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Tomas Kaberle

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Old
01-24-2009, 09:47 AM
  #126
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Originally Posted by mcphllp View Post
What the hell is this?


I have no clue either.

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01-24-2009, 09:51 AM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Biggzy View Post


I have no clue either.
But Crazy_Ike understands, guys.

That's all that matters.

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01-24-2009, 10:27 AM
  #128
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But Crazy_Ike understands, guys.

That's all that matters.
You willingly admit you can't understand a statistical analysis and yet you are the one doing the laughing?

I guess arguing from ignorance is all that's left of the "Kaberle the defensive god" side?


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01-24-2009, 12:12 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by Crazy_Ike View Post
You willingly admit you can't understand a statistical analysis and yet you are the one doing the laughing?

I guess arguing from ignorance is all that's left of the "Kaberle the defensive god" side?

whats to understand ? its fairly easy to understand. he broke down the time on ice to the quality of the opposition and the strength of the teammates youre playing with. his conclusion was that kaberle plays with the best possible teammates against the weakest opposition the majority of the time. while one would believe that kaberle should excel in those situations his analysis showed the opposite was the case.

simple math really.whats so hard aout that

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01-24-2009, 01:29 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Crazy_Ike View Post
This thread, and Oilerbear's post, should be linked any time some deluded fan tries to claim Kaberle as one of the league's bleeding edge elite defensemen ever again. Kudos, there's very little more that needs to be said. Opinions pale in the harsh light of factual truth.
Hardly. Those "facts" are cherry-picked, and ignore where Kaberle is most effective, on the powerplay. They are designed to muddle the debate. Everybody knows that Kaberle is a very effective defenceman, and he has the track record over the past number of years to prove it.

According to the media, a 1st, prospect, and young roster player is pretty much the consensus return expected. I trust this more than a convoluted page of stats. Anyways, this debate is academic - Kaberle will net a serious return whether or not we consider him a top-15 or top-25 D. Why?

Because he'll be the best D available at the deadline.

Edit: More specifically, we don't know anything about where he gets his numbers from. How does he rate quality of opposition? What's his methodology? Raw numbers can't mean anything to us unless we know the circumstances in which they're gathered, so we can understand the internal biases.


Last edited by grabo84: 01-24-2009 at 01:33 PM. Reason: Clarity
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Old
01-24-2009, 03:00 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by grabo84 View Post
Hardly. Those "facts" are cherry-picked, and ignore where Kaberle is most effective, on the powerplay. They are designed to muddle the debate. Everybody knows that Kaberle is a very effective defenceman, and he has the track record over the past number of years to prove it.

According to the media, a 1st, prospect, and young roster player is pretty much the consensus return expected. I trust this more than a convoluted page of stats. Anyways, this debate is academic - Kaberle will net a serious return whether or not we consider him a top-15 or top-25 D. Why?

Because he'll be the best D available at the deadline.

Edit: More specifically, we don't know anything about where he gets his numbers from. How does he rate quality of opposition? What's his methodology? Raw numbers can't mean anything to us unless we know the circumstances in which they're gathered, so we can understand the internal biases.
Is this just assuming that JayBo breaks his leg or something?

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01-24-2009, 05:50 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Isles_Guy View Post
whats to understand ? its fairly easy to understand. he broke down the time on ice to the quality of the opposition and the strength of the teammates youre playing with. his conclusion was that kaberle plays with the best possible teammates against the weakest opposition the majority of the time. while one would believe that kaberle should excel in those situations his analysis showed the opposite was the case.

simple math really.whats so hard aout that
I don't know, but it appears the Kabs defenders here prefer to not understand over learning more facts. It's the old "finger in my ears!" method of arguing...

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01-24-2009, 05:52 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by grabo84 View Post
According to the media, a 1st, prospect, and young roster player is pretty much the consensus return expected.
Since defensemen as good offensively as Kaberle are rare, especially at his salary, it's easily possible a high ranked playoff team will overpay that much for one.

It does not make Kaberle one of the league's elite defensemen.

