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The official: We don't want no Vinny here thread

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Old
01-13-2009, 01:23 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by tdecheno View Post
Ok fair enough, then tell me which team has ever won a cup without an ELITE centerman? Don't say Koivu is elite cause even if he is a beast in the playoffs, he cannot do it alone and Plekanec is not the answer.
Ahh but your question wasn't "tell me which team has ever won a cup without an ELITE centerman who has done it alone" and quite frankly Koivu is an elite centerman in the playoffs, just go look at his point production during the last couple playoffs and see for yourself.

I never realized also that Lang, Kovalev, Tanguay, Markov, mean that said played would be alone offensively.

Many teams have won cups mainly based on defense, it's more common to see that then a team with only elite forwards.

The only team I can think of that did win the cup based off of mainly elite forwards in recent time was Tampa Bay, and even those who might make the claim Carolina did it need to remember just how well their goaltender played during that playoff. To me, goaltending/defense play a bigger part, and I'm one of the few people who thinks Koivu is a part of the big picture so you aren't going to sway my vote here.

Plus what does anything in your argument have to do with the fact that Lecavalier could end up an injury plagued forward for many years to come and waste us 8 million a year in cap space? Does that not count as some form of risk or something that isn't in our favor.

Point is, I'd rather keep what we have to give up for him rather then take him and lose the depth. Once you trade off all of said players for vinny and vinny gets injured, what are you going to do then? At least our current situation we've already proven we have the depth to have players step up and take somebodies place. Not saying it would be an easy or even successful playoff without Koivu playing due to injury, but can you imagine the magnitude of the effect having Lecavalier injured during the playoffs would have if we trade away not only some current roster players who are good defensively but the future with it?

I'd rather sit tight and wait on subban and just improve our overall D and hope for the best with laraque, then piss away our future and give us and even worse team then we had before. I'm not denying Lecavalier would be a good trade for building a team around but we already have a team, we don't have to give up half of it along with depth and the future just to start over. Because if we give up so much for him, we also lose cap room and can't re-sign people because of him, granted that is to be expected but imo we wouldn't be a better team. We'd be better offensively maybe but worse for defense and overall depth. I'd rather take our chances with the offense we have then possibly ruin a perfectly good team.

Spin it anyway you want, Lecavalier taking the spot of like 4 roster players and even some picks/prospects spells disastor if he gets injured and already spells disastor for our future. It leaves many holes and they also want us to take a salary dump with him. It's much less riskier for the future to go after a cheaper d-man with a less ******** contract and imo Lecavalier won't bring us the cup because our d will then be lacking too much. I don't want to give up gorges, subban, possibly even komi depending on the type of deal they want, all for Lecavalier.

Are you guys honestly delusional enough to believe they'll take Higgins/Pleks(salary dumps cuz they've been garbage for some time now and are streaky/not proven) with chipchura and a 1st or whatever that garbage deal above that was listed is, for lecavalier, even if his contract is a long term one?

The people talking all this lecavalier crap need to wake up, in order to land him you're going to have to give up more then would make it beneficial to the team this season, not denying in the long term it could work out, but there are too many holes in this idea, why would they risk our future and not only that, our playoff shot this season with the already good team we have, in order to possibly be better in the future, we aren't trying to rebuild guys, we're trying to go for the cup this season. All this lecavalier talk is nonsense, it's even dumber the the sundin debacle. 10 to 1 no moves are made or we get a good d-man.

Gainey isn't just going to go and make any stupid deal just because nothing good is on the table, he's a patient guy, he'd stick with the team we currently have then rather then take such a high risk. Gainey has made many extremely low risk moves, never anything crazy like this that could end up ****ing the team up for years to come. There's a reason tampa is ****, and it isn't just coaching/their players, it's because they tie up way too much $$$ in these so-called elite players that don't even put up enough offense to win them games, meanwhile a team like Montreal who has most of their roster injured is some how able to win games and be one of the top teams in the NHL.

