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Toronto - Carolina ( Kaberle included )

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Old
01-10-2009, 10:41 PM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bosh Pit View Post
Cool. I want Eric Staal then. How much do we have to pay? Are we in the Jamal Mayers ball park or the 2010 7th round pick ball park?
He's not a Canes fan. Please don't lump him in with us.

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01-10-2009, 10:56 PM
  #77
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sorry to the other canes fans but i dont doubt for a second sutter could be sacrificed for kaberle, and i wouldt mind it either. to say he is brindy's replacement is joke, he has none of brindy's offense and isnt close to being brindy in his defensive zone now, and while its possible to even make the comparison defensively its certainly a big stretch to say he will get there and i dont think he will be close.

i think the value for stud sell offs is a 1st, a prospect/youngster and a roster player is legit, and some of the offers would fit that. 1st, larose and a young player could get it done, the debate is the young player of course, and i dont think they would not trade sutter, jr has never shied from giving up the future for the now - its his mantra and any canes fans shouldnt need to be told that from 1927, its your own team, how can you not know that by now? jr will trade sutter in a heartbeat if he thinks it will win the cup, tho to be honest i think because of his love for bloodlines and the inability to appreciate the need for skill i think boychuk could go before sutter.

i do think a 1st, larose and sutter is too much for kaberle until i see another team beat it, but i think jr would do it. i agree he should bring a big return, but i dont want the canes to do it without seeing other teams step up to do the same.

for all the critics of canes fans....we dont all think kaberle can be had for a bag of pucks, and some of know of course sutter could be traded and i know for a fact a LOT of canes fans ridiculously overate him. we dont get a lot of young homegrown forwards, so as fans we cling to them desperately. i think sutter will be lucky to be more than a checking center, i hope he gets there but i havent seen anything in his game to support the hype. he pays attention to his own end, and is generally intelligent but lacks puck skills and that will hold him back till he develops it, canes fans forget that to be a two way threat you have to be able to at least occasionally score...and sutter is far from being a threat offensively with any consistency.

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01-11-2009, 02:07 AM
  #78
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Because clearly, you can really evaluate Sutter's ability and how his future's going to play ouy with the 2 minutes of icetime he's getting a night.

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01-11-2009, 02:38 AM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bleedgreen View Post
to say he is brindy's replacement is joke, he has none of brindy's offense and isnt close to being brindy in his defensive zone now,
Kaberle isn't close to Pronger or Lidstrom in the defensive zone either. Noticed you didn't have a problem with those assumptions when they suited your purpose.

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01-11-2009, 08:53 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Blueline Bomber View Post
Because clearly, you can really evaluate Sutter's ability and how his future's going to play ouy with the 2 minutes of icetime he's getting a night.
Go to wiki or wherever you get your stats and check out brindy's stats at 19ish come back an tell m how there is any comparison to sutter there. At all. Brindy was at a whole other level from day one. That's the point I'm making. Not to mention sutter was getting plenty of icetime earlier in the season, plenty to get an idea of where he is at right now.

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01-11-2009, 08:55 AM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nogoalov View Post
Kaberle isn't close to Pronger or Lidstrom in the defensive zone either. Noticed you didn't have a problem with those assumptions when they suited your purpose.
What was my purpose?

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01-11-2009, 10:02 AM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nogoalov View Post
Kaberle isn't close to Pronger or Lidstrom in the defensive zone either. Noticed you didn't have a problem with those assumptions when they suited your purpose.
Your point is irrelevant because Kaberle > Sutter.

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01-11-2009, 10:14 AM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bleedgreen View Post
i think the value for stud sell offs is a 1st, a prospect/youngster and a roster player is legit, and some of the offers would fit that. 1st, larose and a young player could get it done, the debate is the young player of course, and i dont think they would not trade sutter, jr has never shied from giving up the future for the now - its his mantra and any canes fans shouldnt need to be told that from 1927, its your own team, how can you not know that by now? jr will trade sutter in a heartbeat if he thinks it will win the cup, tho to be honest i think because of his love for bloodlines and the inability to appreciate the need for skill i think boychuk could go before sutter.
I agree that Sutter is hardly untouchable but what you and 1927, at least initially in his case, overlooked is context and circumstance.

