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Addressing team toughness

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Old
01-12-2009, 03:42 PM
  #26
Garfinkel1
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We have enough players hitting just not hitting hard. Like everyone is saying we need a big guy to go in and make players hesitate about battling for the puck near the boards. I figured we would be in the perfect position to make this happen. We have a ton of 3rd liners. Why can't we swap speed/talent for size/grit? Isn't anyone looking for a 3rd liner to help score?

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01-12-2009, 03:45 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Garfinkel1 View Post
We have enough players hitting just not hitting hard. Like everyone is saying we need a big guy to go in and make players hesitate about battling for the puck near the boards. I figured we would be in the perfect position to make this happen. We have a ton of 3rd liners. Why can't we swap speed/talent for size/grit? Isn't anyone looking for a 3rd liner to help score?
Maybe they are, but exactly are we going to help them with that? We have hardly any skill or talent on the roster. No offense to Nigel Dawes, who has played okay the last few weeks, but at this point I would venture to say he has very, very little trade value.

All we have is grit, except our grit is undersized. Or it's Aaron Voros. Really sensible way to construct a roster, isn't it?

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01-12-2009, 03:48 PM
  #28
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Anyone want to ask Drury about Neil....isn't he the player that cheapshotted Drury two years ago.....started a huge brawl.....with that being said..i would love to get Neil on this team. I think he could be an Avery type addition...

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01-12-2009, 03:50 PM
  #29
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I hope we can all se how Voros is a waste of space on the ice.....if he playes over Korpo or Prucha, Renny should be fired on the spot.....maybe play him over Freddy...but thats it.

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01-12-2009, 03:51 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by wereback View Post
Anyone want to ask Drury about Neil....isn't he the player that cheapshotted Drury two years ago.....started a huge brawl.....with that being said..i would love to get Neil on this team. I think he could be an Avery type addition...
I think you guys can forget about Neil, because if he is going to get dealt, it's going to be to a real playoff contender that is looking for postseason grit. My money is on the Wings picking him up.

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01-12-2009, 03:56 PM
  #31
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I think you guys can forget about Neil, because if he is going to get dealt, it's going to be to a real playoff contender that is looking for postseason grit. My money is on the Wings picking him up.
Are the Rangers not a real playoff contender?

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01-12-2009, 04:02 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by wereback View Post
Are the Rangers not a real playoff contender?
If you're asking some other people around here, perhaps.

If you're asking me, in a nutshell... No. Not even close.

EDIT: Perhaps I should clarify, I meant contender to win the Cup. I do believe the Rangers will qualify for the post-season.

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01-12-2009, 04:05 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
If you're asking some other people around here, perhaps.

If you're asking me, in a nutshell... No. Not even close.

EDIT: Perhaps I should clarify, I meant contender to win the Cup. I do believe the Rangers will qualify for the post-season.
That's where we are going to have to agree to disagree....i honestly think this team will start playing like they did earlier in the year....winning games 2-1, 1-0...ect. It may be boring, but i think they figured it out they cannot play this run and gun type of hockey....it may not be pretty but it is effective.

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01-12-2009, 04:16 PM
  #34
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Anyone want to ask Drury about Neil....isn't he the player that cheapshotted Drury two years ago.....started a huge brawl.....with that being said..i would love to get Neil on this team. I think he could be an Avery type addition...
Avery changed games not just with his pestering but with his offensive ability. Whatever offense Neil once possessed has apparently disappeared. In fact, Avery has more that twice as many points as Neil this year and Avery isn't even in the league anymore. Comparing the two is a stretch.

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01-12-2009, 04:22 PM
  #35
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I don't know, Neil struggled last season and has been even worse this year. He just strikes me as more crap to play on the bottom line.
except unlike the other "crap" (not my word) Neil brings consistent physicality.

I'd love to get both Neil and Tkachuk.

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01-12-2009, 04:22 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by nyr2k2 View Post
Avery changed games not just with his pestering but with his offensive ability. Whatever offense Neil once possessed has apparently disappeared. In fact, Avery has more that twice as many points as Neil this year and Avery isn't even in the league anymore. Comparing the two is a stretch.
I think Avery's attitude helped this team a lot more than his offensive production. I also think Neil would be better off with a change of scenery....not sure if it would be Avery like......its worth discussing though.

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01-12-2009, 04:24 PM
  #37
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Seems like this same thread pops up again and again, and while most fans here, and elsewhere including MSG all see the need for this, but for whatever reason it just never gets addressed.

