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Ron Francis vs. Mats Sundin (prime)

View Poll Results: Francis or Sundin?
Ron Francis 154 78.17%
Mats Sundin 36 18.27%
Even 7 3.55%
Voters: 197. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
01-16-2009, 02:40 PM
  #51
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Ron Francis without a question. Sundin can only succeed in this comparison, if you make a number of assumptions regarding team mates, high scoring vs. low scoring era etc.

Nothing wrong with that, but I'm going with the facts and they point to Francis.

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Old
01-16-2009, 02:42 PM
  #52
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Francis by significant margin

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01-16-2009, 02:44 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arrbez View Post
What?

See, Ron Francis was never nearly as good in his prime as some people seem to think. He never even broke the top-5 in Hart voting. In their primes, contemporaries like Gilmour and Oates were better players, and I don't consider them the best of the era.
How is he second on the all-time assists list, and fourth in points then?

Did he just have a really really long prime, or was he just a very special player who quietly gathered lofty numbers throughout his career and you never really noticed because he wasn't as flashy or well known as some?

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01-16-2009, 02:47 PM
  #54
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Francis

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01-16-2009, 02:51 PM
  #55
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This is silly. Francis was never a dominant player and he never carried a team. He's Mike Gartner with better linemates - a steady, consistent forward who can put up numbers in the right situation, but not a centerpiece player. Sundin is (or at least was) just that in his prime. Most of the posters on this board didn't even see Francis in his prime.

Both great players, but Sundin was more dominant in his prime.

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Old
01-16-2009, 04:18 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dubey View Post
Sundin is and was the better player
Agreed, take that Wheelchair Ron Francis!

But in their primes... easily Francis. There's plenty to be said for Sundin's consistency even on terrible rosters, but Francis' career was just too complete to slight him like that.

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01-16-2009, 04:53 PM
  #57
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Sundin could play another 10 years and Francis would still be better.

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01-16-2009, 05:02 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob116 View Post
This is silly. Francis was never a dominant player and he never carried a team. He's Mike Gartner with better linemates - a steady, consistent forward who can put up numbers in the right situation, but not a centerpiece player. Sundin is (or at least was) just that in his prime. Most of the posters on this board didn't even see Francis in his prime.

Both great players, but Sundin was more dominant in his prime.
Seriously? He WAS the Whalers before he was traded to Pittsburgh. Then when he moved to the Hurricanes he prettymuch (along with stellar play in net by Irbe) carried the Canes to the 2002 Cup Finals, including a win over a Leafs team that was vastly superior on paper led by none other then a prime Mats Sundin. To say he never carried a team is an absolutely ridiculous statement.

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Old
01-16-2009, 05:11 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveG View Post
Seriously? He WAS the Whalers before he was traded to Pittsburgh. Then when he moved to the Hurricanes he prettymuch (along with stellar play in net by Irbe) carried the Canes to the 2002 Cup Finals, including a win over a Leafs team that was vastly superior on paper led by none other then a prime Mats Sundin. To say he never carried a team is an absolutely ridiculous statement.
Was just gonna mention that. 39 year old past his prime francis and his squad of nobody's was apparently too much for a 31 year old Mats and Mogilny, Kaberle, McCabe, Cujo... He basically was the Whalers when he was there, just as he was the Hurricanes during his playing years there.


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Old
01-16-2009, 05:13 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arrbez View Post
What?

See, Ron Francis was never nearly as good in his prime as some people seem to think. He never even broke the top-5 in Hart voting. In their primes, contemporaries like Gilmour and Oates were better players, and I don't consider them the best of the era.

Was Sundin ever top 5 in Hart voting?

Of course all that matters is being top 3..if that counts.

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01-16-2009, 05:52 PM
  #61
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I can't believe this is so lopsided. I would take Sundin, he was just a better player. It was not very often in his career that Francis was considered a star. He just racked up his 70 points a year and then rode shotgun with Lemieux and Jagr. Sundin however was a legitimate force.

