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Old
02-17-2013, 09:54 AM
  #476
RED ARMY EAST
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Has the format been changed for the 2013 National in Saskatoon? In previous years there was two semi-final games on Saturday, but that has been changed to round robin games.

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02-17-2013, 10:48 AM
  #477
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Originally Posted by RED ARMY EAST View Post
Has the format been changed for the 2013 National in Saskatoon? In previous years there was two semi-final games on Saturday, but that has been changed to round robin games.
The current format has been in use since 1999 and has not changed. There are no "semi-finals", although they hope it turns out that the final round-robin game decides the pool.

We have an old thread about formats here:
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...5#post20680045

And Wikia has a list of all past results:
http://icehockey.wikia.com/wiki/List...y_Cup_Playoffs

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02-17-2013, 11:43 AM
  #478
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Wasn't there some talk a couple years ago that they were going to change the format so there would be the round robin (like usual), and then "true" semi-final games on Saturday where the top team in Pool A plays #2 in Pool B and vice-versa. I wonder whatever became of that idea? I thought the intention at the time was that it was going to be implemented in Saskatoon.

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02-17-2013, 12:25 PM
  #479
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Originally Posted by UNB Bruins Fan View Post
Wasn't there some talk a couple years ago that they were going to change the format so there would be the round robin (like usual), and then "true" semi-final games on Saturday where the top team in Pool A plays #2 in Pool B and vice-versa. I wonder whatever became of that idea? I thought the intention at the time was that it was going to be implemented in Saskatoon.
That was a rumour. But four games in four days was possible so it was shelved.

Having true semi-finals would help greatly with TV. That would only happen with a final four format (like in the NCAA) or a final eight format (like in basketball and volleyball).

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02-17-2013, 12:28 PM
  #480
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Originally Posted by UNB Bruins Fan View Post
Wasn't there some talk a couple years ago that they were going to change the format so there would be the round robin (like usual), and then "true" semi-final games on Saturday where the top team in Pool A plays #2 in Pool B and vice-versa. I wonder whatever became of that idea? I thought the intention at the time was that it was going to be implemented in Saskatoon.
This is why I asked the question. Nothing has changed, except they are just calling the Saturday game round robin 3. Game 1 winners, will still play on Saturday and game 1 losers will still play on Friday.

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02-18-2013, 09:41 AM
  #481
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Originally Posted by RED ARMY EAST View Post
This is why I asked the question. Nothing has changed, except they are just calling the Saturday game round robin 3. Game 1 winners, will still play on Saturday and game 1 losers will still play on Friday.
It's the 3rd game in the pool, but only the 2nd game for each opponent.

A true Semi-final would be nice, but only on 3-4 occasions (out of 28 game 3s) has this not been a Semi-final (McGill over Udem '08 - ALB advances comes to mind). There are some other games where the winner advanced, but would have advanced anyways had they lost by 1 or 2.

Either reduce the teams to 4 or expand to 8 (and start on Wed. - hard to justify the cost of sending 4 teams home on Day 2 just to have a 'real' Semi-final).

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02-18-2013, 11:03 AM
  #482
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It's the 3rd game in the pool, but only the 2nd game for each opponent.

A true Semi-final would be nice, but only on 3-4 occasions (out of 28 game 3s) has this not been a Semi-final (McGill over Udem '08 - ALB advances comes to mind). There are some other games where the winner advanced, but would have advanced anyways had they lost by 1 or 2.

Either reduce the teams to 4 or expand to 8 (and start on Wed. - hard to justify the cost of sending 4 teams home on Day 2 just to have a 'real' Semi-final).
An 8 team tournament would take 7 games, and maximum 3 per team, just like the 6 team tournament. Therefore, it would fit into "the same footprint":

current 6 team system
Thursday afternoon: Pool A game 1 (1 v 4)
Thursday evening: Pool B game 1 (2 v 6)
Friday afternoon: Pool A game 2 (4 v 5)
Friday evening: Pool B game 2 (6 v 3)
Saturday afternoon: Pool A game 3 (5 v 1)
Saturday evening: Pool B game 3 (3 v 2)
Sunday afternoon: final

8 team system:
Thursday afternoon: quarter-final 1 v 8
Thursday evening: quarter-final 4 v 5
Friday afternoon: quarter-final 2 v 7
Friday evening: quarter-final 3 v 6
Saturday afternoon: semi-final #1
Saturday evening: semi-final #2
Sunday afternoon: final

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02-18-2013, 11:26 AM
  #483
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Unless my math skills are wrong, the 1/4 final losers play 1 game only. I can't see teams wanting to go any distance for 1 game.

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02-18-2013, 03:22 PM
  #484
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Unless my math skills are wrong, the 1/4 final losers play 1 game only. I can't see teams wanting to go any distance for 1 game.
You could add a B side like they have in basketball and volleyball but I am not sure the teams would care about it.

