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Ron Francis vs. Mats Sundin (prime)

View Poll Results: Francis or Sundin?
Ron Francis 154 78.17%
Mats Sundin 36 18.27%
Even 7 3.55%
Voters: 197. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
01-17-2009, 08:57 AM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordic View Post
No....no...no....and no.




and no.


Let me guess, he was better than Forsberg, Jagr, Lindros & Fedorov?


lol....Francis with 80%, this is flat out funny

Sundin is the most dominant international player the last 20 years.



Is that the reason you've been flat in the PO:s the last 2 decades?
Sundin the most dominant international player past 20 years?

I dunno about that... I remember he has good numbers but I think there are some people who could give him a run for his money.

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01-17-2009, 10:16 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Nordic View Post

Sundin is the most dominant international player the last 20 years.



?
Objection your honor: Relevancy.

Who cares about international play?

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01-17-2009, 12:03 PM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macke View Post
Sundin the most dominant international player past 20 years?

I dunno about that... I remember he has good numbers but I think there are some people who could give him a run for his money.
Peter forsberg who carried team sweden to a few medals (while sundin rode his coattails, says hi..

Pavel Bure, sergei federov alex mogilny as a line say hi..

face facts. You're free to have your one person argument all you want. FACT is mats sundin has not even FOR ONE DAY been considered one of the best players in the nhl. Internationally? Tell me that team sweden DEPENDED on him for all those medals? Sweden was so desperate for forsberg to be at the olympics during their last gold they fought and scratched for a 50% foppa to join the team (and he STILL outplayed sundin)

Mats sundin was a GOOD nhl'er who has for short periods been VERY GOOD. He has never achieved any solo awards, never CARRIED any team to ANYTHING, there are so many more swedes that are above him its ridiculous..

get over it.

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01-17-2009, 03:35 PM
  #79
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Sundin means more to swedes than you can imagine. Think Yzerman for the redwings! There is more than meets the eye. Sundin IS captain Clutch. Maybe thats the reason for some of the ridicoulus posts in this thread.

/Cheers

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01-17-2009, 03:57 PM
  #80
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This is crazy that Francis is so far ahead in the poll, I thought Mats would win hands down, although I suppose I am biased. Still, he played with lousy teammates for years and years, while Francis got Mario and Jagr for his most productive years, so that has to be taken into account.

His olympic play has to count in his favour though, and really, I think that puts him over the top.

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Old
01-17-2009, 05:57 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by arrbez View Post
Good comparison, both guys who probably have much more "career" value than "prime value". I'd go with Francis, but it's not as far off as some would have you believe. I don't think Francis was as good as many seem to think, but still a great player nonetheless. Neither was ever one of the truly elite players in the league, just consistently excellent for a long, long time.
I agree with most of this, and I think the point about career value is right on. Both were consistently excellent over long periods of time but never really elite players. In fact they arguably were never even top 10 at their position. I think for a few years you could make a case Francis was a top 10 center in the league, but overall these guys put up great numbers without really dominating.

I do think the consensus will be that Francis was clearly better but it's hard to say by how much.

Francis was consistently one of the league's better playmakers and his two-way game was really impressive. His longevity and two-way play along with his passing probably put him over the top for most people. That alone doesn't leap him into elite status, but his 11 top 10 finishes in assists (1,T-1,3,4, T-4,T-5,7,9,T-9,T-10,T-10) are a testament to his talent in that department. (Note: 6 w/ Pittsburgh, 4 w/ Hartford and Carolina, 1 w/Pitts & Hart.) Not to mention he got 20+ goals in 19 of 22 seasons. (1994-1995 he had 11 goals in 44 games which prorates to 20.5, but I didn't count that year.)

Looking at Sundin's career I'm always surprised at how consistently good he's been and forget that he's never really been an elite player. IIRC he actually only has 2 top 10 finishes in points in his 17+ seasons. (Though Francis isn't that far ahead with only 4 top 10 finishes in points.)

Again as you said both had excellent careers that were defined by longevity but Ron Francis was comes out on top of this comparison imo.

