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Old
01-27-2009, 11:55 AM
  #151
Dig Out Your Soul
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Rumour from another board:

To Atlanta:

Upshall, Niittymaki

To Philly:

Lehtonen, Havelid

.....not sure how that helps anything, plus it adds $2-3M in salary. Dumb.

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01-27-2009, 12:27 PM
  #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dig Out Your Soul View Post
Rumour from another board:

To Atlanta:

Upshall, Niittymaki

To Philly:

Lehtonen, Havelid

.....not sure how that helps anything, plus it adds $2-3M in salary. Dumb.
Jones? lol

yeah, not such a great trade

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Old
01-27-2009, 12:59 PM
  #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dig Out Your Soul View Post
Rumour from another board:

To Atlanta:

Upshall, Niittymaki

To Philly:

Lehtonen, Havelid

.....not sure how that helps anything, plus it adds $2-3M in salary. Dumb.
Well ****. That would be the end of Niitty saving our ***** against Atlanta. We'd never win another game against them.

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Old
01-27-2009, 01:01 PM
  #154
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don't trade uppy away!

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01-27-2009, 01:04 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by CannonGoBoom View Post
How would we get recchi without moving any forwards?

Recchi has 31 points playing with crap players, 31 points would be 5th best on the Flyers...why would he be playing 4th line?


Other than those 2 points, I really wouldnt mind picking up Recchi for a stretch run. Hes cheap, hes a veteran that they can use, hes still got some skill and legs and can contribute nicely in a 3rd line role playing with some decent players.
flyers would move metro (waive) & cote (press box)

i had him on the 4th just because i could see giroux gettting a shot but i would expect recchi to move up and play more minutes once the playoffs started

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01-27-2009, 01:49 PM
  #156
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The Flyers won't be making any major roster moves this season at the traded deadline like it or not. It messes up the team chemestry and teams rarely do it because history shows that this kind of shakeup rarely results in playoff success. We need to shed some salary to get back under the cap limit once Briere is ready but don't expect us to move anyone like Lupul, Jones or Knuble. EVERYONE in the media wants to move them but I'd bet a months salary that Homer doesn't go that route. Look for him to waive Alberts and Metro and send down others to get us under the cap.

All that said, the only move I see us possibly making is something centered around Upshall. Sorry guys, I know he's a favorite around here becasue of his energy but he's just not "necessary". His roster spot can be filled by one of the speedy guys we have on the Phantoms at a savings of 500k or more. We might be able to add someone like Witt or Sutton but more likely someone who ISN'T on the books for next season. At best I see us making a "little" move and that's about it.

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01-27-2009, 02:04 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
The Flyers won't be making any major roster moves this season at the traded deadline like it or not. It messes up the team chemestry and teams rarely do it because history shows that this kind of shakeup rarely results in playoff success. We need to shed some salary to get back under the cap limit once Briere is ready but don't expect us to move anyone like Lupul, Jones or Knuble. EVERYONE in the media wants to move them but I'd bet a months salary that Homer doesn't go that route. Look for him to waive Alberts and Metro and send down others to get us under the cap.

All that said, the only move I see us possibly making is something centered around Upshall. Sorry guys, I know he's a favorite around here becasue of his energy but he's just not "necessary". His roster spot can be filled by one of the speedy guys we have on the Phantoms at a savings of 500k or more. We might be able to add someone like Witt or Sutton but more likely someone who ISN'T on the books for next season. At best I see us making a "little" move and that's about it.
I disagree with you COMPLETELY on Upshall....His role is as necessary on this team as any other. We only have two guys in the top 9 that bring the grit/aggressiveness of Upshall, Hartnell being the other. Not to mention that he can be moved around the lineup. Guys like Kalinski, Powe, etc. are 4th liners in the NHL at best. Metro is not as agressive and Giroux/Nodl are completely different players. If anything, Lupul is more expendable that Upshall is in my opinion.