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01-24-2009, 06:36 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by Crazy_Ike View Post
Since defensemen as good offensively as Kaberle are rare, especially at his salary, it's easily possible a high ranked playoff team will overpay that much for one.

It does not make Kaberle one of the league's elite defensemen.
This is pretty much it. I don't think he is an elite defenseman as some would like to think, but because of his salary and skill set, he could potentially bring a return of a top teir defenseman.

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01-24-2009, 06:49 PM
  #135
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Is this just assuming that JayBo breaks his leg or something?
Well, I'm assuming he doesn't get traded, because I think they want to make the playoffs. It's arguable who's better out of the two, and a lot of it depends on whether a team needs a PP QB or an all-around type.

I see Florida dealing his rights at the draft after the playoffs. They should be able to get a decent young player, or a good draft pick, conditional on him signing.

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01-24-2009, 06:54 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by Crazy_Ike View Post
Since defensemen as good offensively as Kaberle are rare, especially at his salary, it's easily possible a high ranked playoff team will overpay that much for one.

It does not make Kaberle one of the league's elite defensemen.
This depends how you define "elite". He isn't top 3, but he is top 15. Is a top 15 defenceman elite? It depends how you use the word. You said we're ignoring the facts, but we still don't know how he gathered those facts, or how he uses them. It isn't really possible to understand them unless there's more info.

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01-24-2009, 07:23 PM
  #137
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It's not like everyone would want to take in a 4.25mil cap hit, even if it's "cheap for Kaberle", which it's really not, it's just about right if not a little lower than he could've gotten in the open market (he could get 5+ mil)

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01-24-2009, 08:01 PM
  #138
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I think he'd get around the same salary as Campbell or Boyle. Near 7 mil, long term.

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01-24-2009, 08:04 PM
  #139
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.. wow i don't even know where to start... u do everything by one year it seems ever hear of a good/bad year? do the same stats from the lock out and then see him in the top really fast
YES! Thank you. The whole stats argument is based on 47 games! I can't believe so much time was spent to prove so very little. You don't like Kaberle, so be it. Like it has been said before, the whole 1st rounder, young roster player + prospect was based on what has been said by "experts" in the media (such as McLean). This has gotten totally out of hand.

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01-24-2009, 08:08 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by grabo84 View Post
This depends how you define "elite".
I define it as being able to play at high performance in both zones.

Kaberle doesn't even come close to qualifying.

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01-24-2009, 08:26 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by Crazy_Ike View Post
I define it as being able to play at high performance in both zones.

Kaberle doesn't even come close to qualifying.
He's an offensive defenceman, so no, obviously not under that definition. He is very underrated defensively, but obviously thats not where his talent lies.

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01-24-2009, 08:31 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by Crazy_Ike View Post
I define it as being able to play at high performance in both zones.

Kaberle doesn't even come close to qualifying.
Did Kaberle break up with you or something? What is with all this hatred towards him. I mean, c'mon, you have to move on...

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01-24-2009, 09:31 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by Isles_Guy View Post
whats to understand ? its fairly easy to understand. he broke down the time on ice to the quality of the opposition and the strength of the teammates youre playing with. his conclusion was that kaberle plays with the best possible teammates against the weakest opposition the majority of the time. while one would believe that kaberle should excel in those situations his analysis showed the opposite was the case.

simple math really.whats so hard aout that
How do you quantify the strength of the teammates you are facing and playing with. There is no way of summarizing who he plays with or against by placing a number. Its totally arbitrary.


Last edited by mcphllp: 01-24-2009 at 09:57 PM.
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01-24-2009, 11:13 PM
  #144
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Good to see the kiddies come out, easy report.


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Originally Posted by grabo84 View Post
He's an offensive defenceman, so no, obviously not under that definition. He is very underrated defensively, but obviously thats not where his talent lies.
He's very overrated defensively, you mean.

You can't underrate someone defensively when they are among the last choices for a coach for defensive situations. I remind you, Andy Farking Wozniewski was played ahead of Kaberle in defensive situations. And in case you think that was just Maurice being a bad coach, Wilson isn't putting him out there in those situations either, and when he WAS put in those situations back in Maurice's first season and Quinn's last, Toronto did very poorly IN those situations.

