HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk Trade rumors, transactions, and free agent talk. Rumors must contain the word RUMOR in post title. Proposals must contain the word PROPOSAL in post title.

Pittsburgh and St. Louis

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-13-2009, 11:47 AM
  #1
Ragamuffin Gunner
Lost in The Flood
 
Ragamuffin Gunner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Boston
Country: United States
Posts: 17,025
vCash: 500
Pittsburgh and St. Louis

A deal centered around Boyes and Staal was brought up on the Blues’ board and I have a proposal that I think both teams can live with:

Staal + 2nd for Boyes + 3rd.

The Blues move up around 20 picks give or take (could be much more if the Pens keep sucking this year) and get a solid defensive player that they obviously need. They have the same Cap hit, and Staal is signed for an extra year.

Looking at the team stats, StL is currently 15th in the league in Goals For Avg (115/41 = 2.8GFA), 26th in Goals Against Avg (136/41 = 3.32 GAA), and 4th with 678 PIM. These stats ate important to consider in this trade because StL is in obvious need for more defensive help. Although Boyes has 35 points he is a league worst – 23. I know +/- can be kind of a BS stat but when you are this low after 41 games there is something wrong, also he is 9 lower then the next StL player so it’s not like the whole team is in the -20’s.

At 20 years old Staal has the potential to be a 30 goal getter when on the top two lines. However for the sake of argument say Staal is an annual 25 goal scorer (on pace for 24 this year) and Boyes is an annual 40 goal scored (on pace for 38 this year). I feel that Staal's defensive game and PK ability will more than make up for that 15 goal difference, especially with how many PIMs StL takes. 15 less goals against in a year are just as good as 15 more goals for in a season. Also, with the injuries to Johnson, Kariya, and McDonald those 15 goals will be more than made up for when these players are healthy.

With McDonald on IR and a UFA there's no guarantee he will resign or be the same player he was before he got hurt so Staal could be your 1st or 2nd line center for the next 4 years at least.

Also, Staal has a SCF experience, which can be very beneficial if the Blues make the playoffs next year. And, in the playoffs defense wins championships.

Let me know what you all think.

Ragamuffin Gunner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2009, 11:58 AM
  #2
wej20
Registered User
 
wej20's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Swansea,UK
Country: Wales
Posts: 22,246
vCash: 500
I like it maybe a slightly lower pick coming from St Louis though or we can throw in a prospect not named Caputi or CPZ.

wej20 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2009, 12:01 PM
  #3
Avoid Lloyd
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Harmony P.A.
Country: United States
Posts: 102
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ASV 27 View Post
A deal centered around Boyes and Staal was brought up on the Blues’ board and I have a proposal that I think both teams can live with:

Staal + 2nd for Boyes + 3rd.

The Blues move up around 20 picks give or take (could be much more if the Pens keep sucking this year) and get a solid defensive player that they obviously need. They have the same Cap hit, and Staal is signed for an extra year.

Looking at the team stats, StL is currently 15th in the league in Goals For Avg (115/41 = 2.8GFA), 26th in Goals Against Avg (136/41 = 3.32 GAA), and 4th with 678 PIM. These stats ate important to consider in this trade because StL is in obvious need for more defensive help. Although Boyes has 35 points he is a league worst – 23. I know +/- can be kind of a BS stat but when you are this low after 41 games there is something wrong, also he is 9 lower then the next StL player so it’s not like the whole team is in the -20’s.

At 20 years old Staal has the potential to be a 30 goal getter when on the top two lines. However for the sake of argument say Staal is an annual 25 goal scorer (on pace for 24 this year) and Boyes is an annual 40 goal scored (on pace for 38 this year). I feel that Staal's defensive game and PK ability will more than make up for that 15 goal difference, especially with how many PIMs StL takes. 15 less goals against in a year are just as good as 15 more goals for in a season. Also, with the injuries to Johnson, Kariya, and McDonald those 15 goals will be more than made up for when these players are healthy.