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01-13-2009, 01:26 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by neofury View Post
Ahh but your question wasn't "tell me which team has ever won a cup without an ELITE centerman who has done it alone" and quite frankly Koivu is an elite centerman in the playoffs, just go look at his point production during the last couple playoffs and see for yourself.

I never realized also that Lang, Kovalev, Tanguay, Markov, mean that said played would be alone offensively.

Many teams have won cups mainly based on defense, it's more common to see that then a team with only elite forwards.

The only team I can think of that did win the cup based off of mainly elite forwards in recent time was Tampa Bay, and even those who might make the claim Carolina did it need to remember just how well their goaltender played during that playoff. To me, goaltending/defense play a bigger part, and I'm one of the few people who thinks Koivu is a part of the big picture so you aren't going to sway my vote here.

Plus what does anything in your argument have to do with the fact that Lecavalier could end up an injury plagued forward for many years to come and waste us 8 million a year in cap space? Does that not count as some form of risk or something that isn't in our favor.

Point is, I'd rather keep what we have to give up for him rather then take him and lose the depth. Once you trade off all of said players for vinny and vinny gets injured, what are you going to do then? At least our current situation we've already proven we have the depth to have players step up and take somebodies place. Not saying it would be an easy or even successful playoff without Koivu playing due to injury, but can you imagine the magnitude of the effect having Lecavalier injured during the playoffs would have if we trade away not only some current roster players who are good defensively but the future with it?

I'd rather sit tight and wait on subban and just improve our overall D and hope for the best with laraque, then piss away our future and give us and even worse team then we had before. I'm not denying Lecavalier would be a good trade for building a team around but we already have a team, we don't have to give up half of it along with depth and the future just to start over. Because if we give up so much for him, we also lose cap room and can't re-sign people because of him, granted that is to be expected but imo we wouldn't be a better team. We'd be better offensively maybe but worse for defense and overall depth. I'd rather take our chances with the offense we have then possibly ruin a perfectly good team.

Spin it anyway you want, Lecavalier taking the spot of like 4 roster players and even some picks/prospects spells disastor if he gets injured and already spells disastor for our future. It leaves many holes and they also want us to take a salary dump with him. It's much less riskier for the future to go after a cheaper d-man with a less ******** contract and imo Lecavalier won't bring us the cup because our d will then be lacking too much. I don't want to give up gorges, subban, possibly even komi depending on the type of deal they want, all for Lecavalier.

Are you guys honestly delusional enough to believe they'll take Higgins/Pleks(salary dumps cuz they've been garbage for some time now and are streaky/not proven) with chipchura and a 1st or whatever that garbage deal above that was listed is, for lecavalier, even if his contract is a long term one?

The people talking all this lecavalier crap need to wake up, in order to land him you're going to have to give up more then would make it beneficial to the team this season, not denying in the long term it could work out, but there are too many holes in this idea, why would they risk our future and not only that, our playoff shot this season with the already good team we have, in order to possibly be better in the future, we aren't trying to rebuild guys, we're trying to go for the cup this season. All this lecavalier talk is nonsense, it's even dumber the the sundin debacle. 10 to 1 no moves are made or we get a good d-man.

Gainey isn't just going to go and make any stupid deal just because nothing good is on the table, he's a patient guy, he'd stick with the team we currently have then rather then take such a high risk. Gainey has made many extremely low risk moves, never anything crazy like this that could end up ****ing the team up for years to come. There's a reason tampa is ****, and it isn't just coaching/their players, it's because they tie up way too much $$$ in these so-called elite players that don't even put up enough offense to win them games, meanwhile a team like Montreal who has most of their roster injured is some how able to win games and be one of the top teams in the NHL.
I love you!

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01-13-2009, 01:27 PM
  #103
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Now that I have watched the video from McKenzie on TSN there is noway I would want him if we have to give up Higgins, Plecky, Gorges, Subban and multiple first rounders unless Ranger and someone else is coming back our way.
Higgins and Pleks are so overated that the deal would be a steal for us.