Simply that Sutter would not be traded in a package for T. Kaberle. It makes no sense for any of number of reasons - Kaberle isn't going to make the Canes Cup contenders, the proposed deal adds way too much salary for a team already over budget with less than stellar attendance, the organization is actually quite deep on D especially with puck-moving guys, etc.

If Sutter could be packaged for a legit playmaking second-line center - Brindy at this stage isn't one and neither is Matt Cullen whose value is down now that he isn't used on the first unit PP at point - along with a high-priced vet to help balance contracts, then it gets closer to reality. Since Maurice came on board the D has been much improved, the last 2 games notwithstanding, but there is a dearth of playmakers. They are way down the list on team assists and consistently struggle to finish and score 5-on-5. That's the most pressing need on this team, not getting another offensive D-man.


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01-11-2009, 10:41 AM
  #84
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I wouldn't argue with you at all on that stormcast, I'm
Just talking about what's fair for kaberles value, just that suttee is fair game if this is the way the canes went. I agree they probably wouldn't go for kaberle, tho I think he is good enough to justify it and them move one of corvo or pitts. I think boychuk will go before sutter cuz jr loves sutter obviously. My point is overall he isn't untouchable if it was for someone jr deems helps win the cup this year, and not for dramatic overpayment back our way. I think as a group we go overboard on sutters value for what the team needs....skill like boychuk has.

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01-11-2009, 11:03 AM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bleedgreen View Post
I wouldn't argue with you at all on that stormcast, I'm
Just talking about what's fair for kaberles value, just that suttee is fair game if this is the way the canes went. I agree they probably wouldn't go for kaberle, tho I think he is good enough to justify it and them move one of corvo or pitts. I think boychuk will go before sutter cuz jr loves sutter obviously. My point is overall he isn't untouchable if it was for someone jr deems helps win the cup this year, and not for dramatic overpayment back our way. I think as a group we go overboard on sutters value for what the team needs....skill like boychuk has.
Agreed that Sutter is overvalued by many. He is definitely a smart, savvy player especially for his age but his skill set projects closer to Kevyn Adams than to Brindy at this time. I think he will get better over time than Adams but his name does help in his overvaluation, just as I think is true but to a different extent with Jordan Staal.

If the Canes needed to make a move, I'd move him before Boychuk or even Bowman because his value would be oversold based on his potential and name. When he fully develops (checking center is his target with what I consider to be below average hands and offensive instincts) would be easier to replace in terms of contribution than a skilled center like Boychuk or a potential second-line sniper in Bowman.

But if the Canes miss the playoffs again this year, there will be even greater value attached to these young guys as they will be cheap and the Cullens and other guys will be shipped out.

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01-11-2009, 11:52 PM
  #86
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No way does Carolina trade Chad Larose for that scrub Thomas Kaberle. On any other team, Kaberle would be a #10 defenseman, at best.









since the last time I posted something like this someone took me seriously.

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01-12-2009, 06:08 AM
  #87
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I didn't know Hurricane fans were delusional.
I didn't know you can't count. Only ONE poster said something completely delusional. So using "fans" isn't right. Lumping us all together for something dumb one poster said isn't too bright, but whatever makes you feel better about yourself and your hockey knowledge in comparison to ours.

Also, I can't believe our posters making K. Adams comparisons for Sutter just because he hasn't shown much offensive skill while he plays on the 4TH LINE 5-10 minutes a night with scrubs his 1st freaking year in the NHL. I'd wait until he gets to actually play with proven NHLers, rather than fringe NHLers, before I make judgments on his offensive talents and comparisons to other NHL players. But hey, that's just me. I don't think he'll be as good offensively as Brindy was, but defensively he has a good shot and I wouldn't be surprised to see him score 40-60 pts regularly throughout his career. I honestly think some of you are focusing way too much on his numbers from junior. He played for a crappy Red Deer team in the most defensive minded CHL league in Canada, all while he was still filling out his frame. It's way too early to judge the kid or compare him to another NHLer.


