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An article from Pittsburgh on contraction issue

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03-07-2004, 04:00 AM
  #1
craig1
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An article from Pittsburgh on contraction issue

.....One that finally tells it like it is!!

http://www.postgazette.com/pg/04067/281894.stm

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03-07-2004, 04:04 AM
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ExplosiveLEAFman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig1
.....One that finally tells it like it is!!

http://www.postgazette.com/pg/04067/281894.stm


That article isn't to be taken seriously. A fifth grader could come up with a more precise argument. The Penguins shouldn't be contracted but comparing them to the Rangers is absurd.

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03-07-2004, 04:12 AM
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craig1
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The Rangers have shed $18 million in payroll in a few days. The Pens have not shed that much in 2 1/2 years. Washington has shed more in a few weeks than the Pens in 2 1/2 years.....Where's everyone crying for them to be folded? They shouldn't be, but that's the point. Now that people realize the NHL is broken, and the Pens were ahead of the curve, noone is screaming about folding teams that are dumping drastically. Yet, people are still referring to the Pens (Who are one of the better performing teams financially) to be contracted or moved? Why is that?

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03-07-2004, 05:13 AM
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Easy, people love to hate the pens because they're AWESOME!!!!!

Pens #1

LETS GO PENS!!

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03-07-2004, 07:38 AM
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ExplosiveLEAFman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig1
The Rangers have shed $18 million in payroll in a few days. The Pens have not shed that much in 2 1/2 years. Washington has shed more in a few weeks than the Pens in 2 1/2 years.....Where's everyone crying for them to be folded? They shouldn't be, but that's the point. Now that people realize the NHL is broken, and the Pens were ahead of the curve, noone is screaming about folding teams that are dumping drastically. Yet, people are still referring to the Pens (Who are one of the better performing teams financially) to be contracted or moved? Why is that?

The Rangers and Caps shed payroll because their teams sucked. If either team had any chance at a cup, the firesales would not have happened. Those teams can afford to spend money even if it means they don't make a profit, the Pens can't. The Pens are one of the last teams in the league who should be considered for contraction simply because of their longevity. But you can only blame high player salaries for you own mismanagement for so long.

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03-07-2004, 08:50 AM
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Good article. In no way do I want to see NHL contraction. Rather, what I want to see is fiscal sanity which probably should include some sort of revenue sharing along he lines of the NFL. The NHL is the only major league sport with a significant presence in both the U.S. and Canada. I want it to remain that way. Sports like NASCAR realize the importance of transforming themselves from being a regional sport to having a national presence. The NHL is no different.

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03-07-2004, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by explosivethinman
The Rangers and Caps shed payroll because their teams sucked. If either team had any chance at a cup, the firesales would not have happened. Those teams can afford to spend money even if it means they don't make a profit, the Pens can't. The Pens are one of the last teams in the league who should be considered for contraction simply because of their longevity. But you can only blame high player salaries for you own mismanagement for so long.


Hey explosivethinman, for the longest time I was one of the blind Pittsburgh fans that would bash Craig Patrick, Mario Lemiuex, and his group of investors every chance I would get. But as of about 6 months ago I seen the light on the whole CBA issue.
Now let me tell you, that article by Dejan was dead on accurate, word for word.

And I just have 2 wodrs for you, and please read them carefully and uderstand them.
SHUTTTTTT UPPPPPPPPPP!!!!!!!!!!!

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03-07-2004, 09:31 AM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmy page
Hey explosivethinman, for the longest time I was one of the blind Pittsburgh fans that would bash Craig Patrick, Mario Lemiuex, and his group of investors every chance I would get. But as of about 6 months ago I seen the light on the whole CBA issue.
Now let me tell you, that article by Dejan was dead on accurate, word for word.

And I just have 2 wodrs for you, and please read them carefully and uderstand them.
SHUTTTTTT UPPPPPPPPPP!!!!!!!!!!!