With McDonald on IR and a UFA there's no guarantee he will resign or be the same player he was before he got hurt so Staal could be your 1st or 2nd line center for the next 4 years at least.

Also, Staal has a SCF experience, which can be very beneficial if the Blues make the playoffs next year. And, in the playoffs defense wins championships.

Let me know what you all think.
Staal and a 3rd for Boyes

Avoid Lloyd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2009, 12:06 PM
  #4
FuzzyTitus
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 387
vCash: 500
Ugh, if I'm St.Louis I wouldn't touch that deal. They don't want to deal a 40-goal scorer for a potential 25-30 goal scorer. They have good young talent now, rookie centers in Berglund and Oshie, I think they are set for now, just need some time.

Btw, I'm not a fan of either team.

FuzzyTitus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2009, 12:07 PM
  #5
Ragamuffin Gunner
Lost in The Flood
 
Ragamuffin Gunner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Boston
Country: United States
Posts: 17,025
vCash: 500
The pick's aren't that important to the deal, other then tweaking the value of each package to get it done. The main points is that Pit needs a scoring winger, and StL needs someone to kill penalties and play a solid defensive same.

Ragamuffin Gunner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2009, 12:10 PM
  #6
Polaris
Cold as Ice
 
Polaris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: IL Side
Country: Wake Island
Posts: 1,786
vCash: 500
I know there's one or two posters at the Blues board who like this trade, but it just doesn't make sense for the Blues. Our prospect pool is filled with centers and fairly weak on pure snipers.

Unless Staal throws on the goalie pads, there's no way he's going to dramatically improve our GAA. Legace has been beyond terrible for most of the season. Our defense is so beat up that we're throwing out such superstars as Jeff Woywitka, Mike Weaver, and Tyson Strachan every night. Our forwards aren't the reason why we have so many goals against.

Polaris is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2009, 12:11 PM
  #7
NYR Sting
Heart and Soul
 
NYR Sting's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 9,506
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lycanthropyre View Post
Ugh, if I'm St.Louis I wouldn't touch that deal. They don't want to deal a 40-goal scorer for a potential 25-30 goal scorer. They have good young talent now, rookie centers in Berglund and Oshie, I think they are set for now, just need some time.

Btw, I'm not a fan of either team.
Same here. I'm a Ranger fan and I see no reason for the Blues to do this. I'm sure the Blues would LOVE to get Staal, but not at the expense of a 43 goal scorer who is on pace for 38 and 70 points this season.

Find a different way. Maybe the Blues get Staal and send Tkachuk back as part of the package, so the Pens can get help this season, too? That's probably too big a deal, but...

NYR Sting is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2009, 12:13 PM
  #8
wej20
Registered User
 
wej20's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Swansea,UK
Country: Wales
Posts: 22,246
vCash: 500
Tkachuk makes no sense for the Pens really if we are sending Staal,if Staal is traded for a wing then it has to be someone with youth on there side.

wej20 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2009, 12:17 PM
  #9
FuzzyTitus
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 387
vCash: 500
It may make no sense, but there is no way the blues are giving up Boyes for Staal when they have (arguably) better centers in Berglund and Oshie. They may not be as good defensively, but you're not getting a 40+ goal scorer for a defensive forward.

I am a Canucks fan, and if St.Louis wants a PKer we'll give then Johnson for Boyes.... any takers?

FuzzyTitus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2009, 12:17 PM
  #10
mcphllp
Dion @ 6.5=Discount
 
mcphllp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 7,066
vCash: 500
I agree, I think the Blues would be stupid to make this trade. Boyes scores a lot of goals. Sure it would be great for Pitts, but not so great for St. Louis.

mcphllp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2009, 12:20 PM
  #11
KGpens
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 518
vCash: 500
I think Crosby would agree to the deal

KGpens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2009, 12:27 PM
  #12
wej20
Registered User
 
wej20's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Swansea,UK
Country: Wales
Posts: 22,246
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lycanthropyre View Post
It may make no sense, but there is no way the blues are giving up Boyes for Staal when they have (arguably) better centers in Berglund and Oshie. They may not be as good defensively, but you're not getting a 40+ goal scorer for a defensive forward.