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01-12-2009, 07:41 AM
  #88
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^^^ It's true. Sutter gets almost no time on the ice with any offensive minded players. But his defensive game is becoming so polished that he's regularly play top mintues on the first pk. He might not put up the numbers like Brind'amour did but he's certainly headed for a better career than K. Ads. No disrespect though.

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01-12-2009, 07:42 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Caner Soze View Post
Also, I can't believe our posters making K. Adams comparisons for Sutter just because he hasn't shown much offensive skill while he plays on the 4TH LINE 5-10 minutes a night with scrubs his 1st freaking year in the NHL. I'd wait until he gets to actually play with proven NHLers, rather than fringe NHLers, before I make judgments on his offensive talents and comparisons to other NHL players. But hey, that's just me. I don't think he'll be as good offensively as Brindy was, but defensively he has a good shot and I wouldn't be surprised to see him score 40-60 pts regularly throughout his career. I honestly think some of you are focusing way too much on his numbers from junior. He played for a crappy Red Deer team in the most defensive minded CHL league in Canada, all while he was still filling out his frame. It's way too early to judge the kid or compare him to another NHLer.
You may want to take time to reread what I wrote which was "his skill set projects closer to Kevyn Adams than to Brindy at this time. I think he will get better over time than Adams..."

The point being that he will project closer to a grinding checking center than a two-way player who can also put up tons of points like Brindy has in his career. I see Sutter as a 30-40 point/year a guy which, as I stated puts him closer to (but better than) Adams than Brind'Amour.

That has nothing to do with his numbers with Red Deer and everything to do with his offensive instincts and ability to finish. It doesn't matter who he plays with, as my opinion also derives from what I've seen from him in international play.

Kevyn Adams, which surprises some, was also a first round pick but never could score enough or show the playmaking ability to get into the top 6. He busted his tail on every shift, was defensively responsible and a great contributor on the PK. But his hands, puck-handling and finishing skills were suspect, as are Sutter's. As stated, I think Sutter will improve and be better than Adams but those skill sets aren't going to dramatically improve for Sutter.

That hardly means I am writing him off, a 3rd line checking center who can average a point every other game is quite valuable, but I do think too many people have unrealistic expectations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TRAINIAC View Post
Sutter gets almost no time on the ice with any offensive minded players. But his defensive game is becoming so polished that he's regularly play top mintues on the first pk. He might not put up the numbers like Brind'amour did but he's certainly headed for a better career than K. Ads. No disrespect though.
Nobody has said he wouldn't be better than Kevyn Adams.

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01-12-2009, 09:04 AM
  #90
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Hey, Sutter has shown glimmers of a killer playmaking ability!

He made Chad Larose finish for ****s sake!

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01-12-2009, 10:30 PM
  #91
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Here is my take on Brandon Sutter. I posted the same thought process before the season and I still have the same train of thought. I think it's a fair assumption for the most part. It will be interesting a few years down the road when we have clear image of what Brandon Sutter will be all about. Only then will this story be told.


I am the type of guy that believes defensive players in the NHL are just as important as your offensive players. You will always find your run in the mill guys who can go out and crash and bang, kill penalties, etc. However, there is guys out there who seem to go a bit beyond that in their own way. They come along into the league every so often and when you have the opportunity to have one, you take it and you keep it.

I don't believe Brandon Sutter will ever be a top 6 forward in the NHL. I don't believe Brandon Sutter is Rod Brind'Amours replacement. I just don't see it. Simply put, the offense is not there. For all my years watching hockey, seeing young kids go through the junior ranks and continue on into the NHL, you can generally tell when a player has an essence to his game that will make him worthy of that certain aspect. Some things are taught and learned over time, some things come natural. I don't believe Brandon Sutter will be 30 goal scorer. I don't believe Brandon Sutter will ever be a point per game player. Therefore, I don't believe Brandon Sutter will ever be a top 6 forward in the NHL.