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Old
01-16-2009, 05:59 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand View Post
I can't believe this is so lopsided. I would take Sundin, he was just a better player. It was not very often in his career that Francis was considered a star. He just racked up his 70 points a year and then rode shotgun with Lemieux and Jagr. Sundin however was a legitimate force.
Typical FOTS talk-out-of-his-ass.

Francis' stats on Hartford Whalers' teams far worse than Sundin's Leaf teams.
GP G A P
59 25 43 68
79 31 59 90
72 23 60 83
80 24 57 81
53 24 53 77
75 30 63 93
80 25 50 75
69 29 48 77
80 32 69 101
67 21 55 76

When was the last time Sundin was a leading scorer on a Cup Finalist? I love the claims of Sundin playing with nobody in Toronto when Francis and Irbe (not nearly as good as Joseph) single-handedly took a team to the SCF.

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Old
01-16-2009, 06:18 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagrant View Post
It is laughable that Gilmour and Oates would be considered better players in your mind than Francis. The Top 5 in Hart voting is a little skewed as well by the presence of some of the greatest players of all time being in the same era. Gretzky, Mario, Messier, Yzerman, Hasek, Sakic and the brief dominance of Eric Lindros pretty much made the Top 5 in Hart voting impossible to crack. Those five above pretty much rotated in and out of the Hart trophy voting.

Francis' reputation is forever tarnished, in a laughable fashion, by playing alongside Mario and Jagr.
at their peaks, gilmour and oates were both better players than francis. they played at the same time as francis, so they had the same competition.

some of the players who were top 5 in hart voting during francis' career:

turgeon, oates, belfour, larmer, roy, kirk mclean, mark howe, middleton, lindbergh, hawerchuk, langway, vanbiesbrouck, liut, denis savard, fuhr, joe mullen, lafontaine, fleury, kariya, selanne.

top 5 was nearly impossible to crack, yet joe mullen did it?

your claim about hart voting is completely wrong.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Letang58 View Post
How is he second on the all-time assists list, and fourth in points then?

Did he just have a really really long prime, or was he just a very special player who quietly gathered lofty numbers throughout his career and you never really noticed because he wasn't as flashy or well known as some?
b/c he was a great playmaker who played in the highest scoring period in NHL history and had a very long career.

9 of the top 10 in career assists played at the same time as francis. (and #8, gordie howe, played a bit in the '80s)

17 of the top 20 in assists played at the same time as francis.
17 of the top 20 in scoring played at the same time as francis.
16 of the top 20 in goals played at the same time as francis.

mark recchi has more points than lafleur. housley has more points than beliveau.
dave andreychuk has more points than bobby hull.

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Old
01-16-2009, 07:00 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagrant View Post
It is laughable that Gilmour and Oates would be considered better players in your mind than Francis. The Top 5 in Hart voting is a little skewed as well by the presence of some of the greatest players of all time being in the same era. Gretzky, Mario, Messier, Yzerman, Hasek, Sakic and the brief dominance of Eric Lindros pretty much made the Top 5 in Hart voting impossible to crack. Those five above pretty much rotated in and out of the Hart trophy voting.

Francis' reputation is forever tarnished, in a laughable fashion, by playing alongside Mario and Jagr.
Give me some evidence that suggest that Francis peak was as good as Gilmour's or Oates. Seriously.

Gilmour and Oates played in the same era as Francis, so the Hart voting is hardly any more skewed for Francis than it is for them.

Adam Oates was a scoring machine, plain and simple. He lead the entire NHL in scoring over a 5 year span, and it didn't matter who he played with. He turned Joe Juneau into a 100 point scorer. He centered two 50-in-50 players in Hull and Neely. Neither player even approached that kind of scoring output without Oates. In the post-season he has more points than Francis in fewer games. A very solid defensive player as well, coming as high as 4th in Selke voting.