Plus, Upshall's salary will never be an issue unless he has unreasonable demands cause he doesnt put up enough numbers.

Also, I cant speak for in the locker room or on the ice, but Upshall is a HUGE part of this team's chemistry off the ice....He is the one that gathers the team up and takes them partying all around the city

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01-27-2009, 03:11 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by mikedifr View Post
I disagree with you COMPLETELY on Upshall....His role is as necessary on this team as any other. We only have two guys in the top 9 that bring the grit/aggressiveness of Upshall, Hartnell being the other. Not to mention that he can be moved around the lineup. Guys like Kalinski, Powe, etc. are 4th liners in the NHL at best. Metro is not as agressive and Giroux/Nodl are completely different players. If anything, Lupul is more expendable that Upshall is in my opinion.

Plus, Upshall's salary will never be an issue unless he has unreasonable demands cause he doesnt put up enough numbers.

Also, I cant speak for in the locker room or on the ice, but Upshall is a HUGE part of this team's chemistry off the ice....He is the one that gathers the team up and takes them partying all around the city
i think for the last month or so he's been one of our best forwards. i think he returned from that injury he had right after new year's and he's been fantastic. he might not put up a lot of points, but he flies and brings all those intangibles that you need on a team that's after the cup.

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01-27-2009, 03:30 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by mikedifr View Post
I disagree with you COMPLETELY on Upshall....His role is as necessary on this team as any other. We only have two guys in the top 9 that bring the grit/aggressiveness of Upshall, Hartnell being the other. Not to mention that he can be moved around the lineup. Guys like Kalinski, Powe, etc. are 4th liners in the NHL at best. Metro is not as agressive and Giroux/Nodl are completely different players. If anything, Lupul is more expendable that Upshall is in my opinion.

Plus, Upshall's salary will never be an issue unless he has unreasonable demands cause he doesnt put up enough numbers.

Also, I cant speak for in the locker room or on the ice, but Upshall is a HUGE part of this team's chemistry off the ice....He is the one that gathers the team up and takes them partying all around the city
Trust me I know and understand, I'm just saying that I don't think management sees it this way. Upshall has been repeatedly demoted to the 4th line his entire time here with the Flyers and onften his promotion back up the depth chart has been in large part to injuries in our lineup.

I think people put too much value on Upshall The Sandpaper. It's important but it certainly doesn't make him unrreplaceable or invaluable. Contrary to "popular belief" here, you don't win in the playoffs because of guys like Upshall, you win in the playoffs because most guys play solid and don't hurt the team, you have a couple of players get really hot ala Briere and Umberger last year, and your goalie gets hot and carries the team ala Biron last year. I don't care how much "sandpaper" Upshall provided last year in the Caps and Habs series, without Biron stealing us a game or 2 against the Caps (where they CLEARLY should have won) and flat out stealing the entire series against the Habs we don't sniff more than a couple of post season wins last year let alone make it to the ECF. Upshall had no bearing on us making the EFC last year and that's the truth. Biron, Timonen, Coburn, Jones (YES JONES), Hatcher, Smith, Umberger, Briere, Carter, Richards, Hartnell and Lupul were all much more important to this team making the EFC last year than Upshall.

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01-27-2009, 03:50 PM
  #160
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So take away the two goals uppy scored in the last two games of the season to ensure that we actually got into the playoffs. I guess he's worth jack ****.

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01-27-2009, 04:26 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
So take away the two goals uppy scored in the last two games of the season to ensure that we actually got into the playoffs. I guess he's worth jack ****.
You do realize that we had 3 dmen with more points that Upshall last year right. You do realize that he only has 12 more points than Gags who missed most of the season last year. Maybe if he we a bit more than less than a half a point per game player last year we could have a few of the 20 plus games we lost by just one goal or in OT/SO. That's not even counting the games that we were down by one goal where we pulled the goalie and had an EN goal against making it a 2 goal loss. Yeah, Upshall gets all the credit alone for us making the playoffs at all last year. Hell, he's not even scoring 1 point for every 3 games played this year. We've already lost 12 games this year by one goal or in OT/SO but if Upshall scores a goal in the last game of the season it completely washes the fact that Giroux has been more productive with his limited time already???