Here is what I do believe & most certainly hope for. I don't think it's a far cry from what could be.


Brandon Sutter's game reminds be of a certain player in the NHL today. Kris Draper. Do I see it all right now? No. But I see flashes of what could be with Brandon and it draws me to the game of Kris Draper. He'll never lead your team in points. He'll never be a top 6 forward. He'll never win any scoring titles and chances are you aren't going to see this player on highlite reals too often. I am a firm believer that defensive specialists, guys who the defensive aspect of the game simply comes natural to them, almost without thinking, are a rare gem. I don't think you will find many Wings fans who don't believe Kris Draper is and has been a cornerstone of the Detroit Red Wings since the beginning of his time. In essence, he has been a franchise player for Detroit in his own regard for the game he plays. Like I said above, there are guys who come in and out of this league who can hit, kill penalties and play the checking line role, but they're not even close to standing in the same shadow as Kris Draper. Defensive guys on a hockey team in my mind are just as important as your front line scorers. The difference is simple. Their game is not flashy and it takes a lot of blood, sweat, tears, stitches and icebags to get recognition for it. You won't ever win a Stanley Cup without defence. But like anything, within time, the great ones always prevail. I believe in time Brandon Sutter can be that guy in the NHL.

I see guys in the NHL such as Brandon Sutter as building blocks to a franchise. Cornerstones if you will. You're always going to have your franchise goaltender, your franchise defenceman your franchise forward. Then there is that rare other guy who can do his job endlessly season upon season, your franchise checking line center. Sounds kind of funny doesn't it? I am quite sure if you ask a Wings fan what I am talking about, they'll know. I am quite sure if you ask a Devils fan, they'll say yes, his name is John Madden. They come along every so often it's almost rare to get your hands on the good ones. I believe in years down the road, Brandon Sutter will be that guy. Not everyone will look at it like that, but it's the way I do.

Brandon Sutter is the guy to me in my mind who you will tap on the shoulder to be on the ice in the last minute of a game where you're leading 2-1. The first guy to hop over the boards to kill off a penalty. If you want to add a spark to the team, you know where you can find heart, determination, the will to fight and desire to win. There have been a couple times this season where Sutter is lining up to take a faceoff on a penalty kill only to look over his shoulder and tell a fellow teammate where to stand, where he wants him. I have seen it a couple times and when I do, I have to look twice. My first thought is, Brind'Amour. My second thought is, wow.. that was a 19 year old kid. When Brandon fills out his frame to about 200 pounds he'll be a much more dominant forward for the game he plays. What you see now is a 19 year old who is learning the NHL game. When he grasps it, for me, I believe it will be a treat to watch. It is a work in progress. Players such as Sutter don't just come into the league and become great from day one. However the ability he shows today leads me to believe he will be great at what he does tomorrow. I wouldn't count him out for a Selke at some point throughout his career. It takes time. It takes some development. Eric Staal scored 11 goals in his rookie campaign only to turn into the Franchise top line centerman a couple years later that he was originally drafted to be. You can't read one chapter of the book and tell someone how it's going to end. It just doesn't work that way. I believe Sutter can be a consistent 25-40 point player one day. Which is good for the style of game he plays and I believe the style of game that will make him known for. Offensively I see him at 10-15 goals average. I think he could see 20-25 goals a couple days in his career, but I don't believe it will be on a consistent basis. Like I said, once he fills out there will be a lot of things that come easier for him. He's already got the smarts, patience and poise. He knows where to be on the ice and his defensive game as a rookie is quite impressive.

Only time will tell with yet another young player. It'll sure be interesting to look back on in a few years and see where he is at.


Bleedgreen, as another fellow Canes' fan, where do you yourself see Brandon Sutter more so in the long run of things? I'm just interested to know you're train of thought. Always enjoy reading your perspective on things.