Actually it's funny because the more I think about it, the closer it becomes but I still choose Franics. They were both really strong in the faceoff circle, both put up PPG numbers throughout their careers. Sundin was 30/50 while Francis was 20/60 and their playoff resume is similar. Francis does have the 2 Cups, Selke and the 3 Lady Byngs but that doesn't automatically push him over the top.

Anyway, interesting comparison, but ultimately I still think Francis wins without too much debate. Ron Francis vs Doug Gilmour would be a much more interesting debate imo.

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01-17-2009, 06:34 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet Robert View Post
Ron Francis vs Doug Gilmour would be a much more interesting debate imo.
It's clearly Gilmour prime-wise. Doug was equal defensively, far more of a gamebreaker and one of the best playoff performers of all-time. Hit 32 goals and 95 assists in 92/93 with Nikolai Borschevsky as his best linemate.

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01-17-2009, 06:49 PM
  #83
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It's clearly Gilmour prime-wise. Doug was equal defensively, far more of a gamebreaker and one of the best playoff performers of all-time. Hit 32 goals and 95 assists in 92/93 with Nikolai Borschevsky as his best linemate.
I would actually argue that playoff performances give Gilmour the edge. He was a beast in the post-season. A lot of people may not realize he is 7th in all-time playoff scoring. He had a ton of intensity and drive and really elevated his game.

As far as peak/prime goes, other than the two year stretch from 1992-93 to 1993-94, Gilmour was never a consistent threat to finish in the top in scoring. His 3 top 10 finishes in that regard are actually fewer than Francis had. He was a 25g 55a guy for most of his career during the regular season.

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01-17-2009, 07:14 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
Objection your honor: Relevancy.

Who cares about international play?
We are discussing who the best hockey player was, ofcourse it's relevant.

How could it not be?

Quote:
Originally Posted by the_speedster View Post
Peter forsberg who carried team sweden to a few medals (while sundin rode his coattails, says hi..

Pavel Bure, sergei federov alex mogilny as a line say hi..

face facts. You're free to have your one person argument all you want. FACT is mats sundin has not even FOR ONE DAY been considered one of the best players in the nhl. Internationally? Tell me that team sweden DEPENDED on him for all those medals? Sweden was so desperate for forsberg to be at the olympics during their last gold they fought and scratched for a 50% foppa to join the team (and he STILL outplayed sundin)

Mats sundin was a GOOD nhl'er who has for short periods been VERY GOOD. He has never achieved any solo awards, never CARRIED any team to ANYTHING, there are so many more swedes that are above him its ridiculous..

get over it.
Ask any swede, Sundin have been the best swede in international tournaments during the last 20 years, perhaps forever. Yes, better than Forsberg (who was always injured). When Sundin got to play with decent linemates (olympics etc.), he was as good or better than any superstar out there, Jagr, Forsberg, Lidstrom, Sakic, Fedorov and alot more.

He never got the chance to play with the same level of talent as the rest of these guys. If Quebec had sent Sakic to Toronto and he had played with the same poc that Sundin had to put up with, sundin would have had a fantastic career while Sakic would've been at the level Sundin has.

Really good player without a supporting cast.


Last edited by Nordic*: 01-17-2009 at 07:22 PM.
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01-17-2009, 08:32 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet Robert View Post
Anyway, interesting comparison, but ultimately I still think Francis wins without too much debate. Ron Francis vs Doug Gilmour would be a much more interesting debate imo.
That one would depend on which question was asked: prime vs career. Prime is Gilmour, although maybe a bit closer then many may think IMO. Gilmour's playoff performances push him over the top to be sure though. For career it's definitely Francis.

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01-17-2009, 08:48 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
Objection your honor: Relevancy.

Who cares about international play?
Once again Ogopogo, just because you have a major hate-on for international hockey (probably because you can't accurately quantify it into some sort of stat-based algarythm) doesn't mean it's not important.

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01-18-2009, 02:15 AM
  #87
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Francis, easily. Nothing against Sundin, but if we're considering both in their prime, Francis is simply better.

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01-18-2009, 03:29 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by arrbez View Post
Once again Ogopogo, just because you have a major hate-on for international hockey (probably because you can't accurately quantify it into some sort of stat-based algarythm) doesn't mean it's not important.
Actually, I can quantify international play. The problem is that a major piece of Sundin's international play that people refer to is the World Championships - an irrelevant tournament. The world's best are competing for the Stanley Cup, the leftovers play in that tournament so it really isn't a valid measure of a player's greatness.

