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Jason Spezza

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Old
01-23-2009, 01:36 PM
  #26
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How OTT fans compare Jason "gift wrap the puck with a bow tie to the other team" Spezza as he has been declared even on OTT boards to Vinny and others is mind boggling. No doubt he has skill but let's not get carried away here. Again, like my original post mentioned, defenders of Spezza seem to keep mentioning his ppg status. I'm sure Kevin Stevens and Mikhail Renberg were phenoms as well in their time. I'm not suggesting Spezza is in the same class as those guys but c'mon. All I'm saying is how would he perform with Jonas Hoglund and Todd Tinkerlink as his wingers?

Back to the topic, this is simply a thread on the value of Spezza and what other fans would offer from their teams for him. No need for complexes and emotions from OTT fans.
I thought the SJ offer was pretty good, but like someone mentioned include a potential first liner for the future and take out a draft pick- sounds pretty good to me.

As for Joe to OTT:
OTT's 1st
Vermette
Lee
Elliot
OTT's 1st from SJ
Foligno
Kuba

for Jumbo Joe

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Old
01-23-2009, 01:52 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HankPank View Post
hmm, seems pretty accurate and fair
Not a chance.

You clearly rarely watch the Ottawa Senators or Jason Spezza. You understand he is 25 years old? That he is over a ppg player in the playoffs and his ppg since the lockout is top 5? But no you dont want him on your team.

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Old
01-23-2009, 02:04 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HankPank View Post

As for Joe to OTT:
OTT's 1st
Vermette
Lee
Elliot
OTT's 1st from SJ
Foligno
Kuba

for Jumbo Joe
Heatley - Thornton - Alfredsson
Fisher - Spezza - Regin
Zubov - Kelly - Winchester
Ruutu - McAmmond - Donovan

Phillips - Volchenkov
Picard - Smith
Schubert - Bell

Auld
Glass

Do you know how much that sucks? Massive overpayment. You might as well kill Binghamton (and the Sens' prospect pool as a whole) and piss on it.

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Old
01-23-2009, 02:25 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HankPank View Post
How OTT fans compare Jason "gift wrap the puck with a bow tie to the other team" Spezza as he has been declared even on OTT boards to Vinny and others is mind boggling. No doubt he has skill but let's not get carried away here. Again, like my original post mentioned, defenders of Spezza seem to keep mentioning his ppg status. I'm sure Kevin Stevens and Mikhail Renberg were phenoms as well in their time. I'm not suggesting Spezza is in the same class as those guys but c'mon. All I'm saying is how would he perform with Jonas Hoglund and Todd Tinkerlink as his wingers?

Back to the topic, this is simply a thread on the value of Spezza and what other fans would offer from their teams for him. No need for complexes and emotions from OTT fans.
I thought the SJ offer was pretty good, but like someone mentioned include a potential first liner for the future and take out a draft pick- sounds pretty good to me.

As for Joe to OTT:
OTT's 1st
Vermette
Lee
Elliot
OTT's 1st from SJ
Foligno
Kuba

for Jumbo Joe
I have a bit of a problem with trade proposals like this. The first thing that needs to be understood is that placing hypotheticals like "Ottawa wants to get rid of him" severely hurts his value and doesn't give an accurate representation of what Ottawa would want in return. You may as well start asking yourself "If I could buy the moon, how much would it cost?". In this scenario, there's no option B where Ottawa turns away and decides to keep Spezza for the benefit of his services.

The second bit of this is that you make a strong point to downplay his value, and suggest that it should be factored into the trade equation. It's just not reasonable, and I don't think you could ever get a deal that works for BOTH teams out of this thread.


Honestly this looks more like a Troll from a Leafs fan than someone who's actually interested in finding out Jason Spezza's value. It seems like you already seem to know what it is anyway.

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Old
01-23-2009, 02:25 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by King Clancy View Post
The funny part is that this year, and in playoffs past, Spezza has been head and shoulders above Heatley. Yet fans of other teams think the world of Heatley, and want us to give up Spezza for a bag of pucks and two sticks.
Fans of other teams watch more Team Canada games than Sens playoff games. But for those few paying attention... in our playoff games, Spezza is the star 1st liner and Heatley is the one demoted to the 4th line (figuratively speaking).

