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Lone Rogue Rant: Saku Koivu, National Pride and the Montreal Canadiens

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Old
01-19-2009, 08:44 PM
  #26
gunnerdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mariolemieux66 View Post
I still think that someone who does'nt speak french but lives in Montreal should be speaking french more than Saku does. I am not saying that he should be totaly fluent in french.
I moved from Montreal to Vancouver and learn most of my english here.
I lived in Japan and had to learn the language.
For me it is just common sense and it helps in appreciating the culture more.
He does speak some french but doesnt want to be misquote by the media. I don't blame him, cuz they're mostly idiots with some exceptions.

He learned english and he speaks finnish. That's two languages, which is most than I can't say for a lot of people. And appreciate the culture? Montreal is made up of a lot of different cultures, does he need to learn all the other languages too, arabic, creole, mandarin, etc? This has nothing to do with his playing and leadership. He's a hockey player, not a translator.

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01-19-2009, 08:58 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mariolemieux66 View Post
I still think that someone who does'nt speak french but lives in Montreal should be speaking french more than Saku does. I am not saying that he should be totaly fluent in french.
I moved from Montreal to Vancouver and learn most of my english here.
I lived in Japan and had to learn the language.
For me it is just common sense and it helps in appreciating the culture more.
You missed the interview where saku admits to speaking french with his wife in private all the time

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Old
01-19-2009, 09:00 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by ejaculine View Post
He does speak some french but doesnt want to be misquote by the media. I don't blame him, cuz they're mostly idiots with some exceptions.

He learned english and he speaks finnish. That's two languages, which is most than I can't say for a lot of people. And appreciate the culture? Montreal is made up of a lot of different cultures, does he need to learn all the other languages too, arabic, creole, mandarin, etc? This has nothing to do with his playing and leadership. He's a hockey player, not a translator.
Thank you for pointing that out, this is very true, Montreal has for the longest time been a multi-cultural community, it is not limited to the Quebecois. That was a very good point.

I think people should just get over it. Why would he learn french? How would it benefit him on the ice? Does he have to learn it just to please the fans who do speak french?

Remember there are Montreal fans all over Canada and the U.S. and fans who do think this way should not act as though the team only belong to the people of Quebec.

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Old
01-19-2009, 09:08 PM
  #29
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I remember Koivu's baby face entering the scene (i remember him on a line with Turner Stevenson!). Then there was the smurf line. Great post, and you are vindicated in unleashing on that poster, he obviously knows NOTHING about the Habs or cheering for them or how Saku has been the ONLY bright star through the dark ages. The Cup is to be won FOR him. I thought he was married to a Fin though (Hanna?)

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01-19-2009, 09:13 PM
  #30
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Just think in 5 years he will be retired and there will be a new captain. Maybe Koivu will be the next premier of Quebec.

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Old
01-19-2009, 09:46 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by slocheauska View Post
Le Canadien was winning the cup year after year when the team was filled with Canadian-born players. Many fans are nostalgic of that time and it's in some way normal because those nostalgic fans are old. The world now evolves faster than anybody could handle it.
Haha, I think that's totally true. So many of these guys are just old windbags reminiscing. Reminiscence totally transforms everything they see in the world. Poor b*stards.

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Old
01-19-2009, 10:01 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Lone Rogue View Post
In closing, I want to mention an old cliché that was featured in an NHL commercial with Sidney Crosby. “Play for the logo on the front, not the name on the back”. Maybe, as fans, we could take some advice from this. Cheer the player wearing the CH because he is wearing the CH, not for where he is, or is not from.
That's a great line.
I'll put that in my sig: "I cheer for the logo in the front not the name on the back."

Many posters on this board should take that advice.

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Old
01-20-2009, 03:03 AM
  #33
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I would like to add few things about Koivu.

When talking about pride for the team, bleeding red blue and white (well, more blue and white for Saku) consider this:

I his whole career, from first minor team to his current position in NHL, Saku Koivu has ever represented three teams. 3!

TPS Turku in Finland. This includes his whole junior career (his father were coach in the system) and his career in Finnish Elite League. Saku came from juniors directly to the main team and dominated Finnish Elite League for few seasons before heading into NHL.