You want to argue little things, I can make a much better case than you can for him being expendable. Personally, I like him but I just don't see him as "invaluable" as many on here seem to think of him.

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01-27-2009, 04:32 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
You do realize that we had 3 dmen with more points that Upshall last year right. You do realize that he only has 12 more points than Gags who missed most of the season last year. Maybe if he we a bit more than less than a half a point per game player last year we could have a few of the 20 plus games we lost by just one goal or in OT/SO. That's not even counting the games that we were down by one goal where we pulled the goalie and had an EN goal against making it a 2 goal loss. Yeah, Upshall gets all the credit alone for us making the playoffs at all last year. Hell, he's not even scoring 1 point for every 3 games played this year. We've already lost 12 games this year by one goal or in OT/SO but if Upshall scores a goal in the last game of the season it completely washes the fact that Giroux has been more productive with his limited time already???

You want to argue little things, I can make a much better case than you can for him being expendable. Personally, I like him but I just don't see him as "invaluable" as many on here seem to think of him.
So, the analysis is great. Now frame it in a discussion that goes like this. Upshall is a player with the speed and relative skill to play throughout the lineup. He throws hits, plays defense (statistically, he's one of the best forwards on the team), and agitates the opposition endlessly. Essentially, he's a speedy energy player.

More importantly, Upshall is cheap and the lack of production you are bemoaning...is one of the primary reasons he's cheap. Upshall is one of the FEW quality players we have on this team who is not a cap problem in the slightest; and is likely to never be a cap problem due to his modest production.

Not to mention...we score more than enough goals. Not scoring goals isn't the reason we lost those games last year. Allowing them was.

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01-27-2009, 05:03 PM
  #163
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Trust me I know and understand, I'm just saying that I don't think management sees it this way. Upshall has been repeatedly demoted to the 4th line his entire time here with the Flyers and onften his promotion back up the depth chart has been in large part to injuries in our lineup.

I think people put too much value on Upshall The Sandpaper. It's important but it certainly doesn't make him unrreplaceable or invaluable. Contrary to "popular belief" here, you don't win in the playoffs because of guys like Upshall, you win in the playoffs because most guys play solid and don't hurt the team, you have a couple of players get really hot ala Briere and Umberger last year, and your goalie gets hot and carries the team ala Biron last year. I don't care how much "sandpaper" Upshall provided last year in the Caps and Habs series, without Biron stealing us a game or 2 against the Caps (where they CLEARLY should have won) and flat out stealing the entire series against the Habs we don't sniff more than a couple of post season wins last year let alone make it to the ECF. Upshall had no bearing on us making the EFC last year and that's the truth. Biron, Timonen, Coburn, Jones (YES JONES), Hatcher, Smith, Umberger, Briere, Carter, Richards, Hartnell and Lupul were all much more important to this team making the EFC last year than Upshall.
Quote:
Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
You do realize that we had 3 dmen with more points that Upshall last year right. You do realize that he only has 12 more points than Gags who missed most of the season last year. Maybe if he we a bit more than less than a half a point per game player last year we could have a few of the 20 plus games we lost by just one goal or in OT/SO. That's not even counting the games that we were down by one goal where we pulled the goalie and had an EN goal against making it a 2 goal loss. Yeah, Upshall gets all the credit alone for us making the playoffs at all last year. Hell, he's not even scoring 1 point for every 3 games played this year. We've already lost 12 games this year by one goal or in OT/SO but if Upshall scores a goal in the last game of the season it completely washes the fact that Giroux has been more productive with his limited time already???