Quote:
Originally Posted by HankPank View Post
How OTT fans compare Jason "gift wrap the puck with a bow tie to the other team" Spezza as he has been declared even on OTT boards to Vinny and others is mind boggling. No doubt he has skill but let's not get carried away here. Again, like my original post mentioned, defenders of Spezza seem to keep mentioning his ppg status. I'm sure Kevin Stevens and Mikhail Renberg were phenoms as well in their time. I'm not suggesting Spezza is in the same class as those guys but c'mon. All I'm saying is how would he perform with Jonas Hoglund and Todd Tinkerlink as his wingers?

Back to the topic, this is simply a thread on the value of Spezza and what other fans would offer from their teams for him. No need for complexes and emotions from OTT fans.
I thought the SJ offer was pretty good, but like someone mentioned include a potential first liner for the future and take out a draft pick- sounds pretty good to me.

As for Joe to OTT:
OTT's 1st
Vermette
Lee
Elliot
OTT's 1st from SJ
Foligno
Kuba

for Jumbo Joe
Did you know that Joe Thornton is top-3 in the league in giveaways every year and up until at least the 30-ish game mark when I last checked had more giveaways per game post-lockout than Spezza does?

What were Thornton and Lecavalier doing when they were 23-24-25?

Is that package for Thornton (that is worth twice what you said was fair for Spezza) taking postseason production into account at all?
(Spezza = 40-13-26-39, Thornton = 70-11-37-48)

I'm not sure what Spezza would do with Hoglund and Todd Tinkerlink? Sundin's patented 30 goal/70 point seasons don't seem unreasonable though. Perhaps more goals.

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Old
01-23-2009, 02:27 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HankPank View Post
Back to the topic, this is simply a thread on the value of Spezza and what other fans would offer from their teams for him. No need for complexes and emotions from OTT fans.
There's only one fan bringing complexes and emotions into this thread, and this post constitutes my last reply to him.

So sorry your attempt at a Spezza-bashing thread failed.

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Old
01-23-2009, 02:30 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post
I'm not sure what Spezza would do with Hoglund and Todd Tinkerlink? Sundin's patented 30 goal/70 point seasons don't seem unreasonable though. Perhaps more goals.
I personally wasn't aware that Thornton and Lecavalier were playing with wingers such as Hoglund and "Tinkerlink"... Yet Spezza's wingers are always held against him. It does offer a good indication as to the OP's actual intent for this thread though (comparing Spezza to Sundin).


Last edited by The King of Town: 01-23-2009 at 02:39 PM.
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Old
01-23-2009, 02:35 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by HankPank View Post
What do you guys think? Not because of the minor rumours swirling around but just in general. I think as a general rule most would say a 1st and a couple prospects- one of them being at least mid-high level one. But realistically this is a guy who supporters seem to point out (only) that he is a ppg player. However, that's on a line playing with Heatley and Alfie for much of his career. We're talking about a guy who makes horrific giveaways, many of which late in games. Tends to be lazy at times and someone who isn't exactly a physical dominance on the ice. Also, someone who would eat up much of your salary space.

Personally, as a GM I wouldn't want him at all. But let's say you had a bunch of cap room to spare and OTT really wanted to get rid of him, what would you offer?
People on this board are so ridiculous. If you HAD been watching the Sens play you would realize that Spezza has matured and become more of a force. I bet most people don't know that Spezza is in the top 20 in takeaways, most of those coming in the defensive zone. But apparently Heatley is a saint because he plays on Team Canada regularly.

And it's not even close in the playoffs. Up to this point I'd say Spezza has been the Senators all time most consistent playoff performer.

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Old
01-23-2009, 02:38 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thedetector View Post
Except Thornton > Spezza
Pretty sure it was just to make a point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HankPank View Post
How OTT fans compare Jason "gift wrap the puck with a bow tie to the other team" Spezza as he has been declared even on OTT boards to Vinny and others is mind boggling. No doubt he has skill but let's not get carried away here. Again, like my original post mentioned, defenders of Spezza seem to keep mentioning his ppg status. I'm sure Kevin Stevens and Mikhail Renberg were phenoms as well in their time. I'm not suggesting Spezza is in the same class as those guys but c'mon. All I'm saying is how would he perform with Jonas Hoglund and Todd Tinkerlink as his wingers?

Back to the topic, this is simply a thread on the value of Spezza and what other fans would offer from their teams for him. No need for complexes and emotions from OTT fans.
I thought the SJ offer was pretty good, but like someone mentioned include a potential first liner for the future and take out a draft pick- sounds pretty good to me.

As for Joe to OTT:
OTT's 1st
Vermette
Lee
Elliot
OTT's 1st from SJ
Foligno
Kuba

for Jumbo Joe
One of the worst and least coherent posts I've read in a while.