I am a Canucks fan, and if St.Louis wants a PKer we'll give then Johnson for Boyes.... any takers?
Well Johnson is from Thunder BayStaal isn't just a penalty killer though and has put up Good Numbers with very average linemates,I can see your argument about Depth of Centre being a strength for the Blues.I think you can make an arguement for Berglund have better potential than Staal especially offensively ,but Oshie is older than Staal has played 189 less professional Games than Staal and I think most GMs would take Staal over Oshie.

wej20 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2009, 12:36 PM
  #13
Stealth JD
Drexel's dead!!!
 
Stealth JD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Safari Motor Motel
Country: United States
Posts: 6,210
vCash: 500
I don't necessarily agree that the Blues are deep in center...Oshie is probably better suited on right wing...Lars Eller on left wing. Other prospects like McRae are still years away and are no sure-bet to be a long-term solution. Berglund has the ability to be a #1 center, but beyond that it's far from being stable. Andy McDonald may be traded at the deadline, and for the money he'll command might not make sense to resign. And if he is resigned, he's nowhere near as defensively responsible as Staal is, granted the offensive output is much higher.

The problem with McDonald is that we've also got Kariya and Boyes on the roster, none of whom are even remotely defensively-aware. One or two of these guys may be able to be hidden on a roster and paired with 2-way linemates...but when you've got so many 1 way players, the defense looks bad (it does), the goal-tending is more susceptible to soft goals (guilty) and you're going to periennially be near the bottom of the leauge in goals against (25th currently).

Boyes offense may be missed, but a 2-way player in his place should be able to prevent some of the goals the club allows while he's on the ice doing his best imperssonation of the opposition's blue-line. And who's to say Staal's offense isn't just dying to explode if he's surrounded with comptent linemates..something that Pittsbugh has precious few of, and are given to Malkin/Crosby more than Staal?

I'd strongly consider this from STL's perspective.

Stealth JD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2009, 12:42 PM
  #14
EvenStrengthHockey
Registered User
 
EvenStrengthHockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Canada/USA
Posts: 748
vCash: 500
wouldn't be too bad of a deal

EvenStrengthHockey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2009, 12:44 PM
  #15
SCUDeriMISSILE
We traded Staal
 
SCUDeriMISSILE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 14,137
vCash: 500
Looks like, at the very least, a good starting point to base things off.

Staal and Boyes are good centerpieces. I think Pitt may have to add more than just a round difference in picks. Perhaps Staal, a roster dump, and a 2nd for Boyes.

SCUDeriMISSILE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2009, 12:55 PM
  #16
Ragamuffin Gunner
Lost in The Flood
 
Ragamuffin Gunner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Boston
Country: United States
Posts: 17,025
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth JD View Post
I don't necessarily agree that the Blues are deep in center...Oshie is probably better suited on right wing...Lars Eller on left wing. Other prospects like McRae are still years away and are no sure-bet to be a long-term solution. Berglund has the ability to be a #1 center, but beyond that it's far from being stable. Andy McDonald may be traded at the deadline, and for the money he'll command might not make sense to resign. And if he is resigned, he's nowhere near as defensively responsible as Staal is, granted the offensive output is much higher.

The problem with McDonald is that we've also got Kariya and Boyes on the roster, none of whom are even remotely defensively-aware. One or two of these guys may be able to be hidden on a roster and paired with 2-way linemates...but when you've got so many 1 way players, the defense looks bad (it does), the goal-tending is more susceptible to soft goals (guilty) and you're going to periennially be near the bottom of the leauge in goals against (25th currently).

Boyes offense may be missed, but a 2-way player in his place should be able to prevent some of the goals the club allows while he's on the ice doing his best imperssonation of the opposition's blue-line. And who's to say Staal's offense isn't just dying to explode if he's surrounded with comptent linemates..something that Pittsbugh has precious few of, and are given to Malkin/Crosby more than Staal?

