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Old
01-13-2009, 04:59 PM
  #126
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
Because I believe he should be a better player than he is. And his inconsistency is a huge concern. He's already been traded once because of it.
Not really. He may be inconsistent, but that isn't why he was traded. He was traded because hardly anyone thought he had any interest in staying in Columbus once his deal was over.

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Originally Posted by Crash the Net View Post
The only reason Zherdev has been anything to rave about this season is because he's the only one to rave about this season.

He's been just decent, really. Valid points about nobody setting him up but he's barely having a career year and isn't scoring goals or shooting the puck.
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
I'm not all over the place. I see a guy who is immensely talented yet hardy a difference maker. He has as many goals as Drury and Callahan. And if he's a playmaker, do we need another?
Remind me...at what point in his career was Zherdev regarded as a goalscorer? What you're right about is we only need one playmaker. Zherdev is that one. Now the question is how do you get rid of the one that's worse than Zherdev, yet making more money than Zherdev will be?

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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
And I feel his career best is not good enough with the talent he has. I've seen him score goals that two maybe three players in the league can score.

He's leading a team full of players that people more or less have underachieved

If he gets 5+ M, I'm not sure I keep him.
He's a 24-year-old whose early NHL career was far from stable. He deserves an extra year or two in his development cycle before people can start to label him.

Now I'm of the opinion that at his best, he'll be a 75 point player, but he'll never be a franchise player. That said, he's still the best skater on our team.

But he shouldn't get 5 million dollars. At most, 4.5.

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01-13-2009, 05:01 PM
  #127
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$4.5m for 5 yrs

would be my guess, he must be kept, he is a better playmaker than Gomez and our best forward.

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01-13-2009, 05:12 PM
  #128
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Sting...

I think the risk of him signing abroad was real, but I also thought there were other issues, including consistency. Of course, what needs to be recognized is that inconsistent player we're talking about was something like 19, 20, 21 and 22 years of age - so that's to be expected. We're getting to the point where his age shouldn't be the reason for inconsistencies in his effort, and if there are these inconsistencies, there are other reasons.

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01-13-2009, 05:16 PM
  #129
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Get it done now, so you have less unknowns going into the off-season. I'd figure the Horton contract is what we'd be looking at for a comparison.

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01-13-2009, 05:26 PM
  #130
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Seems like Zherdev still has that tool of an agent. You'll learn to hate that guy the longer this goes on. 5 years, 25 million seems like a good deal for both sides.

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01-13-2009, 05:56 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Not really. He may be inconsistent, but that isn't why he was traded. He was traded because hardly anyone thought he had any interest in staying in Columbus once his deal was over.





Remind me...at what point in his career was Zherdev regarded as a goalscorer? What you're right about is we only need one playmaker. Zherdev is that one. Now the question is how do you get rid of the one that's worse than Zherdev, yet making more money than Zherdev will be?



He's a 24-year-old whose early NHL career was far from stable. He deserves an extra year or two in his development cycle before people can start to label him.

Now I'm of the opinion that at his best, he'll be a 75 point player, but he'll never be a franchise player. That said, he's still the best skater on our team.

But he shouldn't get 5 million dollars. At most, 4.5.
I totally agree with you on that. Too bad we cant cut all our over-payed players and build around Z.

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01-13-2009, 07:12 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by The Thomas J. View Post
4 years $16 Million sounds about right.
That's what I was thinking...something like 3.5/4/4.5/5. True, that's 17m, but I think that might even be pushing it.

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01-13-2009, 07:44 PM
  #133
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definitely have tog et this den. Its great that Z wants to be here. Make him happy Sather!

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01-13-2009, 07:47 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by 045 DEUCENYR View Post
I totally agree with you on that. Too bad we cant cut all our over-payed players and build around Z.
me too. I would like to see this team built around these players as a core right here.
Lundqvist
Staal
Zherdev
Dubinsky
Callahan

Theres other kids I like out there as well. We got Lundy. Need to take care of these guys next. I can't wait until we actually build a Rangers team again with home grown kids. Just like the old days.

I think the easiest contract (and probably most agree) to get rid of would be Rozsival's. His fellow country man in Toronto is in the all star game and his numbers are just above Rozsival's. A few more assists.
IMO you're getting a Kaberle type player back. Rozsival doesn't have the same career numbers but Kaberle has played many more games. Probably Slats can move Rozsival whenever he wants.

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01-13-2009, 08:26 PM
  #135
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anything over 5 million a season and i'll pass
Yea, hopefully we can buy another Gomez/Drury type player then for 7 million...

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01-13-2009, 08:32 PM
  #136
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need to be realistic about this contract. Zherdev really doesnt have a lot of options here, if jay bow was signed for 4 this year, even though it was a 1 year deal, we should be able to get zherdev for about the same. Furthermore look at the contract of parise, very similar points makes a little over 3 a year.