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Old
01-23-2009, 02:41 PM
  #35
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Package 1:

Gagner
Visnovsky
2nd

Package 2:

Gagner
Grebeshkov
Schremp or Nilsson
1st

Package 3:

Cogliano
Penner
Grebeshkov

Honestly, how do these sound? They seem fair to me.

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Old
01-23-2009, 02:49 PM
  #36
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Screw Spezza ... Heatley on the other hand

Edler, Schneider, Raymond, 2009 1st

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Old
01-23-2009, 02:57 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saskyoil View Post
Package 1:

Gagner
Visnovsky
2nd

Package 2:

Gagner
Grebeshkov
Schremp or Nilsson
1st

Package 3:

Cogliano
Penner
Grebeshkov

Honestly, how do these sound? They seem fair to me.
There is no way that package 1 and 3 work because the Sens WILL WANT a 2009 1st as they are planning to stockpile picks in this deep draft. As for Package 2, I think if you replace Gagner with Cogliano, it should work.

Cogliano,Grebeshkov,Nilsson,2009 1st

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Old
01-23-2009, 03:27 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by toddbertuzzi712 View Post
There is no way that package 1 and 3 work because the Sens WILL WANT a 2009 1st as they are planning to stockpile picks in this deep draft. As for Package 2, I think if you replace Gagner with Cogliano, it should work.

Cogliano,Grebeshkov,Nilsson,2009 1st
Is this draft really that deep? I think it is overrated. I personally think picks 1-8, maybe 1-12 are good, but after that I think there is a very steep decline. FYI to me a deep draft is the 2003 where I think all but 1 or 2 guys are reg. NHLers? Something like that.

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Old
01-23-2009, 05:01 PM
  #39
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I'd love for the Isles to get him.

I'd start off negotiations with our 2010 first round pick(potential to be a top 10 pick), a 2011 second round pick, and Blake Comeau(good young foward).

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Old
01-23-2009, 06:00 PM
  #40
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As an avid 67's fan I can tell you Lukas Kaspar was and is a complete bust.. Wilson's love for Kilrea's kids got the best of him there.. dude is not NHL caliber..

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Old
01-23-2009, 08:47 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by defensewins631 View Post
I'd love for the Isles to get him.

I'd start off negotiations with our 2010 first round pick(potential to be a top 10 pick), a 2011 second round pick, and Blake Comeau(good young foward).
I'd end off negotiations after you offered your 2010 first round pick (potential to be a top 10 pick), a 2011 second round pick, and Blake Comeau(good young foward) by hanging up the phone immediately.

If you went Spezza, expect to give up at least your 2010 1st, Okposo, Campoli, and Comeau. Even still, after speaking to Murray, I can tell you this would probably not be enough.

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Old
01-23-2009, 09:17 PM
  #42
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as a ranger fan i know the offer would have to start with staal, dubinksy and a 1st.

i'd consider giving those pieces up if we could find a taker for one of the three amigos.

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Old
01-23-2009, 10:41 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grabo84 View Post
I can't believe how much people are underrating Spezza. He's far and away Ottawa's best player in my opinion.
Thank you

Quote:
Originally Posted by HankPank View Post
As for Joe to OTT:
OTT's 1st
Vermette
Lee
Elliot
OTT's 1st from SJ
Foligno
Kuba

for Jumbo Joe
Can't afford to give up all that, we're trading and I don't know what kind of deal Thornton is signed to, but that's an overpayment in my opinion.

Two decent prospects, two first round picks, Vermette, Foligno and a rental defenseman?

I'll be honest, I think it's a bit of an overpayment because all those players (with the exception of Elliott) have shown they can play and stay at the NHL level.
-Lee is still developing his game and plays in all situations, usually leading the team in ice time.
-Elliott is still a question mark but he hasn't been bad yet and he has the confidence of the team.
-Vermette is still a 2nd line player in my opinion, he can play in all situations and is a good face-off man. The production hasn't been there for the first half of the season but he has been on a tear recently.
-Foligno is a 2nd/3rd line player. Which line is it? I don't know, he's still in his teens or early 20s and we will have to wait and see.
-Kuba is a top 4 defenseman, he's a UFA so the value isn't good in a trade like the one you are suggesting but still this will hurt Ottawa, losing a second 'puck moving defenseman'.

So not only that but we give two first round picks - one that will be in the late 20s and Ottawa's pick which will be top 2 overall if they complete this trade.