Nice, well thought out, intelligent reply there, Jimmy. There was nothing dead on or acccurate about that article. It was dogma in the sickest sense. I can understand that Pittsburgh fans get a little offended when their team has been mentioned for contraction but pulling something out of thin air, like that article, won't help any.

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03-07-2004, 09:41 AM
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It's an interesting subject, but that article is trash.

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03-07-2004, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by explosivethinman
Nice, well thought out, intelligent reply there, Jimmy. There was nothing dead on or acccurate about that article. It was dogma in the sickest sense. I can understand that Pittsburgh fans get a little offended when their team has been mentioned for contraction but pulling something out of thin air, like that article, won't help any.

I guess your a Ranger fan?
Don't you realize that it's organizations like the Rangers that NHL is in shambles the way that it is.
You know the funny thing is after signing all these superstars, The Rangers still can't even sniff the playoffs.

And to tell you the truth, that makes the small market fans laugh "ALOT LOUDER AND HARDER" than it makes the larger market teams laugh and joke about the clubs that can barely keep thier heads above water.

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03-07-2004, 12:22 PM
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Wait, so the Caps and Rangers couldn't win those Cups with their teams but the Pens could have????????

Anyone pay attention two years ago? We had pretty much everyone and they still failed to even make the playoffs. They couldn't win either (just like the Caps and Rangers of today), so they rebuilt. Same thing as what both the Rangers and Caps are doing, as far as hockey operations are concerned. Finances and circumstances are different, but the team still couldn't win. (Hint: No defense and goaltending doesn't help you).

So therefore, the situations are similar as far as the team's success, and the article, whether you read it or understood it, is good.

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03-07-2004, 12:53 PM
  #12
ExplosiveLEAFman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmy page
I guess your a Ranger fan?
Don't you realize that it's organizations like the Rangers that NHL is in shambles the way that it is.
You know the funny thing is after signing all these superstars, The Rangers still can't even sniff the playoffs.

And to tell you the truth, that makes the small market fans laugh "ALOT LOUDER AND HARDER" than it makes the larger market teams laugh and joke about the clubs that can barely keep thier heads above water.

I'm a Thrasher fan so I have no bias towards the Rangers or against the Penguins. Your post says what I had already hinted at before, the article and those who enjoyed it is nothing more than laughing at those who have already laughed at you. The article is good rhetoric and nothing more. I'm glad you can get some enjoyment from the recent Ranger trades, but again it does little to put a positive spin on the current Penguin situation.

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03-07-2004, 12:59 PM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrKnowNothing
Wait, so the Caps and Rangers couldn't win those Cups with their teams but the Pens could have????????

Anyone pay attention two years ago? We had pretty much everyone and they still failed to even make the playoffs. They couldn't win either (just like the Caps and Rangers of today), so they rebuilt. Same thing as what both the Rangers and Caps are doing, as far as hockey operations are concerned. Finances and circumstances are different, but the team still couldn't win. (Hint: No defense and goaltending doesn't help you).

So therefore, the situations are similar as far as the team's success, and the article, whether you read it or understood it, is good.
The situations aren't similar because both the Rangers and the Capitals wouldn't have traded away those players if they had a legit shot at the cup. The Penguins of two years ago couldn't have kept those players even if they were winning five out of every six games. The Penguins can't compete financially under the current system, both the Rangers and Caps can.

The fact that the three teams being discussed weren't winning doesn't make the situations similiar, they are completely different.

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03-07-2004, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rooselk
Good article. In no way do I want to see NHL contraction. Rather, what I want to see is fiscal sanity which probably should include some sort of revenue sharing along he lines of the NFL. The NHL is the only major league sport with a significant presence in both the U.S. and Canada. I want it to remain that way. Sports like NASCAR realize the importance of transforming themselves from being a regional sport to having a national presence. The NHL is no different.
Correct me if i'm wrong, but the NFL doesn't share revenues. They do have a salary cap and share a $2 billion per year from TV contract. (each team makes $70M from the TV deal, and coincidentally the salary cap is, i believe $80M)

I do agree that the NHL needs to start attracting a larger audience.