Team Finland in international events, including 5 world championships, 3 olympics and 2 world cups. Whenever Saku is available, there is #11 (with C if possible) available for him. I would not be surprised if #11 would be retired from Finnish National team after Saku retires (currently Team Finland has retired Jari Kurri's #17)

Montreal Canadiens. Check Saku's stats, he has never even plaid in AHL. From Finland directly to NHL and there to stay. 755 games in NHL [805 if playoffs are included], all for Montreal.

Could Saku be better player? No doubt it, think about his hearth in 6'4" frame, that would be a monster.

BTW, regarding the language issue. As a Finn, Saku has had to learn Finnish (naturally), Swedish (second official language of Finland [Swedish speaking minority is 5% of population]) and English (practical necessity). Yes, he could and had learned some French, but do not compare it to native English speaker, who don't want to learn any foreign language. For Saku French is already his third foreign language and nothing like any languages his knows before, so it is far from being easy language to "pick up".

But Cheer for the logo on the front, not the name on the back!

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Old
01-20-2009, 04:10 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Jedrik View Post
Haha, I think that's totally true. So many of these guys are just old windbags reminiscing. Reminiscence totally transforms everything they see in the world. Poor b*stards.
Most people I know who think that way arent that old, they have one thing in common though, ALL of them... they either speak only french or only english, every one else I know that speak 2+ languages don't care at all about Saku not speaking french and/or rarely talk about the time the league was filled with NA players only.

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Old
01-20-2009, 04:43 AM
  #35
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Hmmm, interesting read.

Not too long ago, a particular businessman started a fervor over Koivu's captaincy because he didn't speak a word of French - therefore, he shouldn't be representing a storied franchise of Francophone origins. I recall there was a dividing line between those that supported this businessman's comments and those that refused to see language or nationality as a prerequisite to being a Captain in the NHL. It was such a huge story that it was run on the front page of international news - a huge debate was started in Canada about whether the comments were taken out of context or whether the comments actually had merits.

That dividing line quickly became a one-sided affair when people realized the level of xenophobia being spewed forth by the businessman - they shifted (rather quickly) to supporting Koivu's lack of command in the French language and saw less of the language barrier and more of a hockey player who has bled the bleu, blanc et rouge since he entered the league.

This thread is proof that while racism, bigotry and xenophobia continues to be a thorn in an enlightened society's side; it shows that the level of discrimination in any capacity has long since become a culture of ill-repute.

I suspect the xenophobic comments that the OP responded to were taken out of context in the sense that Canadian players tend to make the better captains as they show higher levels of courage, toughness and belligerence when the stakes are at their highest. There's also a precedence of "soft" captains like Sakic, Yzerman and Gretzky - players of elite talent who played the game without looking to fight or had the physical abilities to stand up for a teammate. They were supported by players who could do that for them.

That being said, as an observant Leafs' fan, the current edition of the Habs lack that toughness in their top-six that can protect their teammates in a way that only a leader can; it is this particular model of Captaincy that I think the poster is referring to - not necessarily one of French-origins. Don't forget that your greatest player and captain was as graceful and classy as Koivu, but always had the support of his players behind him that when the going got tough, they'd make room for him to make the plays and protect him. Your team today just doesn't have it.

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Old
01-20-2009, 04:56 AM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeysense View Post
Hmmm, interesting read.

Not too long ago, a particular businessman started a fervor over Koivu's captaincy because he didn't speak a word of French - therefore, he shouldn't be representing a storied franchise of Francophone origins. I recall there was a dividing line between those that supported this businessman's comments and those that refused to see language or nationality as a prerequisite to being a Captain in the NHL. It was such a huge story that it was run on the front page of international news - a huge debate was started in Canada about whether the comments were taken out of context or whether the comments actually had merits.

That dividing line quickly became a one-sided affair when people realized the level of xenophobia being spewed forth by the businessman - they shifted (rather quickly) to supporting Koivu's lack of command in the French language and saw less of the language barrier and more of a hockey player who has bled the bleu, blanc et rouge since he entered the league.