I think two players change the dynamic of this club...Not two specific players, but two types of players. The team lacks physicality in two area's IMO. 1st in on the defense. and 2nd is in the top 6.


The Rangers have some toughness. Obviously, Orr has established himself as opne of the better enforcers in todays game. But from...there isn't much. Yeah Voros can play physical, but he's been taking some nights off. The defense has been way more physical than last season. Especially Mara, Girardi, and Staal...But, all three of them aren't true physical defenseman. They are just players that are adding a more physical style to thier games. Up front, the Rangers to me don't have a true top 6. They have a mediocre top 9!...and all of them with the excpetion of Brandon Dubinsky and Ryan Callahan are not the most physical of players. What is scarier is that Ryan Cally leads the club in hits, and is the 2nd smallest player on the team.

If the club was to address this, I think the need a TRUE physical guy in the top 6. A Dustin Brown, a Shane Doan, A Vinny LeCav, A Ryan Getzlaf, a Corey Perry, A Jerome Iginla, a Ryan Malone(even though he has slowed down), an Ollie Jokinen...problem is these guy are obviously tough to come by, and you will pay out the nose for them...being that the club already paid out the nose, finding a physical player to fit into the top 6 is porbably not going to happen. And if Sather can;t find a player with the credentials to put him in the top 6, he is then forced to bring in a guy to the bottom nine...which there are plenty that will fit that mold. People are mentioning Neil. Personally I think that is a great fit. Adds a lot of charachter, and he has some pretty good skills to boot. He would instantly be a fan fav in NY. Another I would love to see is Carcillo. Pho is in some serious trouble. Maybe Slats could swing a deal to bring him to NY.

On the defense there are a lot of 5-6 defenders that will fit the mold here, but good luck trying to get a guy to put in the top 4. Yeah Jay-bo is unrestricted, but again, cap restrictions, and IMO better offers from other teams will be on the table if indeed Fla is going to deal him before he tests the free agent market. Bieska IMo would be tremendous, but why would the Nucks do that? Talking about a team that just made a major move to get them deep into the playoffs. Orpik would have been tremendous, but Sather couldn't get him here...So once again, it forces the team to look into lesser player than can do this. The Exelby's, the Gauthier's, the McLaren's etc. Those 2nd tier guys are probably more likely if the Rangers do make a move.



But, normally wehat ends up happeneing is the deal that nobody saw coming. The player that was never mentioned in rumors here etc...And the guy that people will say wow...can't believe this guy is a Ranger, but...Is that really what they needed?

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01-12-2009, 04:24 PM
  #38
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except unlike the other "crap" (not my word) Neil brings consistent physicality.

I'd love to get both Neil and Tkachuk.
NOW were talking....

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01-12-2009, 04:25 PM
  #39
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Can anyone here give me an example of a game that the Rangers lost this season due to a lack of toughness? Can anyone give me a logical explanation as to how, exactly, the addition of toughness to this roster will make it better moving forward? Toughness is not this team's problem.

If you tell me we need a scorer that can handle himself, I'm all about it, but the "scorer" should be priority #1. This team doesn't get pushed around at all...

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01-12-2009, 04:27 PM
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Can anyone here give me an example of a game that the Rangers lost this season due to a lack of toughness?
that's a cop-out.

can you give me an example of a game they lost because of lack of water? does that mean they should forget about hydrating altogether?

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01-12-2009, 04:28 PM
  #41
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Wanted Cole, but the Oilers are in decent enough shape right now that they might not want to deal him, unless of course the return is a worthwhile prospect who's already playing in the NHL. Bet they'd ask for Callahan or Korpikoski, two players I'd rather the Rangers keep. Otherwise probably a first round pick, which I can't see the Rangers giving up given how deep the 2009 draft will be.

Would anyone here give up a first for him? He's only 30, so I doubt the reason he's struggling is because he's over the hill

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01-12-2009, 04:32 PM
  #42
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We dont need toughness...we need this...

Colton Orr's best outing...

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01-12-2009, 04:34 PM
  #43
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I think Neil's offense improves being put in the right situations and with better players. His better offensive seasons he got quite a bit of pwp time. Ottawa has changed coaching and management in the last few seasons and that may have as much to do with his declining numbers as anything. He is not going to be a big scorer. Look at Barnaby before we got him. His career seemed just about over. Neil has some speed and skates well. That is the biggest reason he's such an effective bodychecker. He is a lot better player than Hollweg. Also a lot tougher and a much better fighter.