Its kinda sad because Bettman has tried to expand the tv audience with his actions, but has only alienated some NHL fans, and has ultimately decreased interest for the NHL.

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03-07-2004, 01:47 PM
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The article pretty much says that the Pens started doing a year ago, with shedding Kovalev, that some teams are jsut starting to do now for the same reasons. All 3 teams knew they weren't going to make it to the Finals, and decided it'd be best to prepare for after the CBA.

Would you rather the Penguins have pretend they had a legitimate shot at the playoffs, paid millions more in player contracts, still missed the playoffs, and gotten a lower draft pick? What's teh sense in that? You're going into what could be the final year of hockey before a work stoppage and eventual salary cap, with a team that has the ability to do no more than compete for 10th in the playoff standigs, so what do you do? Shed your expensive players (you don't need them) get your prospects some play time (they do need it) and get so far under the cap that when the new CBA comes out you'll be free to sign all the players whose contracts were bought out to get under the salary cap. Under these circumstances, the Pens could field a playoff team when hockey resumes. In a few years after that they could compete for the Cup.

The Pens were just criticized for doing early what some teams are doing just now. That's pretty much what the entire article says.

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03-07-2004, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by explosivethinman
The situations aren't similar because both the Rangers and the Capitals wouldn't have traded away those players if they had a legit shot at the cup. The Penguins of two years ago couldn't have kept those players even if they were winning five out of every six games. The Penguins can't compete financially under the current system, both the Rangers and Caps can.

The fact that the three teams being discussed weren't winning doesn't make the situations similiar, they are completely different.
Even if. They weren't. They sucked. And they couldn't win a Cup. Period, end of discussion.

They offered contracts to Kovalev before he was dealt. Five years for 4 or 5 million a year. So no one really knows that when they have to resign Malone, Fleury etc they won't be able to pay them or not.

I know you've already said you're against contraction earlier, so we're both right.

But the comparisons are valid because none of the three teams could win a Cup. Plain and simple, forget the financial situations, cities, and owners. Look at the rosters and the moves made, and Kovacevic's comparison is valid.

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03-07-2004, 03:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by explosivethinman
The Rangers and Caps shed payroll because their teams sucked. If either team had any chance at a cup, the firesales would not have happened. Those teams can afford to spend money even if it means they don't make a profit, the Pens can't. The Pens are one of the last teams in the league who should be considered for contraction simply because of their longevity. But you can only blame high player salaries for you own mismanagement for so long.

give us a new arena, and we will have one of the best teams garantied... and people like you will look like fools...
people forget that the Penguins' is the ONLY!!!! arena with no luxury boxes and thus don't get that extra 45% of revenue that ALLLLLL the other teams get. We're not talking about attendance here, we're talking about something that our old arena doesn't have...
Plain and simple.
The Penguins will be a contender if we get a new arena...

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03-07-2004, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr. kØUkLØs
give us a new arena, and we will have one of the best teams garantied... and people like you will look like fools...
people forget that the Penguins' is the ONLY!!!! arena with no luxury boxes and thus don't get that extra 45% of revenue that ALLLLLL the other teams get. We're not talking about attendance here, we're talking about something that our old arena doesn't have...
Plain and simple.
The Penguins will be a contender if we get a new arena...
The Tigers were saying the same thing before they built Comerica Park, ie a new building does not guarantee success. The extra revenue only helps if the owner is willing to spend the money as well as hiring the right people to run the show.

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03-07-2004, 03:52 PM
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You can't compare baseball to Hockey. Baseball doesn't and won't have a salary cap. By the time a new Pens arena would be built, there'd be a salary cap.