You want to argue little things, I can make a much better case than you can for him being expendable. Personally, I like him but I just don't see him as "invaluable" as many on here seem to think of him.
Phlocky - You insist you know and understand what I said, but it doesnt appear you do. Neither of us know how management views him....I sure as heck will not put any weight into how the moron Stevens view him cause he certainly is not reliable when you consider his handling of Vandermeer and Modry. With that said, I belive Upshall has consistently been on the 2nd or third line this season and hasnt been demoted at all. It was Lupul and Hartnell that were demoted or benched at different times this year. Why arent they more expendable???

If you are talking about what this team needs, and what it can afford to give up to strengthen what it needs, Upshall is the one of the last you bring up.

1) This team scores plenty of goals....Unless Briere is done for the year, it doesnt need anymore goal scoring.
2) This team only has two players in the top 9 that offer grit and agression (Hartnell and Upshall) you cant afford to lose this aspect of your game. These are the guys that DO help you win in the playoffs when you have tighter checking. Irregardless of offensive output, Upshall was one of our best players throughout the playoffs last year.
3) He is not a cap issue and likely never will be.

By no means am I saying Upshall is anything special or untouchable....Its just that he is the last person I would discuss moving.

Giroux, JVR, Nodl...These are guys that will come in and replace the skill element of our team. We do not have anyone on the Phantoms, or whose rights we hold, that offers the aspects Upshal brings that will play above the 4th line.

The most important thing in the NHL these days is cheap, young talent. That is exactly what Upshall brings to the team. He is cheap, he is still relatively young, he is not a risk to the cap, and he has the skill to play anywhere in the lineup. This is not the kind of guy you just give up for no apparent reason.

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01-27-2009, 05:11 PM
  #164
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Bingo. Upshal is one of the players that this team actually NEEDS. He is needed basically because he can play anywhere, bonds well with the team, and is always going to be cheap

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01-27-2009, 05:11 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
So, the analysis is great. Now frame it in a discussion that goes like this. Upshall is a player with the speed and relative skill to play throughout the lineup. He throws hits, plays defense (statistically, he's one of the best forwards on the team), and agitates the opposition endlessly. Essentially, he's a speedy energy player.

More importantly, Upshall is cheap and the lack of production you are bemoaning...is one of the primary reasons he's cheap. Upshall is one of the FEW quality players we have on this team who is not a cap problem in the slightest; and is likely to never be a cap problem due to his modest production.

Not to mention...we score more than enough goals. Not scoring goals isn't the reason we lost those games last year. Allowing them was.


Yes, very well put, and these ARE the things I persoanlly like about him. However, these same things can be brought to the table by other younger and cheaper guys like Giroux (except for the aggitating portion). Upshall isn't vital to our offensive production, he is cheap, he is an energy guy and these are the things that would make him attractive to another team. I don't think Upshall is a waste of a roster space, I just think it's absolutely crazy for people to claim that you "win cups with guys like this". That's about the dumbest statement ever.

Whether I persoanlly think this team would be fine trading Lupul instead of upshall doesn't matter. I'm talking about what I think MANAGMENT will do, not what I personally want them to do. If you've noticed I've repeatedly stated that I want Jones out of here but I honestly believe he'll be a Flyer for life.

I don't let my personal feeling dictate the realistic value of players. Yes I was underplaying Upshall's value to the team by stating his less than 0.33 pts/gm stat but only to refute his being labled as the savior for us making the playoffs last year because he scored in the final 2 games of the season.

One thing of note though, Upshall isn't great defensively, he's actually a bit irresponsible. however, his superior speed lets him get away with many of the mistakes he makes. He is great on his puck persuit and I'd personally use him more on the PK. With his speed he can pressure the point men before they get to set up. If he were used better I think this would quickly become his best asset.

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01-27-2009, 05:16 PM
  #166
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Mike, he was demote to the forth line but not for very long. It was an EXTREME exageration on my behalf.

Yes, we don;t know what management thinks and yes Steven's is a retard in his thinking half the time. I was under the impression that you were stating YOUR feeling surrounding upshall, not how you think management views him.