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01-13-2009, 08:41 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by gravytrain6t View Post
me too. I would like to see this team built around these players as a core right here.
Lundqvist
Staal
Zherdev
Dubinsky
Callahan


Theres other kids I like out there as well. We got Lundy. Need to take care of these guys next. I can't wait until we actually build a Rangers team again with home grown kids. Just like the old days.

I think the easiest contract (and probably most agree) to get rid of would be Rozsival's. His fellow country man in Toronto is in the all star game and his numbers are just above Rozsival's. A few more assists.
IMO you're getting a Kaberle type player back. Rozsival doesn't have the same career numbers but Kaberle has played many more games. Probably Slats can move Rozsival whenever he wants.
exactly what i was thinking, but i'd include Girardi and maybe Mara.

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01-13-2009, 08:44 PM
  #138
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The best thing Slats can do is lock up Zherdev long term, he has no serious injuries in his career, wants to be here, changed his attitude on the game to flourish here, and is having a breakout year.

The Rangers need to lock him up, and work some trades to allow a deal around or over 5 years.

This team will never center around Zherdev like it should until Gomez starts to mesh with Zherdev and Dubinsky gets comfortable on the wing*, or Wade Redden is moved to make cap room for some snipers.

*I've always felt strongly with moving Dubinsky to wing, he isn't particularly strong on face-offs, is our worst defensive centerman, and would blow Callahan/Prucha/Dawes out of the water on the wing position. He has great hands and a great shot, but doesn't have the mental ability to play center, it's too much responsibility.

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01-13-2009, 10:30 PM
  #139
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I love the little creep, lock him in!

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01-13-2009, 10:36 PM
  #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
I'm not all over the place. I see a guy who is immensely talented yet hardy a difference maker. He has as many goals as Drury and Callahan. And if he's a playmaker, do we need another?

We don't know what players who score 60-70 points are going to command. He's not going to get top dollar? What is top dollar?




I need to see more in that I'm not sure he's the guy I want to invest big money and years in (especially with this team as it's currently constructed and when you are talking about buying out years of UFAgency from him)

Again, I'm willing to wait and see what a salary in that range really is.

You know the answer to the question. We have two of them. One who will maybe hit 60, and the other who if hes lucky will hit 70 and they make 7.1 and 7.5 per year. So we know what they get.

Zherdev is more talented then both Drury and Gomez but the fact is if he only can use 1/2 of his potential because of his surroundings and hits 70 points and gets 5 mil you would let him walk? We have two players who cant hit 70 and are getting paid 7/7.5? Something is wrong with that logic.

Zherdev can be a play maker or a sniper, but the fact of the matter is, if hes a play maker, what snipers does he have to set up? He played with Dubinsky and Voros for a good chunk of the season, two of your more premier snipers in the league

And if hes a plays his sniper role, who is setting him up? Gomez hasnt done **** all season, and again Dubinsky? Voros? Korpikosi? I know Blair ****ing Betts, no no wait, I got it. Colton Orr. Nigel Dawes? Or is it Petr Pruchas Job? Drury has never been a set up man. Naslund in his prime maybe but not at 35.

You would have a great point SBOB if he had the surroundings and wasnt producing.

Many players thrive due to a combination of their skill and their surroundings. Zherdev is thriving on skill alone right now because his enviornment isnt doing much to help him IMO. When you get a player like Zherdev you need to surround him with what he needs, similar to Jagr. Sure Jagr declined his second season, but it was his third season where he had the biggest change and of course because he was without Nylander, the catalyst. And no Im not saying Zherdev is a primadonna like Jags but surroundings are very important for players like them.


Last edited by Gardner McKay: 01-13-2009 at 10:43 PM.
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Old
01-14-2009, 07:54 AM
  #141
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Lupul in Philly signed an extension worth $4.25 million over last summer.

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01-14-2009, 08:15 AM
  #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Great Dubinsky View Post
You know the answer to the question. We have two of them. One who will maybe hit 60, and the other who if hes lucky will hit 70 and they make 7.1 and 7.5 per year. So we know what they get.
No, those were UFA signings. They're different. And if somebody wants to offer him that, you gladly let him go and take the 4 first round picks.

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Originally Posted by The Great Dubinsky View Post
Zherdev is more talented then both Drury and Gomez but the fact is if he only can use 1/2 of his potential because of his surroundings and hits 70 points and gets 5 mil you would let him walk? We have two players who cant hit 70 and are getting paid 7/7.5? Something is wrong with that logic.
That's bunk. Alex Ovechkin uses all his talent regardless of who he plays with. For that matter, so does Ryan Callahan.