I'd strongly consider this from STL's perspective.
I appreciate a Blues fan's assessment of their defensive woes. I don't get to see much of them and can only go by their stats for defensive ability.

And offensive line with defensive ability centered by Berglund and a defensive line with offensive ability centered by Staal may be just what StL needs to get into the post season again.

Ragamuffin Gunner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2009, 12:56 PM
  #17
jmwc95
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,018
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ASV 27 View Post
The pick's aren't that important to the deal, other then tweaking the value of each package to get it done. The main points is that Pit needs a scoring winger, and StL needs someone to kill penalties and play a solid defensive same.
Um, St. Louis needs a goal scoring winger, too. They don't need someone to kill penalties and play a solid defensive game as much as they need goalscorers. The problem with their penalty kill is not their forwards. McClement, Steen, Stastny, Oshie, etc., are all capable penalty killers. The problem is with their defensemen. We are the worst defensive team in the Western Conference. It doesn't help that we've had 3 defensemen on IR.

Keep dreaming, but you are not getting Boyes for any deal involving Staal. We're not trading Boyes, period. We could use a 2nd line center, but not at the expense of our 1st line winger.

jmwc95 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2009, 12:56 PM
  #18
Polaris
Cold as Ice
 
Polaris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: IL Side
Country: Wake Island
Posts: 1,786
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth JD View Post
I don't necessarily agree that the Blues are deep in center...Oshie is probably better suited on right wing...Lars Eller on left wing. Other prospects like McRae are still years away and are no sure-bet to be a long-term solution. Berglund has the ability to be a #1 center, but beyond that it's far from being stable. Andy McDonald may be traded at the deadline, and for the money he'll command might not make sense to resign. And if he is resigned, he's nowhere near as defensively responsible as Staal is, granted the offensive output is much higher.
I think you would have to agree that we have a better chance of producing a good center than we do a good sniper though, correct? If we do this deal, we run the risk of becoming a poor man's Penguins. Good centers, but no wingers to bury the puck for them.

By the way, it's not like the Penguins GAA or PK% is much better than ours (in fact, the latter is worse). I don't think Jordan Staal would be that big of a difference maker to our team defense. That's not a knock on Staal, it's just the fact that our forwards aren't the problem. If we had a healthy Erik Johnson and Eric Brewer patrolling the blue line, things would be a lot different. Throw in even a league-average starting goaltender and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

You also have to consider how much worse our PP would be without Boyes. I'm pretty sure he leads our team in PP goals and possibly PP points as well.

It's funny, for such a defensive black hole, Brad Boyes somehow ended up being our second best +/- forward last season, and he didn't even have to be hidden away with some 2-way forwards, since he was on a line with Kariya and Tkachuk for most of the season.

I'd rather count on Boyes improving his defensive game rather than pray on us somehow finding another guy who can score 40 goals.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Polaris is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2009, 01:00 PM
  #19
jmwc95
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,018
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ASV 27 View Post
I appreciate a Blues fan's assessment of their defensive woes. I don't get to see much of them and can only go by their stats for defensive ability.

And offensive line with defensive ability centered by Berglund and a defensive line with offensive ability centered by Staal may be just what StL needs to get into the post season again.
I don't think Boyes is all that bad defensively, it's just his linemates. If you put Boyes on a line with Berglund and Perron, he'd be +10, not -22. McDonald is just not a good defensive center and Kariya is not a defensive player as well. Tkachuk has problems getting the puck out of his own end as well. If you trade Boyes for Staal, you'll just be switching the problem. You'll be better defensively, but then you won't be able to score.

jmwc95 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2009, 01:20 PM
  #20
camarodude39
Registered User
 
camarodude39's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 228
vCash: 500
Staal does not fill a need for the Blues. We are not as weak defensively as you make it seem. It is tough to be strong defensively without your top 2 d-men(Brewer and EJ), poor goaltending, and the loss of Oshie for an extended period of time.