This thread is proof that while racism, bigotry and xenophobia continues to be a thorn in an enlightened society's side; it shows that the level of discrimination in any capacity has long since become a culture of ill-repute.

I suspect the xenophobic comments that the OP responded to were taken out of context in the sense that Canadian players tend to make the better captains as they show higher levels of courage, toughness and belligerence when the stakes are at their highest. There's also a precedence of "soft" captains like Sakic, Yzerman and Gretzky - players of elite talent who played the game without looking to fight or had the physical abilities to stand up for a teammate. They were supported by players who could do that for them.

That being said, as an observant Leafs' fan, the current edition of the Habs lack that toughness in their top-six that can protect their teammates in a way that only a leader can; it is this particular model of Captaincy that I think the poster is referring to - not necessarily one of French-origins. Don't forget that your greatest player and captain was as graceful and classy as Koivu, but always had the support of his players behind him that when the going got tough, they'd make room for him to make the plays and protect him. Your team today just doesn't have it.
wasnt a businessman, was Guy Bertrand, a lawyer... who was once a separatist, then a "federalist", thirdly neutral, so to speak... and finally speaking at the Bouchard-Taylor farce to talk about Saku Koivu...

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Old
01-20-2009, 04:59 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
wasnt a businessman, was Guy Bertrand, a lawyer... who was once a separatist, then a "federalist", thirdly neutral, so to speak... and finally speaking at the Bouchard-Taylor farce to talk about Saku Koivu...
Ah. I suspected I was a bit off on who the guy was. I thought it was great that people stomped all over his xenophobic comments - there's nary a greater joy I get out of than taking the time to watch or participate in using articulate logic and reasonings to extinguish discrimination in all forms.

That being said, I still hate the Canadiens. I only go to Montreal for the women.

I feel better now.

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Old
01-20-2009, 05:57 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by hockeysense View Post
Ah. I suspected I was a bit off on who the guy was. I thought it was great that people stomped all over his xenophobic comments - there's nary a greater joy I get out of than taking the time to watch or participate in using articulate logic and reasonings to extinguish discrimination in all forms.

That being said, I still hate the Canadiens. I only go to Montreal for the women.

I feel better now.
you know they ALL cheer for the Habs right ?

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Old
01-20-2009, 06:01 AM
  #39
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Totally agree, I am a proud canadian born and raised (funny thing also Polish my mother's side of the family) and I have no issue with Saku being captain, never have and never will. The dude has given his heart and soul for this team and for the city of Montreal. I hope he ends his career here, and wins at least one cup.

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Old
01-20-2009, 06:22 AM
  #40
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Lone,

I agree with what you're saying. One point that I take exception with is that you bring up Koivu's citizenship. that should not matter one bit. If he has dual citizenship or if he doesn't, it should be no concern of ours. There are thousands of Canadian actors. comics, writers and directors working and living in California ( I read somewhere there are half a million Canadians in L.A. alone) many of them have never taken out American citizenship. Should the Americans not go watch the movies these Canucks make?

Hockey, along with many professions, has become a trade for gypsies. We should thank our lucky stars that we had the opportunity to watch Koivu play in our backyard. His fellow countrymen were not as lucky.

The argument posted by the Canucks in your neck of the woods is the same bullspit posted by some of the Quebecois in my neck of the woods. It's out and out tribalism. These people, both English and French, live in the past and have not realized we now live in what a great Canadian called the global village.

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Old
01-20-2009, 06:24 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
you know they ALL cheer for the Habs right ?
They love a bad boy

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01-20-2009, 06:25 AM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeysense View Post
I suspect the xenophobic comments that the OP responded to were taken out of context in the sense that Canadian players tend to make the better captains as they show higher levels of courage, toughness and belligerence when the stakes are at their highest. There's also a precedence of "soft" captains like Sakic, Yzerman and Gretzky - players of elite talent who played the game without looking to fight or had the physical abilities to stand up for a teammate. They were supported by players who could do that for them.