We lose - our goalie, our top 2 defensemen (in terms of minutes and puck-movement), two 2nd/3rd liners and two firsts.

We'll be screwed for a few years if that trade were to happen.

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Old
01-23-2009, 10:43 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saskyoil View Post
Gagner
Grebeshkov
Schremp or Nilsson
1st

Honestly, how do these sound? They seem fair to me.
This is one that I think could work, not because of the first but because of the return that comes with the 1st.

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Old
01-23-2009, 11:09 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HankPank View Post
How OTT fans compare Jason "gift wrap the puck with a bow tie to the other team" Spezza as he has been declared even on OTT boards to Vinny and others is mind boggling. No doubt he has skill but let's not get carried away here. Again, like my original post mentioned, defenders of Spezza seem to keep mentioning his ppg status. I'm sure Kevin Stevens and Mikhail Renberg were phenoms as well in their time. I'm not suggesting Spezza is in the same class as those guys but c'mon. All I'm saying is how would he perform with Jonas Hoglund and Todd Tinkerlink as his wingers?

Back to the topic, this is simply a thread on the value of Spezza and what other fans would offer from their teams for him. No need for complexes and emotions from OTT fans.
I thought the SJ offer was pretty good, but like someone mentioned include a potential first liner for the future and take out a draft pick- sounds pretty good to me.

As for Joe to OTT:
OTT's 1st
Vermette
Lee
Elliot
OTT's 1st from SJ
Foligno
Kuba

for Jumbo Joe


As for Spezza, I'd love to see him in a Leafs uniform... but there's nothing (viable) that the Leafs to offer that could land him.

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Old
01-24-2009, 03:10 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Projected View Post
Thank you



Can't afford to give up all that, we're trading and I don't know what kind of deal Thornton is signed to, but that's an overpayment in my opinion.

Two decent prospects, two first round picks, Vermette, Foligno and a rental defenseman?

I'll be honest, I think it's a bit of an overpayment because all those players (with the exception of Elliott) have shown they can play and stay at the NHL level.
-Lee is still developing his game and plays in all situations, usually leading the team in ice time.
-Elliott is still a question mark but he hasn't been bad yet and he has the confidence of the team.
-Vermette is still a 2nd line player in my opinion, he can play in all situations and is a good face-off man. The production hasn't been there for the first half of the season but he has been on a tear recently.
-Foligno is a 2nd/3rd line player. Which line is it? I don't know, he's still in his teens or early 20s and we will have to wait and see.
-Kuba is a top 4 defenseman, he's a UFA so the value isn't good in a trade like the one you are suggesting but still this will hurt Ottawa, losing a second 'puck moving defenseman'.

So not only that but we give two first round picks - one that will be in the late 20s and Ottawa's pick which will be top 2 overall if they complete this trade.

We lose - our goalie, our top 2 defensemen (in terms of minutes and puck-movement), two 2nd/3rd liners and two firsts.

We'll be screwed for a few years if that trade were to happen.
True. I think take out Kuba but Vermette, Foligno, and a couple picks is key.

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Old
01-24-2009, 03:56 AM
  #47
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I like how some Sens fans have taken to defending Spezza by insulting Heatley... it's always someone in Ottawa right?

Pizza is pretty much untouchable, any reasonable Sens fan will hate quantity offers for any of the three. Fans from other teams aren't willing to part with their stars either, yay redundant thread!

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Old
01-24-2009, 07:11 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by ClubSandwiches View Post
I like how some Sens fans have taken to defending Spezza by insulting Heatley... it's always someone in Ottawa right?

Pizza is pretty much untouchable, any reasonable Sens fan will hate quantity offers for any of the three. Fans from other teams aren't willing to part with their stars either, yay redundant thread!
It's more along the lines of a double standard for other people who don't watch Ottawa regularly. Don't get me wrong, Heatley IS a good player and contributes a lot to Ottawa, but he gets a free pass on a number of things because he can put up some pretty highlight reel goals and put up points in Team Canada events.

The double standard in this case is that people expect Spezza to become a 'complete player' and work miracles in his own zone. They don't have those sorts of expectations for Heatley despite him being older and being paid more, and then they make a point to show that Spezza leeches all of his points off of Heatley as well. Seems to make sense if all you watch are highlights and box score breakdowns, but they really don't know that Heatley isn't the greatest skater, he makes the exact same mistakes and turnovers that Spezza gets ripped for, and he has a tendency to take meaningless stick infractions like hooking or tripping in BOTH zones.