Again, leave the Drury and Gomez hate out of this, they are not comparable.



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Originally Posted by The Great Dubinsky View Post
You would have a great point SBOB if he had the surroundings and wasnt producing.
I don't see the surroundings changing so, you're going to commit big bucks for a guy who cant' use his talent to the fullest (your words).

Couldn't you use the surrounds as an excuse for Gomez as well? Or is only the guys who are on the nice list that get excuses?

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Originally Posted by The Great Dubinsky View Post
Many players thrive due to a combination of their skill and their surroundings. Zherdev is thriving on skill alone right now because his enviornment isnt doing much to help him IMO. When you get a player like Zherdev you need to surround him with what he needs, similar to Jagr. Sure Jagr declined his second season, but it was his third season where he had the biggest change and of course because he was without Nylander, the catalyst. And no Im not saying Zherdev is a primadonna like Jags but surroundings are very important for players like them.
More excuses. The fact is he was never a big scorer even before he got here. It's not as if his production has declined here.

The fact is I see an immensely talented guy here who I believe has underachieved his entire career. I see a guy with all world talent that is not a leading man. And to me, what keeps him from being a leading guy is desire, competitiveness and a burning need to win. Ovechkin has that. Crosby has that. Hell, Zach Parise has that.

Look, I'm not saying he has to go. I just don't see why people find the idea of waiting and seeing before committing to a contract that may or may not be market standard so reprehensible. Especially when the player your talking about has been mainly an enigma his entire career.

He wants to stay in the NHL and stay in NY? That's nice. I can't see that changing between now and the end of the season.

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01-14-2009, 03:58 PM
  #143
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I got an email response from Brandon's agent Kurt Overhardt regarding any talks with the Rangers...Be patient and keep cheering for Brandon.

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01-14-2009, 04:12 PM
  #144
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I got an email response from Brandon's agent Kurt Overhardt regarding any talks with the Rangers...Be patient and keep cheering for Brandon.
Wow, RB, that is the very definition of inscrutable.


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01-14-2009, 04:47 PM
  #145
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It's obvious he will resign here, but what's even more exciting are the forseeable trades in the future that are needed to fit in Z's contract.

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01-14-2009, 05:13 PM
  #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
No, those were UFA signings. They're different. And if somebody wants to offer him that, you gladly let him go and take the 4 first round picks.



That's bunk. Alex Ovechkin uses all his talent regardless of who he plays with. For that matter, so does Ryan Callahan.

Again, leave the Drury and Gomez hate out of this, they are not comparable.


I don't see the surroundings changing so, you're going to commit big bucks for a guy who cant' use his talent to the fullest (your words).

Couldn't you use the surrounds as an excuse for Gomez as well? Or is only the guys who are on the nice list that get excuses?



More excuses. The fact is he was never a big scorer even before he got here. It's not as if his production has declined here.

The fact is I see an immensely talented guy here who I believe has underachieved his entire career. I see a guy with all world talent that is not a leading man. And to me, what keeps him from being a leading guy is desire, competitiveness and I need to win. Ovechkin has that. Crosby has that. Hell, Zach Parise has that.

Look, I'm not saying he has to go. I just don't see why people find the idea of waiting and seeing before committing to a contract that may or may not be market standard so reprehensible. Especially when the player your talking about has been mainly an enigma his entire career.

He wants to stay in the NHL and stay in NY? That's nice. I can't see that changing between now and the end of the season.

We haven't agreed on much of late, SBOB, but you're pretty damn spot-on right here.

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Old
01-14-2009, 05:23 PM
  #147
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
No, those were UFA signings. They're different. And if somebody wants to offer him that, you gladly let him go and take the 4 first round picks.



That's bunk. Alex Ovechkin uses all his talent regardless of who he plays with. For that matter, so does Ryan Callahan.

Again, leave the Drury and Gomez hate out of this, they are not comparable.





I don't see the surroundings changing so, you're going to commit big bucks for a guy who cant' use his talent to the fullest (your words).

Couldn't you use the surrounds as an excuse for Gomez as well? Or is only the guys who are on the nice list that get excuses?



More excuses. The fact is he was never a big scorer even before he got here. It's not as if his production has declined here.

The fact is I see an immensely talented guy here who I believe has underachieved his entire career. I see a guy with all world talent that is not a leading man. And to me, what keeps him from being a leading guy is desire, competitiveness and I need to win. Ovechkin has that. Crosby has that. Hell, Zach Parise has that.

Look, I'm not saying he has to go. I just don't see why people find the idea of waiting and seeing before committing to a contract that may or may not be market standard so reprehensible. Especially when the player your talking about has been mainly an enigma his entire career.

He wants to stay in the NHL and stay in NY? That's nice. I can't see that changing between now and the end of the season.
thats the smartest thing anyone has said on this thread.