That being said, as an observant Leafs' fan, the current edition of the Habs lack that toughness in their top-six that can protect their teammates in a way that only a leader can; it is this particular model of Captaincy that I think the poster is referring to - not necessarily one of French-origins. Don't forget that your greatest player and captain was as graceful and classy as Koivu, but always had the support of his players behind him that when the going got tough, they'd make room for him to make the plays and protect him. Your team today just doesn't have it.
In the interest of further clarity,let me point out that the argument listed in bold is as wrong as the language argument.

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Old
01-20-2009, 06:37 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by mariolemieux66 View Post
I still think that someone who does'nt speak french but lives in Montreal should be speaking french more than Saku does. I am not saying that he should be totaly fluent in french.
I moved from Montreal to Vancouver and learn most of my english here.
I lived in Japan and had to learn the language.
For me it is just common sense and it helps in appreciating the culture more.
I could ask you why didn't you learn English while you were in Montreal?

Koivu speaks French, not fluently, but passable for someone who is basically a visitor here. He wasn't born here. He doesn't spend all his time here and the time he is here it's spent travelling across North America. You grew up and spent most of your time in Montreal, why did you have to move to Vancouver to learn English. Montreal is a bilingual (actually multilingual) city.

You see your logic can be applied to you too.

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Old
01-20-2009, 06:45 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by onice View Post
I could ask you why didn't you learn English while you were in Montreal?

Koivu speaks French, not fluently, but passable for someone who is basically a visitor here. He wasn't born here. He doesn't spend all his time here and the time he is here it's spent travelling across North America. You grew up and spent most of your time in Montreal, why did you have to move to Vancouver to learn English. Montreal is a bilingual (actually multilingual) city.
You see your logic can be applied to you too.
Edit: Didn't want to turn this thread into a poltical match, so yes thios statement alone is why Koivu does not have to learn french.


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Old
01-20-2009, 07:24 AM
  #45
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I like Sakou.

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Old
01-20-2009, 07:37 AM
  #46
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There's not much to say about Saku Koivu that hasn't been said already, but I freaking hope he wins a cup with Montreal, and that his number 11 one day hangs in the rafters of the Bell Center. The guy deserves it.

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01-20-2009, 07:45 AM
  #47
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There's not much to say about Saku Koivu that hasn't been said already, but I freaking hope he wins a cup with Montreal, and that his number 11 one day hangs in the rafters of the Bell Center. The guy deserves it.
Agreed. Maybe it's hard to remember how well he was playing to start this year. But he was playing so well. It all comes down to money in this game anymore, but I just don't see how the Habs could go wrong even if they did sign him to a 5-year deal. Even with good young players coming along, it only ever seems to help them when they get a chance to play on Saku's wings.

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Old
01-20-2009, 08:14 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by mariolemieux66 View Post
I still think that someone who does'nt speak french but lives in Montreal should be speaking french more than Saku does. I am not saying that he should be totaly fluent in french.
I moved from Montreal to Vancouver and learn most of my english here.
I lived in Japan and had to learn the language.
For me it is just common sense and it helps in appreciating the culture more.
Although I don't necessarily agree with you I can understand why you would feel that way, altough a lot of first generation immigrants have been here for 40-50 years and barely speak English (eg. my granfather) but understand it almost completely. Is there any evidence that Saku doesn't speak French, besides in the media? Could it be that he is not comfortable with speaking French when being interviewed, but has no problem ordering dinner or conversing in simple conversations with friends/colleagues etc? I'm not trying to be a *****, I'm just wondering, because I could definately see that happening. Anyway, I couldn't care less.

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Old
01-20-2009, 08:24 AM
  #49
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It all depends how much money Saku will demand,however if it was up to me and I was Gainey I would make sure he retires as a Montreal Canadien.Saku is the heart and soul of this team


For the ones that think we need a big strong Canadian at center,don't forget that for a few years in a row Koivu outplayed Joe Thornton when it mattered the most.We never won a cup with him as captain but we didn't win anything with Damphousse as captain either

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01-20-2009, 08:55 AM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Lone Rogue View Post
Saku Koivu is a Canadian.
We are all citizen of planet earth, this should be more than enough.

Good post.

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