Facts, I remind you, not opinions.

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01-25-2009, 12:46 AM
  #145
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Originally Posted by Crazy_Ike View Post
Good to see the kiddies come out, easy report.




He's very overrated defensively, you mean.

You can't underrate someone defensively when they are among the last choices for a coach for defensive situations. I remind you, Andy Farking Wozniewski was played ahead of Kaberle in defensive situations. And in case you think that was just Maurice being a bad coach, Wilson isn't putting him out there in those situations either, and when he WAS put in those situations back in Maurice's first season and Quinn's last, Toronto did very poorly IN those situations.

Facts, I remind you, not opinions.
I agree his defence is overrated but there's something else which is forcing him to stay lower on the defence depth charts. Ron is playing the younger guys in those situations and guys who are ment to be in those situations. Schenn and White are pretty much getting all the time they need to develop, same with Frogren and Stralman.
Kaberle is what he is, a smart, smooth skating offensive defence man with a semi friendly contract.

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01-25-2009, 01:12 AM
  #146
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He actually was elite in 05/06. Since then he's dropped off slightly. Maybe it's the crappy situation he's in now, or maybe he's just his peak already.. I think it's a bit of both.

On a different team I think he'll do better, but not drastically better.

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01-25-2009, 01:18 AM
  #147
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Well, I'm assuming he doesn't get traded, because I think they want to make the playoffs. It's arguable who's better out of the two, and a lot of it depends on whether a team needs a PP QB or an all-around type.
JBow aside, it's not arguable at all. An all around dman is better than a one dimensional dman. Kaberle is a PP QB, and a good one, but he's as useful as Woz the rest of the time. Leaf fans better hope he's the only guy on the market come deadline. If the Isles decide they'll take a teams best prospect, best draft pick, and best young roster player, the Leafs come in second. Streit is signed for 4 more years, and he isn't getting worse, considering he's doing better on a worse team.

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01-25-2009, 01:27 AM
  #148
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Originally Posted by Crazy_Ike View Post
I define it as being able to play at high performance in both zones.

Kaberle doesn't even come close to qualifying.
There's MANY players who are / were elite that weren't necessarily good in both ends. Ever heard of someone named Gretzky?
You might want to re-think your definiteion of "elite"

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01-25-2009, 01:28 AM
  #149
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There's MANY players who are / were elite that weren't necessarily good in both ends. Ever heard of someone named Gretzky?
You might want to re-think your definiteion of "elite"
You might want to rethink your comparisons.

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01-25-2009, 06:10 AM
  #150
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JBow aside, it's not arguable at all. An all around dman is better than a one dimensional dman. Kaberle is a PP QB, and a good one, but he's as useful as Woz the rest of the time. Leaf fans better hope he's the only guy on the market come deadline. If the Isles decide they'll take a teams best prospect, best draft pick, and best young roster player, the Leafs come in second. Streit is signed for 4 more years, and he isn't getting worse, considering he's doing better on a worse team.
Well, that may be true, assuming the all-around d-man is just as good offensively. But if he's a step down offensively, and you already have a shutdown pair and a good responsible D, you have to wonder if that Powerplay QB isn't a more valuable commodity to a particular team. So far as Streit goes, I'd be shocked if he got traded right after being signed, that isn't a great way to get future free agents. Assuming he did though, I don't think he'd have more value, as he's still a bit more of an unknown quantity than Kaberle.

Honestly, and this is more directed at Ike, if you're comparing him to Woz defensively, I really don't know what to say. Maurice was trying to get Woz to step up and perform to his potential, so they put him in a lot of situations, particularly with injuries. It's not a good point. Kaberle was always head and shoulders better defensively than McCabe when they played as a tandem. His real skill is making a sharp breakout pass out of the Leafs zone, and he plays a smart game with little to no mistakes.

If it was him traded to the sharks instead of Boyle or Campbell, we'd be talking about how great a D he is, and there'd be no argument about him being top 10. I would say he's better defensively than either of these guys.

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