While I agree with Sting in his assessment on whether or not the Rangers are a legit contender (that's a no they're not) I think Ottawa would take what they think is the best deal but all things being equal they send him out of the conference. To be honest I think Neil brings them a mid to late 2nd rounder or if they want a prospect something like a Sauer, a Byers or a Potter + a 3rd/4th. I don't think Ottawa moves Neil for another similarly aged established 3rd-4th line and/or scrub like Sjostrom. With the season they're having prospects and draft picks may be more in line for what they want.

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01-12-2009, 04:44 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Synergy27 View Post
Can anyone here give me an example of a game that the Rangers lost this season due to a lack of toughness? Can anyone give me a logical explanation as to how, exactly, the addition of toughness to this roster will make it better moving forward? Toughness is not this team's problem.

If you tell me we need a scorer that can handle himself, I'm all about it, but the "scorer" should be priority #1. This team doesn't get pushed around at all...
The Jagr-less and Avery-less team that lost to Pittsburgh last season in the playoffs were outskilled but in another respect they lost the majority of the battles against the Penguins both along the boards and in the corners. Jagr absorbed a lot of punishment but while he was here was our best player at controling the puck. Without those two we are less physical so that problem has gotten worse.

The idea isn't to just add anybody. It's to guys with some talent that can win the battles. It may be that a change of scenery would give Neil a new lease on life. It would make us tougher and other teams would have to adjust. Certainly worth a try if the cost isn't too great. Anyway I like Cole and Gaustad as well. They would also be good additions.

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01-12-2009, 04:46 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
And you came to this in-depth analysis based on watching how many Oiler games this season? Zero? One? Two?

Erik Cole's game is exactly the same as it's always been. He's been snake bitten for a while, not to mention the fact that he's probably hit more posts than anyone in the league this year. He's been one of the hardest working players for the Oilers game in and game out.

Early in the season, he was being played on his off wing, and recently, he's actually started to put some points on the board again.

Cole is a really useful player that I would love the Rangers to acquire. The problem is, how the hell would they re-sign him next season?
granted, its not like the oil is on tv every night but i do have center ice and can watch him plenty if i could stay up late which i cant . i can read tho. i read what is written about his play and i can read what his results are. both are not good. and forget the fact that i know people that know his family. he grew up 30 minutes from me and i went to college in that same town he played his high school hockey in. people know people and they talk. its not hard to find out stuff.

i will agree, he isnt having success in edmonton and hes had some very bad luck scoring goals, but its been too long to call it just that. hes one heck of a talent but he plays a rough power game and hes 30 so his body is torn up. plus hes had some serious injuries.

im just not sold on erik cole at this stage of his career. and i love the guy and his game. heck, i love tim connolly too- hes from near me as well, but hes not healthy either.

were talking about helping the rangers win now, not assembling a bunch of guys who were good 5 years ago.

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01-12-2009, 04:58 PM
  #46
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granted, its not like the oil is on tv every night but i do have center ice and can watch him plenty if i could stay up late which i cant . i can read tho. i read what is written about his play and i can read what his results are. both are not good. and forget the fact that i know people that know his family. he grew up 30 minutes from me and i went to college in that same town he played his high school hockey in. people know people and they talk. its not hard to find out stuff.

i will agree, he isnt having success in edmonton and hes had some very bad luck scoring goals, but its been too long to call it just that. hes one heck of a talent but he plays a rough power game and hes 30 so his body is torn up. plus hes had some serious injuries.

im just not sold on erik cole at this stage of his career. and i love the guy and his game. heck, i love tim connolly too- hes from near me as well, but hes not healthy either.

were talking about helping the rangers win now, not assembling a bunch of guys who were good 5 years ago.
Maybe you know his family, but you sure don't know much about his performance on the ice this season. Cole was an easy scapegoat on a team that was really, really struggling for a while this season because he wasn't putting up any numbers, but those numbers are starting to come around for him. He's only got 8 goals on the year, but 4 of them have come in the last 8 games, and 5 have come in the last 11. Obviously that tells you about his struggles early on, but it also tells you about how it was only a matter of time before pucks started going in for him. He was playing at exactly the same level and with the exact same effort and energy he always had. He just wasn't getting any luck. Plus, he's adjusting to a new team for the first time since he's entered the NHL, one that happens to be one of the most inconsistent teams in the league this season.