Being very good against AHL-level opposition does not enhance one's resume.

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01-18-2009, 04:12 AM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
Actually, I can quantify international play. The problem is that a major piece of Sundin's international play that people refer to is the World Championships - an irrelevant tournament. The world's best are competing for the Stanley Cup, the leftovers play in that tournament so it really isn't a valid measure of a player's greatness.

Being very good against AHL-level opposition does not enhance one's resume.
And it feels like the leftovers in NHL all have played for the Leafs during Sundins tenure. I'm a leafs fan and the last 10 years or so have been terrible. As others already said, it would have been interesting if Sundin went to the Avalanche and Sakic to the leafs instead.

/Cheers


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01-18-2009, 05:37 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
Actually, I can quantify international play. The problem is that a major piece of Sundin's international play that people refer to is the World Championships - an irrelevant tournament. The world's best are competing for the Stanley Cup, the leftovers play in that tournament so it really isn't a valid measure of a player's greatness.

Being very good against AHL-level opposition does not enhance one's resume.

Compare the line-ups for last years WC-final and the SC final.

WC had much better player competing for the cup.


So your statement is simply not true.


And since Francis spent a big chunk of his career in the 80:s, he played regularely against AHL-caliber players.

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01-18-2009, 06:22 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Nordic View Post
If Quebec had sent Sakic to Toronto and he had played with the same poc that Sundin had to put up with, sundin would have had a fantastic career while Sakic would've been at the level Sundin has.
Sakic scored 100 points on a non-playoff team at age 38. I don't think Sundin could do that.

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01-18-2009, 08:17 AM
  #92
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Sakic scored 100 points on a non-playoff team at age 38. I don't think Sundin could do that.
He wouldn't have done it with Gary Valk and Jonas Höglund.

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01-19-2009, 06:59 PM
  #93
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Even if you take away his Pittsburgh days, I'd still take Francis in a heartbeat. With Hartford, he scored 70+ points 8 times, 90+ points 3 times. Sundin has reached the 90+ point mark twice in his entire career.

And the playoff numbers speak for themselves. Francis was twice the player Sundin will ever be.

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01-20-2009, 12:33 AM
  #94
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01-20-2009, 12:56 AM
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
Being very good against AHL-level opposition does not enhance one's resume.
How 'bout the Canada Cup and World Cup? He's been named to the allstar teams in those tournaments. Or 36 points in his 26 best-on-best Olympic and World/Canada cup games played?

And while the WC's is not the calibre of the Olympics, calling it AHL calibre is a joke. These rosters would all make excellent NHL teams. Hell, Canada was an allstar team last year.


Just look at last year's World Championship rosters:

Canada
Spezza, Heatley, Nash, St. Louis, Getzlaf, Doan, Toews, Staal, Sharp, Roy, Bouwmeester, Brurns, Green, Jovanovski, Kieth, etc

USA
Kane, Parise, Pominville, Brown, Mueller, Kessel, O'Sullivan, Leopold, Martin, Ballard, Thomas

Russia
Ovechkin, Semin, Kovalchuk, Radulov, Markov, Nabokov, Tyutin, Morozov, Afinogenov, etc

Czech
Elias, Kaberle, Zidlicky, Michalek, Plekanec, Krejci, Roszival, Kuba, Erat, Kotalik, etc

Finland
Selanne, Koivu, Koivu, Jokinen, Jokinen, Ruutu, Vaananen, Backstrom, etc


Last edited by arrbez: 01-20-2009 at 01:03 AM.
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01-20-2009, 01:02 AM
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Padan View Post
Sakic scored 100 points on a non-playoff team at age 38. I don't think Sundin could do that.
Sundin couldn't, he just wasn't as good as Sakic. Could he have scored some more points on those Colorado teams? Probably. But it's a myth that he's never had anyone good to play with. Now, he's never had anyone great to play with, but Mogilny, Roberts, Gilmour were all solid first liners. The funny thing is, he produced pretty much the same whether he was playing with Jonas Hoglund or Alexander Mogilny.

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01-22-2009, 09:17 AM
  #97
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