Vinny replaces Pleks and Higgins has been more than replaced by D'Ago or MaxPac.

The Gorges part hurts more than Pleks and Higgins....but you gotta give to get and Gorges is good but not a guy you halt this kind of deal for.

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01-13-2009, 01:31 PM
  #104
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I agree - would not want Habs to inherit an 11 year contact with a cap hit of approximately $8+ Million/year .

Thanks -- but no thanks!

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01-13-2009, 01:32 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Talent Analyst View Post
lol @ this


Markov,Komisarek,Hamrlik and Price isn't good defence and goaltending for you?
Not if 3/6 of our d-man are complete garbage and they keep having to be making up for their mistakes.

Many of you seem to often forget how bad a bottom 5/6 d-man pairing can effect your team. You want to have no Gorges, no new d-man whose good, possibly give up some forwards who are good defensively and a d-man who could turn out to be as good as markov, all to end up with a guy who has way too long a contract, could get injured in his first season with us and never return to form again as well as gain tampas salary dumps?

LOL @ you for being naive. Then what happens if Markov, Komisarek, Koivu, Lecavalier get injured? If one of those guys gets injured, you lose a tone of offense or defense or both. Where as now we at least have the depth to make sure if somebody gets injured god forbid, we aren't the ********* team in the NHL.

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01-13-2009, 01:32 PM
  #106
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The reported trade offer in my opinion makes us a worse team today and in the future. Doesn't make sense to do it.

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01-13-2009, 01:34 PM
  #107
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there are too kind of people believing in this deal


the delusionnal ones thinking our package can and will go fetch Vinny

And the stupid ones that think our package could and will go fetch Vinny and Rangers


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01-13-2009, 01:34 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Talent Analyst View Post
lol @ this


Markov,Komisarek,Hamrlik and Price isn't good defence and goaltending for you?
Plus I fail to see where I said that they aren't good defence and goaltending. All I said is that I value good defence/goaltending more then an elite forward, plain and simple.

Furthermore I do value a cheaper effective d-man who won't tie up cap space for the next 10 years over a guy who will and might regress talent wise and who is a big risk for the organization.

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01-13-2009, 01:35 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by neofury View Post
I'd rather sit tight and wait on subban and just improve our overall D and hope for the best with laraque, then piss away our future and give us and even worse team then we had before. I'm not denying Lecavalier would be a good trade for building a team around but we already have a team, we don't have to give up half of it along with depth and the future just to start over. Because if we give up so much for him, we also lose cap room and can't re-sign people because of him, granted that is to be expected but imo we wouldn't be a better team. We'd be better offensively maybe but worse for defense and overall depth. I'd rather take our chances with the offense we have then possibly ruin a perfectly good team.

Spin it anyway you want, Lecavalier taking the spot of like 4 roster players and even some picks/prospects spells disastor if he gets injured and already spells disastor for our future. It leaves many holes and they also want us to take a salary dump with him. It's much less riskier for the future to go after a cheaper d-man with a less ******** contract and imo Lecavalier won't bring us the cup because our d will then be lacking too much. I don't want to give up gorges, subban, possibly even komi depending on the type of deal they want, all for Lecavalier.
You make some good points, but what you're really doing is just making every argument for playing it safe. We can play it safe, and most likely get the same results we've watched, or take the risk, and maybe win it all, maybe fail for sure.

One thing is certain, if we wait, hold fast, and fail - this will be a huge disappointment forever. I'm firmly in the 'risk-it-all' camp, I've been though watching the Habs "rebuild" already, it didn't kill me. So we can't resign Komisarek, Lang and Kovalev. Only one of them would be here in 2-3 years anyway.... I wouldn't cry over it.

Plus if we gamble here and lose, at least during the rebuild I'll be able to watch Vincent Lecavalier, Carey Price, and Andrei Markov play on the same team. That's hell of a lot better than what we had to watch during the last half of the 90's.