All thinkgs being equal, guys like Upshall get moved and are easier to replace than guys like Lupul, that's my main point. That and the fact that Jones seems to be a "Flyers Family" guy and here forever .

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01-27-2009, 05:24 PM
  #167
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these same things can be brought to the table by other younger and cheaper guys like Giroux (except for the aggitating portion).
So something that can't be replaced with players like giroux lol.

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01-27-2009, 05:32 PM
  #168
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I hope Upshall continues to be a 30 point guy offensively, if he ever pops off for 45-50 points, we won't be able to afford him anymore and a guy like him should be a career Flyer.

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01-27-2009, 05:58 PM
  #169
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I have to agree that people way over value Upshall. In all reality the guys is about 25 pounds to small to play his style of hockey...yes he is fast and likes to get into the boards with other players, unfortunately, he ends up on the ice more often than not. I like the guy's heart but he sure as hell isn't the end all be all of our roster. Guys like Lupul put up points, and in Lupul's case, play-off points. He may not have had the hot streak of Umberger last year, but he did have a very important goal I think most of us will remember. Also in his time with the Ducks was the first player ever to cap a play-off hat trick with a OT GWG.

Also when it comes down to the cheapness aspect, I'd be surprised if Upshall only asked for his current salary for next year, and I am sure we are not willing to pay him anymore and he goes elsewhere. I'd rather clear a bit of cap space this season, get some type of draft pick or include him in a deal with Jones, open a third line spot for Giroux entering the play-offs and actually have someone who can produce real points that get added to the scoreboard and then win us games.

As a side note, Chris Pronger died on the ice, then came back and played the next game...Dude is tough.

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01-27-2009, 06:30 PM
  #170
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I have to agree that people way over value Upshall. In all reality the guys is about 25 pounds to small to play his style of hockey...yes he is fast and likes to get into the boards with other players, unfortunately, he ends up on the ice more often than not. I like the guy's heart but he sure as hell isn't the end all be all of our roster. Guys like Lupul put up points, and in Lupul's case, play-off points. He may not have had the hot streak of Umberger last year, but he did have a very important goal I think most of us will remember. Also in his time with the Ducks was the first player ever to cap a play-off hat trick with a OT GWG.

Also when it comes down to the cheapness aspect, I'd be surprised if Upshall only asked for his current salary for next year, and I am sure we are not willing to pay him anymore and he goes elsewhere. I'd rather clear a bit of cap space this season, get some type of draft pick or include him in a deal with Jones, open a third line spot for Giroux entering the play-offs and actually have someone who can produce real points that get added to the scoreboard and then win us games.

As a side note, Chris Pronger died on the ice, then came back and played the next game...Dude is tough.
You do realize that we are ranked 6th in the league in goals for? (actually we could be ranked 4th if we score 2 more...) We dont need more players that can score. We already win games 6-5, 5-4. There is no need to get rid of Upshall, to pick up a player that can, like the rest of the team, score points. We dont even have Briere in the lineup. What other young player will do what Upshall does, and STILL put up around a 30 point season. Ross, Powe, and Kalinski will not do that. And plus even if they could put up some points, I think we could spare the 500k extra for Upshall.

Lupul is expendable because we have other players that can easily replace him.

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01-27-2009, 07:01 PM
  #171
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I have to agree that people way over value Upshall. In all reality the guys is about 25 pounds to small to play his style of hockey...yes he is fast and likes to get into the boards with other players, unfortunately, he ends up on the ice more often than not. I like the guy's heart but he sure as hell isn't the end all be all of our roster. Guys like Lupul put up points, and in Lupul's case, play-off points. He may not have had the hot streak of Umberger last year, but he did have a very important goal I think most of us will remember. Also in his time with the Ducks was the first player ever to cap a play-off hat trick with a OT GWG.