I'm an Ottawa fan, and I still think both of these guys are fantastic players, but I just don't see how people can have unwaivering praise for Heatley but ridicule Spezza for things that both of them have been equally guilty for at certain points in the year. Spezza has been doing MUCH better at reducing the number of his mistakes, so the typical stereotypes are becoming quite outdated already, and in turn it makes the double standard that much more annoying.

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Old
01-24-2009, 07:25 AM
  #49
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Coming from a Sharks fan, to Ottawa Management:

Unless you want to make a fan base that doesn't root for the Senators happy, you DO NOT consider trading Jason Spezza. The guy has averaged about 90 pts per year since the lockout (sans this year, where he's on pace for a godawful 70...), with those years being from ages 22-24, where he was tied for 13th, 15th, and 6th in the NHL in points for those years. He's also signed to a 7MM$/yr contract, which is actually a good deal for a guy who projects to be in the top 10 in the NHL in points for most of the duration of the contract.

Which brings me to another point I have: Spezza has been cmpared a fair bit in this thread with Joe Thornton. This is interesting, as Joe was being hated on somewhat by Bruins fans (at least from what I've heard from print media and the fews Bruins fans I know), and was having a fairly poor season with a team in trouble, leading to a ridiculously stupid trade of the teams top player, leading to a 2-year ****show in Boston before the recent recovery. Considering the somewhat similar circumstances (young player in having a relatively poor year on an underachieving team, seeming fan disillusionment with a player who should be about to hit his prime, management feeling the heat), what I have to say to the Senators is that if anyone calls them asking for Spezza, they should proceed to tell them, "Are you insane?" and immediately hang up the phone. Franchise centers should not be picked up for scraps, period. Especially ones on teams I somewhat like (that should be a memo to Anaheim to trade Getzlaf to the Eastern Conference for not one, but TWO bags of pucks ).

(And Anaheim fans, that last bit was meant to be me saying I wouldn't mind seeing franchise centers on teams I dislike being traded, nothing TOO personal)

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01-24-2009, 08:20 AM
  #50
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Originally Posted by marc-edouard grier View Post
Coming from a Sharks fan, to Ottawa Management:

Unless you want to make a fan base that doesn't root for the Senators happy, you DO NOT consider trading Jason Spezza. The guy has averaged about 90 pts per year since the lockout (sans this year, where he's on pace for a godawful 70...), with those years being from ages 22-24, where he was tied for 13th, 15th, and 6th in the NHL in points for those years. He's also signed to a 7MM$/yr contract, which is actually a good deal for a guy who projects to be in the top 10 in the NHL in points for most of the duration of the contract.

Which brings me to another point I have: Spezza has been cmpared a fair bit in this thread with Joe Thornton. This is interesting, as Joe was being hated on somewhat by Bruins fans (at least from what I've heard from print media and the fews Bruins fans I know), and was having a fairly poor season with a team in trouble, leading to a ridiculously stupid trade of the teams top player, leading to a 2-year ****show in Boston before the recent recovery. Considering the somewhat similar circumstances (young player in having a relatively poor year on an underachieving team, seeming fan disillusionment with a player who should be about to hit his prime, management feeling the heat), what I have to say to the Senators is that if anyone calls them asking for Spezza, they should proceed to tell them, "Are you insane?" and immediately hang up the phone. Franchise centers should not be picked up for scraps, period. Especially ones on teams I somewhat like (that should be a memo to Anaheim to trade Getzlaf to the Eastern Conference for not one, but TWO bags of pucks ).

(And Anaheim fans, that last bit was meant to be me saying I wouldn't mind seeing franchise centers on teams I dislike being traded, nothing TOO personal)


Thank you for your insight and perspective. It is all too often lost on the "gold diggers" hoping to pick up our franchise centre, who is often crticized from the media and fans (and coaching staff) because everyone knows he can be better. AND, he has been getting better. He consistently improves in areas he is criticized for. He works very hard at it AND he never, ever compains about the scrutiny and level of criticism he unnecessarily receives. Jason Spezza is a class act as well as being our franchise centre. We are lucky to have him and he should not be moved whatsoever.

It is nice to finally see another team's fan show some clarity too. I think the Joe Thornton situation, even if you don't want to compare the players themselves, is quite similar to the situation that Jason Spezza is in. It would ruin Murray's career to move Spezza. He would in a few years become the next Harry Sinden, as the smaller parts you would get back would just not amount to enough and it would quite likely turn out to be a terrible deal.

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