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01-13-2009, 01:35 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by kostitsyn1489 View Post
Carolina won with no defense or goaltender.
Tampa Bay won with 3 offensives stars.
Ducks won with elite defencemen and young forwards.
Detroit won with experience and the best defenceman in the game.

Teams win with totally different combinison every year... No need to try and match the last that that won the cup cause usually the next year a totally different team wins it.
LOL dude just cause Ward was a rookie doesn't mean he wasn't stellar in that playoff, don't even make me laugh

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01-13-2009, 01:41 PM
  #111
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i dont know if anyone mentioned this but he is damaged goods. He is still having problems with his shoulder. Thats not good. Since he plays a physical brand of hockey, this does not bode well for the long-term and COULD affect his durability down the road. And getting rid of a couple of young relatively cheap roster players when you have 11 free agents at the end of the year is not very wise. And i know people dont believe this but trading higgins, komi's best friend might incite komi to sign somewhere else as he might see this as a betrayal of some sort. I just have a bad feeling.

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01-13-2009, 01:47 PM
  #112
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You make some good points, but what you're really doing is just making every argument for playing it safe. We can play it safe, and most likely get the same results we've watched, or take the risk, and maybe win it all, maybe fail for sure.

One thing is certain, if we wait, hold fast, and fail - this will be a huge disappointment forever. I'm firmly in the 'risk-it-all' camp, I've been though watching the Habs "rebuild" already, it didn't kill me. So we can't resign Komisarek, Lang and Kovalev. Only one of them would be here in 2-3 years anyway.... I wouldn't cry over it.

Plus if we gamble here and lose, at least during the rebuild I'll be able to watch Vincent Lecavalier, Carey Price, and Andrei Markov play on the same team. That's hell of a lot better than what we had to watch during the last half of the 90's.
you are right but imo the risk of this failing far outweighs the chance of this succeding. Its great to take risks but you do have to make some calculated risks. Right now were maybe one or two pieces away from a stanley cup contender, with the trade i do believe well be far worse off and be many more pieces away from the cup. It would also hurt knowing that we were so close but wasted it to get one player.

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01-13-2009, 01:47 PM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by couz View Post
Higgins and Pleks are so overated that the deal would be a steal for us.

Vinny replaces Pleks and Higgins has been more than replaced by D'Ago or MaxPac.

The Gorges part hurts more than Pleks and Higgins....but you gotta give to get and Gorges is good but not a guy you halt this kind of deal for.
your giving up 3 roster players plus an above average prospect and potentially multiple first round draft picks for a player that brings no guarantee of winning the cup. No thanks.

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01-13-2009, 01:47 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
We'd have to give up a lot for JBo as well.
Also, we know as a Fact, that Vinny can have a huge impact in the POs as he already won a cup. Jay has never played 1 PO game.

Jay and Vinny are also the same size, and both aren't afraid to drop them.
But as we've seen, Vinny has the courage to drop them vs Chara.

JBo is not in any way more of a beast than Vinny. I find it funny you'd prefer Jay in the PO when he's completely green.

We'd have to give similar value packages for either of them, the difference is we'd keep Vinny at the end of the year.

Could you possibly imagine a line of MaxPac/Vinny/Kovy??..that's a very powerful line. Or Vinny/Kost broz...

If JayBo isn't that good in the POs, and we lose, we risk losing him and he'll have cost us some players too. Whereas Vinny is a keeper.
Anyone who believes that we'd need to give up 1/2 of what we'd need to give up for Lecavalier for Jaybo is deluded imo.

People seem to think these elite forwards grow on trees regardless of lengthy contract. There is no way a deal that lands us Vinny is going to be more fair then a Jaybo deal.