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01-15-2009, 05:01 AM
  #148
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
No, those were UFA signings. They're different. And if somebody wants to offer him that, you gladly let him go and take the 4 first round picks.
Yes. They were UFA signings. Yet still they are very much in the discussion when talking about re-signings, because your highest paid player have to be your best performers and team carriers. It's demoralizing to have a couple of strugglers cashing in the big booty.

UFA or not, they have to be the best players if paid to be franchise players. They set the bar at a level we do not want and it's hurting us in so many ways. In the past, present and in the future.

Quote:
That's bunk. Alex Ovechkin uses all his talent regardless of who he plays with. For that matter, so does Ryan Callahan.

Again, leave the Drury and Gomez hate out of this, they are not comparable.
Comparable as UFA's and RFA's, no, they're not comparable. But as teammates on the same payroll, they are. Regardless of how they were signed, they still have to contribute somewhat to the level of their contracts.

Quote:
I don't see the surroundings changing so, you're going to commit big bucks for a guy who cant' use his talent to the fullest (your words).

Couldn't you use the surrounds as an excuse for Gomez as well? Or is only the guys who are on the nice list that get excuses?
Maybe so. But Gomez is paid to be a line carrier, maybe even a team carrier, yet he's not. If Zherdev is paid to be a team carrier and is not, we will have the same discussion.

Quote:
More excuses. The fact is he was never a big scorer even before he got here. It's not as if his production has declined here.

The fact is I see an immensely talented guy here who I believe has underachieved his entire career. I see a guy with all world talent that is not a leading man. And to me, what keeps him from being a leading guy is desire, competitiveness and I need to win. Ovechkin has that. Crosby has that. Hell, Zach Parise has that.
Ovechkin and Crosby are generational talents, so they are not comparable. Parise might be and yes, he's turning out to be a franchise player. We can only hope Zherdev blooms a step further after his contract.
Quote:
Look, I'm not saying he has to go. I just don't see why people find the idea of waiting and seeing before committing to a contract that may or may not be market standard so reprehensible. Especially when the player your talking about has been mainly an enigma his entire career.

He wants to stay in the NHL and stay in NY? That's nice. I can't see that changing between now and the end of the season.
Agreed. There's no need to panic. Plenty of time left.

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01-15-2009, 07:39 AM
  #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
The fact is I see an immensely talented guy here who I believe has underachieved his entire career. I see a guy with all world talent that is not a leading man. And to me, what keeps him from being a leading guy is desire, competitiveness and a burning need to win. Ovechkin has that. Crosby has that. Hell, Zach Parise has that.
You've hit the nail on the head here. Every time I watch Zherdev play I sit and think to myself "why is this guy not as good as Ovechkin". His hands are better than Ovechkin. His shot is as good. His vision is great, and we've all seen that he's got world class wheels when he decides to kick it into high gear. But, as you said, he is lacking that "I am going to put this puck in the net, and there is nothing you can do to stop me" attitude that the great players have. There is nothing physical holding Nik back from being amongst the elite players in this league, it's entirely mental/personality with him, and to be honest I don't think that that is something that will ever change, sadly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chimp
Comparable as UFA's and RFA's, no, they're not comparable. But as teammates on the same payroll, they are. Regardless of how they were signed, they still have to contribute somewhat to the level of their contracts.
Even still, they are not. The league is different now, and you see a ton of young kids stepping into lineups and becoming the best players on their teams. There is a heirarchy in place, though, similar to the ones you see elsewhere in the business world, and regardless of production or talent the older, more experienced "leaders" make the most money. That is, of course, unless the production and talent of said youngster so far eclipses the rest of his teammates that the heirarchy goes out the window (see Ovechkin/Crosby/Malkin). This is not the case with Z.

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01-15-2009, 08:00 AM
  #150
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How do you even compare Zherdev with Crosby and Ovechkin? This is apples and oranges we're talking about.

When you think of Zherdev you think of Frolov, Parise, Horton, and even a possible Hemsky....not an Ovechkin, Malkin etc...

So what if Zherdev went 4th overall in the 1st round. It doesn't matter b/c he still produces at acceptable levels and is deserving of a 4.5 mill a yr contract. Henrik Lundqvist was drafted in the 7th round.....don't base what you expect per where a player was drafted. Zherdev has ridiculous talent, but juiced up finesse is like the glob trotters playing an NBA team(they'll get killed). It doesn't cut it at all times. I think it's Zherdev's vision more than anything else that stack up his points. Not to say you won't see highlight reel goals probably every season from him, with his talent you most likely will. So it's time to accept Zherdev for the type of player he is, or is developing into. He shows that he cares out there, which is definitley a key aspect of his game IMO.


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