle, and at this point, I'm leaning a little to the right (towards Renney), but not fully there.

I was there at the beginning lamenting the structure of this team. I thought this team would struggle to score goals. I thought this team would struggle on defense and would need Lundqvist to bail them out. That's where I was at the beginning of the season. Where this team is right now is ahead of my expectation and I have to put a lot of that on the coach. How can I not do that? I can talk about how the fast start put this team where it is now. There's tons of merit to that and over the last two months this team has been mostly so-so. Fine, people will concentrate on the last two months and say that's the real team, but because the coach prepared his team better than the Lightning and others, he got this team off to a quick start that still sees them in first place. Games in October count towards the end of season tally. While Lundqvist did stand on his head for many of those games as he faced more shots than he had in the last few years, the team that's flawed in its construction from its top line to defense is still in first place in January - and it's not solely from being carried by its mediocre goaltending the last month or so.

I have my differences with Renney. He's done a lot to make me scratch my head. I think he had the benefit of some nice rosters the last three seasons, and that's very helpful in making a coach look good, or his system. And I've never thought he was a bad coach, just not a great coach, and actually a good coach. I continue to think that, but I can't say I'm upset where this mish-mash of a team without real leaders, consistent stars, etc., is right now. Where they go from here...that's the challenge. But I do believe that this team, even flawed in its construction, is a playoff team (having seen the other teams this season, I've raised my expectation) and still hope for the playoffs.

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