We're talking about a signed player who is an elite centerman in the NHL versus a UFA d-man who is leet too but he's UFA. It would be like if I said you'd need to give up something relatively the same for a UFA Markov as you would for a longterm signed Crosby. That simply is not true. Tampa is going to want enough to start an early rebuild if they trade Vinny away and don't be naive, other teams would be making Tampa offers too, it would need to be a solid offer to land him and we'd likely lose many roster players who are either d-man or good defensively, a few prospects or picks, picks which could effectively turn into good prospects, and I'm positive Subban would be part of the agreement.

People seem to think just because of his lengthy contract, all of the sudden Tampa is willing to give the guy away. He's their captain, he's also a franchise name and the reason many people in Tampa even go to watch the lightning in the first place.

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01-13-2009, 01:48 PM
  #115
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Who cares how long the contract his, do you know who we're talking about here? A proven player, who is a Quebec Francophone. Who could possibly be the next Jean Beliveau. He has the size and character. Higgins (hasn't done much for the team, considering all the chances he's had), Pleks (well as many mentioned earlier, would obviously be replaced by Vinny). Gorges and Subban, who says we can't develop two good defence in the near future anyways?

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01-13-2009, 01:51 PM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kostitsyn1489 View Post
Carolina won with no defense or goaltender.
Tampa Bay won with 3 offensives stars.
Ducks won with elite defencemen and young forwards.
Detroit won with experience and the best defenceman in the game.

Teams win with totally different combinison every year... No need to try and match the last that that won the cup cause usually the next year a totally different team wins it.

No goaltender eh....you do realize that Ward won the conn Smythe that season?

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01-13-2009, 01:52 PM
  #117
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I wont contribute to the conversation, but i will ask something: Do you guys like the game of hockey? Or is it only a way to evecuate your hate and anger from everyday life? Because this thread surely doesn't have much to do with hockey, it's only an excuse to complain about something. Something you dont seem to know yourself.

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01-13-2009, 01:53 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by couz View Post
Higgins and Pleks are so overated that the deal would be a steal for us.

Vinny replaces Pleks and Higgins has been more than replaced by D'Ago or MaxPac.

The Gorges part hurts more than Pleks and Higgins....but you gotta give to get and Gorges is good but not a guy you halt this kind of deal for.
Yeah but people are failing to realize you're giving up forwards who are at the very least decent defensively, are a pker even, and then also tossing away gorges, a future star in subban, etc.

It's pissing away a lot of the reason why our defense is pretty good and it's also getting rid of the future for a guy who is a risk.

Gainey doesn't seem to make high risk moves and if you ask me, having a guy for the next 10 years waste 8 million in cap space if he becomes injury prone, is a BIG risk. Imo Gainey simply won't do it, it's dumber then the Sundin speculation imo, and I don't think that by them doing that, we'll even win the cup. Granted our offense will be better, imo our defense will be more lacking then and we'd likely have to even take some salary dumps. Granted I agree Higgins is a dump, and other then on the PK, so is pleks, but still. I think we shouldn't judge pleks too soon, he could make a come back even as soon as now.

I'm not even really referring to who specifically we lose in said deal, I'm referring to the risk involved in tieing up 8 mil a season for the next 10 seasons. There is a reason Tampa wants to deal him if they do want to deal him. You don't just wake up one morning and decide to trade away the main roster player that basically makes or breaks your franchise.

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01-13-2009, 01:53 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Pol1ce View Post
Who cares how long the contract his, do you know who we're talking about here? A proven player, who is a Quebec Francophone. Who could possibly be the next Jean Beliveau. He has the size and character. Higgins (hasn't done much for the team, considering all the chances he's had), Pleks (well as many mentioned earlier, would obviously be replaced by Vinny). Gorges and Subban, who says we can't develop two good defence in the near future anyways?
Don't dare compare him to Beliveau he is nowhere near the player and will never be. People like you are creaming their pants mostly because he is french and that is blinding you to everything else.

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01-13-2009, 01:53 PM
  #120
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none because I just don'T believe in it
Yes, we've been duped before. I was skeptical until Boby Mac reported on this.

It'd be funny if they traded us St-Louis instead !!!