The guy's game hasn't changed, he's still the same player. He was in a slump, a bad one, but not for any substantial reason. He would be exactly what the Rangers need: a power forward winger who can score goals. He's not a star 1st line player, but the team can't afford that right now. He's a solid second line winger whose price probably isn't that high right now.

Again, however, the problem is, how do you re-sign him in the off-season? Even if he doesn't take a pay raise because of the down year, he probably isn't going to take a very significant paycut. Maybe .5 million? This team can't afford paying another player 3.5 mill next season.

Go ask the Oiler fans. I'd be shocked if most didn't agree.

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01-12-2009, 06:06 PM
  #47
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Quote:
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I think Avery's attitude helped this team a lot more than his offensive production. I also think Neil would be better off with a change of scenery....not sure if it would be Avery like......its worth discussing though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by -31- View Post
except unlike the other "crap" (not my word) Neil brings consistent physicality.

I'd love to get both Neil and Tkachuk.
Again, I'm not opposed to acquiring Neil, it just doesn't strike me as a priority. We need scoring first, IMO.

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01-12-2009, 06:09 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Maybe you know his family, but you sure don't know much about his performance on the ice this season. Cole was an easy scapegoat on a team that was really, really struggling for a while this season because he wasn't putting up any numbers, but those numbers are starting to come around for him. He's only got 8 goals on the year, but 4 of them have come in the last 8 games, and 5 have come in the last 11. Obviously that tells you about his struggles early on, but it also tells you about how it was only a matter of time before pucks started going in for him. He was playing at exactly the same level and with the exact same effort and energy he always had. He just wasn't getting any luck. Plus, he's adjusting to a new team for the first time since he's entered the NHL, one that happens to be one of the most inconsistent teams in the league this season.

The guy's game hasn't changed, he's still the same player. He was in a slump, a bad one, but not for any substantial reason. He would be exactly what the Rangers need: a power forward winger who can score goals. He's not a star 1st line player, but the team can't afford that right now. He's a solid second line winger whose price probably isn't that high right now.

Again, however, the problem is, how do you re-sign him in the off-season? Even if he doesn't take a pay raise because of the down year, he probably isn't going to take a very significant paycut. Maybe .5 million? This team can't afford paying another player 3.5 mill next season.

Go ask the Oiler fans. I'd be shocked if most didn't agree.
Would Edmonton go for a Prucha+Kalinin for Cole package? Helps us in the short term, and whether we can sign him or not becomes irrelevant (basically) since it's unlikely that either Prucha or Kalinin would be around either.

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01-12-2009, 06:12 PM
  #49
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Would Edmonton go for a Prucha+Kalinin for Cole package? Helps us in the short term, and whether we can sign him or not becomes irrelevant (basically) since it's unlikely that either Prucha or Kalinin would be around either.
I think Edmonton would laugh at you. Heartily. And for quite a while.

If Cole's cost has decreased because of this season, it has gone from a first to a second. It hasn't gone from a first to worthless garbage that no one wants.

Well, at least in Kalinin's case. In Prucha's case, it's a guy I'm sure a lot of teams would take a chance on, but one who, at the moment has no trade value. 6 good games are not enough to make up for a season and a half of nothingness.

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01-12-2009, 06:56 PM
  #50
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I proposed trading for Neil on the Rumor board the other day without much noise either way...

Nonetheless - here´s a little wishful thinking (I am on some mean opiates right now) for a “tougher lineup” on Broadway if that is the goal:
  • A Voros + 5th for C Neil (OTT)
  • Prucha, Kalinin + 3rd rounder 2009 for E Cole (EDM)
  • D Fritsche + Greg Moore (or Sjostrom) for Exelby (FLA)
  • And the cherry topping - pickup S Avery on re-entry waivers from Dallas at half price

Näslund – Gomez – Cole
Avery – Dubinsky - Zherdev
Dawes – Drury - Callahan
Neil – Betts – Orr


Sjostrom, Korpedo, AA

Redden – Staal
Girardi - Rozie
Mara – Exelby


Potter, Sangs

Not sure they would fare better on the scoreboard with the above team
But the fans would like it and the penalty box would be well used too

Have a nice night from a stormy Iceland – I am newly operated AGAIN (2nd time in 2 months) but hoping to get better this time

www.hotelranga.is

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