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03-07-2004, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spooner
The article pretty much says that the Pens started doing a year ago, with shedding Kovalev, that some teams are jsut starting to do now for the same reasons.
That's the problem with the article. The deals aren't being made for exactly the same reasons. The Pens deals are entirely financially driven whereas the Rangers and Caps moves have been driven by both hockey and financial reasons. That severely limits what the Pens can get in return. Everyone knows they can't play hardball and keep the player and they can't take back any salary. The Pens had to sell off some players for garbage while the Rangers and Caps are getting decent returns that will help in the future.

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03-07-2004, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffaloed
That's the problem with the article. The deals aren't being made for exactly the same reasons. The Pens deals are entirely financially driven whereas the Rangers and Caps moves have been driven by both hockey and financial reasons. That severely limits what the Pens can get in return. Everyone knows they can't play hardball and keep the player and they can't take back any salary. The Pens had to sell off some players for garbage while the Rangers and Caps are getting decent returns that will help in the future.

The Pens got "good prospects" for Jagr, between Beech Sivek and Lupuschuk that was a first rounder and 2 2nd rounders all 3 within the first 34 players drafted, they just havent turned out to be what we hoped. there is no way to tell if the prospects and Picks the Rags got will be any better or any worse than what the pens got for at least a few years

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03-07-2004, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Spooner
You can't compare baseball to Hockey. Baseball doesn't and won't have a salary cap. By the time a new Pens arena would be built, there'd be a salary cap.
A salary cap doesn't have anything to do with it, a new arena won't guarantee anything, except that it's a new arena. The team will still need to float a decent team and you do that through wise drafting and good trades.

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03-07-2004, 04:31 PM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffaloed
The Pens had to sell off some players for garbage while the Rangers and Caps are getting decent returns that will help in the future.

When's the last good plyer that came up through the Rangers organization?
I've been a huge hockey fan for over 20 years and I can honestly tell you that I can't remember.
The reason is that The Rangers org. from the team, to the media, to the fans is one gigantic pressure cooker. And if a young player doesn't play like the 2nd coming of Teemu Selanne in his rookie season, the guy gets buried with insulting critisms and gets his confidence destroyed. Then the young player either gets lost in the minors or gets traded with draft picks or something for bonafide player.
To be honest, I have no clue on who the prospects are that The Rangers got for, Kovy, Nedved, Leetch, etc., but if I were a betting man I'd bet they never make it with NY. They'll either never make it permantly in the NHL or make it with another team.


I

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03-07-2004, 04:33 PM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guinness
A salary cap doesn't have anything to do with it, a new arena won't guarantee anything, except that it's a new arena. The team will still need to float a decent team and you do that through wise drafting and good trades.

I agree 100%.

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03-07-2004, 04:45 PM
  #25
DJ Spinoza
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffaloed
That's the problem with the article. The deals aren't being made for exactly the same reasons. The Pens deals are entirely financially driven whereas the Rangers and Caps moves have been driven by both hockey and financial reasons. That severely limits what the Pens can get in return. Everyone knows they can't play hardball and keep the player and they can't take back any salary. The Pens had to sell off some players for garbage while the Rangers and Caps are getting decent returns that will help in the future.
Maybe. They still sold off players for prospects.

Beech, Sivek, Lupaschuk and Fata are decent. Most every trade besides the Kovalev one got something in return.

Regardless, the deals are made because the team's weren't good. The Pens thought that they could win with their roster, much like the Rangers or Caps thought they could win through Jagr, Lindros, Bondra, whoever.

The fact that the Penguins had money troubles doesn't change the fact that all teams traded their top players away because their team wasn't good and chose to rebuild.

The Pens got good return for Straka, Hedberg, and got something for Jagr, who had a small market where he could be dealt (NYR or Washington). They kept both Jagr and Kovalev too long also, which hurt the trade value even more.

The Kovalev trade was one huge salary dump, I definitely give you that.

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