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01-13-2009, 01:53 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by tdecheno View Post
As I mentioned before the length of the contract is not all that bad. Cause if he is truly that crappy, the last 3 years can be bought out for 4.2 million over SIX years at an insignifigant cap hit of 715K...

No biggie.
You probably didn't read through all of the other VL thread (unless you have hours to spend) but as I explained somewhere in there, buyouts don't work like that. Buying out the last 3 years of Vinny's contracts would actually give us a crippling cap hit for the following 3 years - especially the last 2.

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01-13-2009, 01:54 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Mustafa View Post
I wont contribute to the conversation, but i will ask something: Do you guys like the game of hockey? Or is it only a way to evecuate your hate and anger from everyday life? Because this thread surely doesn't have much to do with hockey, it's only an excuse to complain about something. Something you dont seem to know yourself.
What? You make no sense.

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01-13-2009, 01:57 PM
  #123
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What? You make no sense.
I SAID i wont contribute to this thread, zip!

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01-13-2009, 01:58 PM
  #124
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LOL dude just cause Ward was a rookie doesn't mean he wasn't stellar in that playoff, don't even make me laugh
Yeah he was awesome that year, he won the conn smythe!

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01-13-2009, 02:01 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by bwoar View Post
You make some good points, but what you're really doing is just making every argument for playing it safe. We can play it safe, and most likely get the same results we've watched, or take the risk, and maybe win it all, maybe fail for sure.

One thing is certain, if we wait, hold fast, and fail - this will be a huge disappointment forever. I'm firmly in the 'risk-it-all' camp, I've been though watching the Habs "rebuild" already, it didn't kill me. So we can't resign Komisarek, Lang and Kovalev. Only one of them would be here in 2-3 years anyway.... I wouldn't cry over it.

Plus if we gamble here and lose, at least during the rebuild I'll be able to watch Vincent Lecavalier, Carey Price, and Andrei Markov play on the same team. That's hell of a lot better than what we had to watch during the last half of the 90's.
I'm not saying play it safe. I want one of Kubina/Bouwmeester or even Kaberle. I believe they can make our defense solidified, also give brisebois more nights off so he plays at 100% and furthermore stop us from making a huge mistake that ties up so much money for such a long period of time. If they want to take a risk, risk it on someone who is UFA and might not re-sign, then I won't mind if we lose Higgins/Pleks and maybe a prospect/pick cause Higgins/Pleks are at least to a certain degree a salary dump, whether or not they pan out for another team to me isn't relevant, they aren't panning out here. I still do believe Plek can pan out here however though but even so to make our D that much better I'd be willing to accept a trade. Keep in mind, Kaberle/Jaybo/Kubina play a solid game both ends of the ice and if say they were to get injured, wouldn't be a total loss. If Lecavalier gets injured, you effectively knocked off like 3-4 roster players as well as picks/prospects. Imo a deal involving the other players mentioned could only involve 1-2 roster players, and 1/1 pick/prospect depending on who it is we target.

People seem to think getting rid of Halak, Higgins, Plekanec, Picks, Prospects, can't be a risk as long as it's for Jaybo/Kabs/Kubina/Solid D-man, there's always risks when you're trading multiple players/picks/prospects for 1 person, especially a UFA like Jaybo or a longterm guy like lecavalier. But I just feel that Lecavalier would be a much greater risk and would even be more likely to be fail. Imo it wouldn't even make our team better this year with what it would take to land him and we're trying for the cup now imo. Getting a Jaybo instead of Pleks/Halak/Higgins/Non-Roster Prospects/Picks or any of the d-men mentioned imo WOULD make our team effectively better right away. It also wouldn't be detrimental to us in the coming years as we would have cap room to sign other ufas or give our young kids who are playing well some decent contracts.

That's what I'm basically trying to say. Gainey is a smart GM and he makes low risk moves generally, he's going to pull off something nobody would've ever been able to imagine or he'll do nothing at all, plain and simple.

neofury* is offline  
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