In all reality, teams going to the U-Cup now view it as a straight knockout event.

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02-18-2013, 03:45 PM
  #485
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Unless my math skills are wrong, the 1/4 final losers play 1 game only. I can't see teams wanting to go any distance for 1 game.
Exactly - long way to go just to come back (especially for the #5-8 teams). The 2007 UNB team is the lowest seed, at #5, to win, so you have to think that the #6/7/8 teams are really going to be cannon fodder for the #1/2/3 teams.

The current system is close to providing 1 & 2 a bye where 4v5 advances to play 1 and 3v6 advances to play 2 (winners into the finals - the down side is 1 & 2 only play one or two good games). The current system has 1 & 2 play the 5 and 6 team as well. This acts as a 'safety' against poor seeding and strength of schedule. 1 & 2 aren't suppose to lose these games. Unfortunately, upsets impact the Saturday game.

I don't think a 'B' side works either - once you're out, who cares (what would you win if you did? 'best loser' award). Great idea for kids tournaments (providing a 'guarantee') but I doesn't work at this level).

Also - aren't we playing the Bronze medal game again for the next two years?

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02-18-2013, 03:52 PM
  #486
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I'm not sure exactly how the seeding are put together. But I bought a ticket to the Saturday night 8 PM game. According to the Huskies' site, if my Dogs win Thursday they will play in that slot. So it would seem that U of S vs. Team A on Thursday, loser plays Team B Friday, winner plays Team B Saturday. So there is nothing to assume that the Saturday game is a semi-final. It could very well be 1 vs. 3.

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02-18-2013, 05:18 PM
  #487
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Originally Posted by Drummer View Post
Exactly - long way to go just to come back (especially for the #5-8 teams). The 2007 UNB team is the lowest seed, at #5, to win, so you have to think that the #6/7/8 teams are really going to be cannon fodder for the #1/2/3 teams.

The current system is close to providing 1 & 2 a bye where 4v5 advances to play 1 and 3v6 advances to play 2 (winners into the finals - the down side is 1 & 2 only play one or two good games). The current system has 1 & 2 play the 5 and 6 team as well. This acts as a 'safety' against poor seeding and strength of schedule. 1 & 2 aren't suppose to lose these games. Unfortunately, upsets impact the Saturday game.

I don't think a 'B' side works either - once you're out, who cares (what would you win if you did? 'best loser' award). Great idea for kids tournaments (providing a 'guarantee') but I doesn't work at this level).

Also - aren't we playing the Bronze medal game again for the next two years?
I don't think that the rankings matter all that much. It only would come into play if a real outsider happened to qualify, and that has not happened since Brock. And even then I don't recall if they were technically the 6th seed. The conference winners get the top 3 seeds and when a conference has two reps they go into opposite pools. Those two rules often allow for only one possibility for the pools. Over the past few years UNB and Alberta (in their good years) are normally favourites, other CW or AUS teams are threats, and OUA teams rate as either threats or (rarely) outsiders.

Your latter point tends to refute the "one game problem". I do not believe that any team enters the U-Cup thinking anything other than what they have to do to win it. Either one loss eliminates you or it does not. IMO it is better to have guaranteed semi-finals. There is not enough time for more than 3 games in 4 days. This means double knock-out is not possible.

I don't beiieve they went through with the bronze game. I think it would be a good idea since it is done in all other CIS tournaments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shootmaster_44 View Post
I'm not sure exactly how the seeding are put together. But I bought a ticket to the Saturday night 8 PM game. According to the Huskies' site, if my Dogs win Thursday they will play in that slot. So it would seem that U of S vs. Team A on Thursday, loser plays Team B Friday, winner plays Team B Saturday. So there is nothing to assume that the Saturday game is a semi-final. It could very well be 1 vs. 3.
The host gets to pick between a Thursday or Friday start and the evening or afternoon pool. They usually choose Thursday evening.

This does not affect seedings. The host could be the #6 seed and get the same schedule.

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02-18-2013, 08:36 PM
  #488
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The host gets to pick between a Thursday or Friday start and the evening or afternoon pool. They usually choose Thursday evening.

This does not affect seedings. The host could be the #6 seed and get the same schedule.
That's true, all I was saying is that there are no semi-finals. The Huskies play Team A on Thursday and then if they lose they play Team B on Friday and if they win they play Team B on Saturday.

Let's assume they lose Game 1 and win Game 2, that would make Team A 1-0, Huskies 1-1 and Team B 0-1 heading into Game 3. This means that Game 3 isn't a semi-final, but rather sees Team A placed #1 and Team B placed #3. So depending on a goal differential, if Team B wins, it could see the Huskies placing anywhere from 1st to 3rd in their pool. If Team A wins Game 3, that technically would make it a semi-final, though not 1st place vs. 2nd place. But Team A would advance to the Final with a win.