Last edited by Guerzy: 01-12-2009 at 10:42 PM.
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01-14-2009, 01:34 PM
  #92
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sorry guerzy i missed your post when this thread got buried.

my take on sutter. well i take a beating on the canes board but for the life of me dont see him being legit for the nhl right now. ive NEVER seen a player improve at the age of 19 playing fourth line minutes + pk in the nhl. if this is all they had in mind for him why do it at all? you cant tell me he is playing a big role for the team, and that he has a say in whether or not we are a playoff team or not. he plays basically the same role as ryan bayda, and to me that is a mistake. of course he is smart enough to play a defensive role, that has never been questioned, it is his offensive game that looks weak, as well as his physique and overall strength. he has heart and positioning, thats it at this point. i think by saying "well he's not an offensive player so lets use him now in his true role", is the most ludicrous thing i can think of. its selling his career short, because i think he does have some of that in his game, it just needs some serious polish. how is this EVER going to improve from the role he has now? if they left him in junior he would be used in all situations, and would have time to build some sort of skill level and confidence with the puck that could help him evolve into much more well rounded player. his defensive play is there, it isnt going anywhere, it would be intact when he got here next year, or the year after. the whole "he didnt have anything left to gain from junior" is the most embarrassing thing ive heard out of canes fans mouths this year...or last. a guy who wasnt even a point per game player in junior has nothing left for him in junior? are you high? he's gonna jump to the nhl without enough skill to be a ppg'er at 19? why? if he was a typical fourth round pick grinder with the same skill set and brains we wouldnt have seen him for three years, but because he is a sutter and a first rounder he has a role better filled by bigger, stronger, cheaper, older men who would be playing their true role.

he isnt strong enough, he gets tossed around on innocent bumps and grinding in the corners - despite impressive hustle and good sense with the puck when he does get it. his shot is non existent - it has no power, slow release, just not threatening. his first goal against fluery was a weak fluttering backhand from 15 feet out that must have surprised fluery, it was a seeing eye puck. im pumped he got a sweet goal for his first but jeebus, someone teach the kid to shoot. he has had much less confidence with the puck on the rush since being clobbered, which is to be expected, and a whole other chapter imo of why he shouldnt be here but ill let that dog lie.

i think he could be a legit no 3 center, maybe even a number 2 - but he wont ever get there because of his development imo being hampered right now. he will likely still at least be given the third line, and he has a chance at being good at it - though im not convinced he isnt a better winger at this point. his skating reminds me of staals lanky slow stride, he doesnt bend his knees enough, he needs work on puck handling and shooting and he definitely needs time to fill out. i dont think its a weight room issue here, its a body maturity thing. he is a tall lanky kid who will need years to fill out and get his man strength. i think he belonged in the minors for a year past this one to be honest, like every single other player of his ilk, but what is done is done and i hope he comes along better than most would in his situation. i think he will be a solid third liner in the mold of ethan moreau, or trevor linden without the early days scoring touch. i dont think he will ever have drapers wheels to be honest, but style wise your on the right track. i really like the two guys i mentioned, somewhere between moreau and linden. the brindy comparison is awful, brindy was a scorer from day one. i dont think he will ever get to lindens offensive peak by any stretch either, but linden in the 40 pt range? sure. maybe kesler like?

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01-14-2009, 02:04 PM
  #93
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Awesome read Bleedgreen. Thanks for the reply.

Nothing in your post I can disagree with, I'll say that. I remember back I believe in August there was discussion surrounding Sutter on the Canes' board and we looked at his development pretty eye to eye. It wasn't a popular opinion, but I believe and still believe it is the right one.

I am not a fan right now nor have I ever been a fan of how Jim Rutherford puts a 'rush order' on our prospects. Staal, Ladd, Ward, if he could have he would have with Jack Johnson. Tried with Boychuk and in the process with Sutter. Six 1st round picks since 2002 that have made their way too soon for my liking. Some of them hurt by it, others slowed, others in the process. I don't like it and I never will. I am a firm believer in giving young kids time to develop.


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01-14-2009, 02:29 PM
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caner Soze View Post
No thanks. Sutter will replace Brindy one day, plus we need our 1st. We already have a logjam on D. I like Kaberle but this trade makes no sense at all, really.
Brindy!?

Why dont you guys just make out already?

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