Also when it comes down to the cheapness aspect, I'd be surprised if Upshall only asked for his current salary for next year, and I am sure we are not willing to pay him anymore and he goes elsewhere. I'd rather clear a bit of cap space this season, get some type of draft pick or include him in a deal with Jones, open a third line spot for Giroux entering the play-offs and actually have someone who can produce real points that get added to the scoreboard and then win us games.

As a side note, Chris Pronger died on the ice, then came back and played the next game...Dude is tough.
Look at Lupul's contract next year and tell me how dumping Upshall and keeping Lupul is a smart way to construct a hockey team.

If anything, we need more guys like Upshall. We need young, affordable guys who can contribute in different ways throughout the lineup, especially in a third line role.

It's impossible to build a deep, competitive team with your top 6 forwards taking up over $30M combined in cap space (Richards, Carter, Briere, Gagne, Hartnell, Lupul next season). That's well over 50% of the cap devoted to 6 out of 23 guys on the roster. That's without getting into the possibility of the cap plateauing or going down next season.

Point is, we need cheaper guys like Upshall for the third line and to lose at least one of those high-priced forwards and replace him with Giroux. Lupul is the most logical option.

Of course, trading Briere and bringing in a more suitable third line centre is the most ideal situation, but with a NMC that makes it next to impossible.

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01-27-2009, 07:13 PM
  #172
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Yes, very well put, and these ARE the things I persoanlly like about him. However, these same things can be brought to the table by other younger and cheaper guys like Giroux (except for the aggitating portion). Upshall isn't vital to our offensive production, he is cheap, he is an energy guy and these are the things that would make him attractive to another team. I don't think Upshall is a waste of a roster space, I just think it's absolutely crazy for people to claim that you "win cups with guys like this". That's about the dumbest statement ever.
Giroux will never be the type of player that Upshall is...so I'm not sure why you'd even bring him into this discussion. Not only is he not of that ilk of annoying, yapping, guy that everyone hates on the opposition...if Giroux meets his potential he's going to score a LOT of points. A lot more than Upshall can even consider getting in this league. What was one of the key things I noted about Upshall? Oh yes, he's cheap and will remain cheap...unlike the majority of players on our team.

It's crazy to suggest that energy guys are the type of guys you win cups with? It's crazy to suggest quality players for low cost are the type of guys you win cups with? Guys like Upshall are not the ones that lead you to a Cup, but they are certainly on every team that does win 'em. And with the birth of the salary cap, the ability to have players like Upshall playing on your third line and filling in on upper lines is an absolute must.

Quote:
One thing of note though, Upshall isn't great defensively, he's actually a bit irresponsible. however, his superior speed lets him get away with many of the mistakes he makes. He is great on his puck persuit and I'd personally use him more on the PK. With his speed he can pressure the point men before they get to set up. If he were used better I think this would quickly become his best asset.
This statement is so contradictory...so he takes risks but has the recovery speed to make up for that and get back in the play? Speed allows you to get away with a lot out there that other guys can't. Handzus was a fantastic defensive player, but he was that only because he was exceptional in his positioning....if he was beat, he was beat and there was nothing he was going to do about it, because he lacked recovery speed. You can get the job done different ways.

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01-27-2009, 09:54 PM
  #173
Hollywood Couturier
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Per Eklund:
http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Eklun...-weeks/1/19067

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Also there is a growing sense that we are just weeks away from Forsberg's return and Phllly and Colorado are joined by Chicago at the top of the list.

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Old
01-27-2009, 10:20 PM
  #174
sa cyred
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according to Eklund:

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Eklun...-weeks/1/19067

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Also there is a growing sense that we are just weeks away from Forsberg's return and Phllly and Colorado are joined by Chicago at the top of the list.
The title is "Forsberg to Philly, Chicago,Colorado in two weeks"

Yea no **** Sherlock... Thats right around trading deadline

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Old
01-28-2009, 09:10 AM
  #175
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I really dont like Hockeybuzz, but yet i go to the site 3-4 times a day. Its like crack or something.

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