Doug Gilmour scored 127 points and won the Selke in 1993. Second in scoring on that Leafs team? The great Nikolai Borschevsky with 74 points. Came runner-up in Hart voting to Lemieux, who had perhaps the greatest season in NHL history. Came top-5 in Hart voting on 3 occasions. Has a nearly identical Selke voting record as Francis. In the playoffs, he was simply on another level. One of the greatest playoff performers ever, and clearly above Francis and Oates in this regard.

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01-16-2009, 08:05 PM
  #65
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I'll take Sundin without any hesitation at all.

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01-16-2009, 08:15 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by loadie View Post
Of course it does, but Francis helped push the team over the top IMHO.
I thought Lemieux and Jagr were on the first line and Francis centered the second line while in Pitts.

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01-16-2009, 08:17 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by DaveG View Post
Seriously? He WAS the Whalers before he was traded to Pittsburgh. Then when he moved to the Hurricanes he prettymuch (along with stellar play in net by Irbe) carried the Canes to the 2002 Cup Finals, including a win over a Leafs team that was vastly superior on paper led by none other then a prime Mats Sundin. To say he never carried a team is an absolutely ridiculous statement.

He wasn't even a ppg-player?

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01-16-2009, 08:18 PM
  #68
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Francis is easily the most underrated player in the history of the NHL

I think hes like 4th in points alltime

Glad we got to see him in a Leafs jersey, if only for a short time.

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01-16-2009, 08:18 PM
  #69
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Francis. The guy was the complete player. Selke caliber defense, best clutch faceoff guy in the league, amazing vision, consummate team player, oh and two stanley cups and another cup finals appearance.

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01-16-2009, 08:20 PM
  #70
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I'll take Ex-Pen Ronnie Franchise. Every day of the week over Chunky Soup Sundin.

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01-16-2009, 08:20 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by fonzyg View Post
Francis. The guy was the complete player. Selke caliber defense, best clutch faceoff guy in the league, amazing vision, consummate team player, oh and two stanley cups and another cup finals appearance.

No....no...no....and no.




and no.


Let me guess, he was better than Forsberg, Jagr, Lindros & Fedorov?


lol....Francis with 80%, this is flat out funny

Sundin is the most dominant international player the last 20 years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vcx View Post
I'll take Ex-Pen Ronnie Franchise. Every day of the week over Chunky Soup Sundin.
Is that the reason you've been flat in the PO:s the last 2 decades?


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01-16-2009, 09:13 PM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bad Guys View Post
Francis is easily the most underrated player in the history of the NHL

I think hes like 4th in points alltime

Glad we got to see him in a Leafs jersey, if only for a short time.
I'd argue this is why he's overrated. While he's 4th in points alltime, he was never really a dominant offensive player at any particular time in his career. He never once was a serious threat to win the scoring title.

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01-16-2009, 10:04 PM
  #73
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wow! 23 people actually voted for "the big useless"???

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Old
01-17-2009, 07:16 AM
  #74
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wow! 23 people actually voted for "the big useless"???
I this a Lindros poll?

/Cheers

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Old
01-17-2009, 07:22 AM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Nordic View Post
He wasn't even a ppg-player?
what are you talking about, seriously?
That year? That was the dead puck era, and he still had 77 in 80 games at 39 years old
Career? He's well over a PPG for his career
That Playoffs? What does that even matter? He scored in the clutch and still led his team. Here's a list of players from that Stanley Cup Finals that were at a Point Per Game in the playoffs:
Steve Yzerman
David Tanabe (1 point in 1 game)
When the second best scorer on the team was Bates Battaglia there should be no question as to who was carrying the team: Ronnie Franchise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordic View Post
No....no...no....and no.

and no.
Actually yes to all of those, no matter how much you want to deny it.

Quote:
Let me guess, he was better than Forsberg, Jagr, Lindros & Fedorov?
Where did he even suggest that?

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