We have plenty of forwards who are strong defensively(Backes, McClement, Oshie, Hinote, Statsny, Crombeen, etc.) If this team could have kept its key players healthy, there is a good chance they would be fighting for a playoff spot. Staal doesnt really help that unless he has some magic healing trick.

camarodude39 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2009, 01:21 PM
  #21
Ragamuffin Gunner
Lost in The Flood
 
Ragamuffin Gunner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Boston
Country: United States
Posts: 17,025
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmwc95 View Post
I don't think Boyes is all that bad defensively, it's just his linemates. If you put Boyes on a line with Berglund and Perron, he'd be +10, not -22. McDonald is just not a good defensive center and Kariya is not a defensive player as well. Tkachuk has problems getting the puck out of his own end as well. If you trade Boyes for Staal, you'll just be switching the problem. You'll be better defensively, but then you won't be able to score.
If it's just his line mates then why is his +/- so much lower then anyone else on StL?

Ragamuffin Gunner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2009, 01:25 PM
  #22
BlueBeard
Registered User
 
BlueBeard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Country: United States
Posts: 2,771
vCash: 500
I pasted in my response from the Blues thread you posted in.

I'm not completely sold on Staal being our #1 center of the future in all honesty. Now he may respond by getting out from behind Crosby and Malkin and he may not. Berglund is our #1 of the future and he does have some work to do to get there but he has improved greatly since we saw him in camp last season and has the right mindset and work effort to get it done. All indicators I see out of him really lead me to believe he's a budding PPG 1st line center. Staal might be able to match that and he might not, I catch the pens whenever they're on VS(which seems to be every other game) and I like Staal but he seems very comparable to what Oshie can bring to the table, of course it's a bit to early to gauge oshie since he missed 24 games due to the high ankle sprain. There's also Lars Eller who could potentially fill a similar role as well but in a different way. Would I like to add Staal into the mix and move the others to wing? Yes but not at the cost of Boyes.

Now when you look at players we have to replace Boyes in our prospect pool there are really no clear cut options at this time. There are some that might, and this years draft may change that but then we push back the timetable waiting on them to be NHL ready.

If we do look at trading Boyes we have to dip into the FA pool to get a replacement and there are only two that stand out to me that bring Boyes offense with defensive game. Hossa and Franzen, and I imagine Detroit will resign one of them. Franzen will pull a similar contract to Boyes, Hossa would cost a king's ransom. We can throw a boatload of money at Gaborik, hope he stays healthy, and hope he learns the lessons ole' Jacque taught him but I doubt that happens since he wants a more offensive team for a reason, he's worse than Boyes on D.

I just can't justify trading Boyes for Staal at this time. Maybe in a year or two when we have a more clear cut picture of how our prospects are going to turn out but not right now.

BlueBeard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2009, 01:28 PM
  #23
camarodude39
Registered User
 
camarodude39's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 228
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ASV 27 View Post
If it's just his line mates then why is his +/- so much lower then anyone else on StL?
McDonald had the worst +/- in the league before he got hurt. Most of Boyes points come via the PP, so he gets all these -'s, but he doesn't get any +'s back when he gets a majority of his points. If PP counted towards +/-, Boyes would probably be even at the very least. That is one of the reasons people are critical of the +/- stat. It doesnt really show the whole picture.

camarodude39 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2009, 01:34 PM
  #24
BlueBeard
Registered User
 
BlueBeard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Country: United States
Posts: 2,771
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ASV 27 View Post
If it's just his line mates then why is his +/- so much lower then anyone else on StL?
Because when your ATOI is 19 minutes and you have shakey goaltending and defense it is not bad luck that puts you at a minus it's merely statistical probability. He's also only -5 for home games where we play much better and -18 while on the road where the the team is dismal. Imagine that someone's +/- looks better when a team plays better as a whole.

BlueBeard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-13-2009, 01:38 PM
  #25
Lustaf
Registered User
 
Lustaf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Victoria, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,477
vCash: 500
It may generate some talks but in the end, I don't think the Blues would do it.

Lustaf is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:54 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2015 All Rights Reserved.