The only way you would see a semi-final would be if they expanded the tournament to 8 teams from 6 teams. The problem with a single game knockout is it might hurt ticket sales for the host team. If the Huskies bow out in their initial game, it means selling tickets is an issue. This way it guarantees that likely there will be 10,000+ for two games in this tournament. Honestly, a better business model would be to have the Huskies play Thursday and Saturday win or lose. Thus, there would be no question as to which game fans would need to buy tickets to.

However, in a 15,000 seat arena I have a suspicion you will see plenty of walk-up sales. This is more of an issue in a place like Thunder Bay or Fredericton where the arena is small and tickets aren't very likely to be available walk-up.

It is too bad that the University Cup falls during the end of the term. If it were at a different time, it could be held like the Memorial Cup over the span of the week or two and have each game scheduled in advance. Instead of ranking them, the easiest thing would be to simply slot in the host, three conference champions and each of the wildcards. I'm not entirely sure what purpose the ranking does or for that matter why it isn't a 4 team tournament set up like the Memorial Cup. You only really need a wildcard once the RESQ sets up a full hockey conference and declares a champion. Until then the host and three conference champions are all that are really necessary.

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02-18-2013, 09:13 PM
  #489
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The exact situation you describe happened in Saskatchewan's pool last year. McGill beat Moncton on Thursday and then Moncton beat Saskatchewan on Friday, setting up a match-up on Saturday between 1-0 McGill and 0-1 Saskatchewan. The Huskies won to leave all 3 teams at 1-1, but McGill advanced on goal differential.

So there wasn't a true semi-final last year (or the year before either actually, when 1-0 McGill played 0-1 Alberta on Saturday with X having lost to McGill and beating Alberta earlier)..,but such instances have been pretty rare since they have gone to this format.

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02-18-2013, 11:33 PM
  #490
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shootmaster_44 View Post
... The problem with a single game knockout is it might hurt ticket sales for the host team. If the Huskies bow out in their initial game, it means selling tickets is an issue. This way it guarantees that likely there will be 10,000+ for two games in this tournament. Honestly, a better business model would be to have the Huskies play Thursday and Saturday win or lose. Thus, there would be no question as to which game fans would need to buy tickets to. ...
If the home team loses game 1 then walk-up sales will slow to a trickle in any event. IIRC that happened in Lakehead.

If they want multiple meaningful games for the host then a whole new format would be required. If you want to hold the tournament within 4 days then byes cannot happen. Byes are inevitable in a 3-team pool.

Therefore, that leaves having each team play two random games then have the top 4 play semi-finals after applying all tie-breaking criteria. This means there would be 4 games in 4 days and there would always be a controversy over goals +/- deciding playoff berths. And there would be empty arenas for the early breakfast games.

It would look like this:

Thursday 12:00 Team 1 v Team 6
Thursday 4:00 Team 2 v Team 4
Thursday 8:00 Team 3 v Team 5

Friday 12:00 Team 2 v Team 6
Friday 4:00 Team 3 v Team 4
Friday 8:00 Team 1 v Team 5

Saturday 2:00 semi-final #1
Saturday 7:00 semi-final #2

Sunday 7:00 (or whatever the broadcaster decides) final

Team 1-3 would be the conference winners as per the current regulation. The host would play the late game Thursday and Friday. (I assumed Sask would be Team 5 for illustration purposes only.) Once the schedule is shuffled the host's opponent for Thursday's game would play the Friday 4:00 game, i.e. teams would not play at 8:00 and then again the next day at 12:00.

Here's what the 2012 tournament would have looked like (using actual scores when possible):

Thursday 12:00 McGill v W. Ontario (4-3 ot)
Thursday 4:00 Sask v Moncton (1-5)
Thursday 8:00 UNB v UQTR (6-1)

Friday 12:00 Sask v W. Ontario (3-4 ot*)
Friday 4:00 McGill v UQTR (3-2)
Friday 8:00 UNB v Moncton (4-0)

(* I gave UWO the win because they beat UQTR and UNB and those do not show up in this schedule. Sask did beat McGill in their second game. But what the heck, this is just an illustration. McGill beat UQTR in OUA playoffs and UNB beat Moncton in AUS playoffs.)

UNB 2-0 (10-1)
McGill 2-0 (7-5)
Moncton 1-1 (5-5)
UWO 1-1 (7-7)
Sask 0-1-1 (4-9)
UQTR 0-2 (3-9)

(I would also suggest that the CIS award 3 points for a regulation win to reduce the chances of a tie in the final standings. The IIHF does it, so why not?)

Saturday 2:00 semi-final #1 McGill v Moncton (6-3)
Saturday 7:00 semi-final #2 UNB v UWO (2-3)

Personally, I would like the 8 team format of single knock-out games. Nice and simple, consistent with what the other sports do, and like the Frozen Four with only one extra round.


Last edited by Hollywood3: 02-19-2013 at 11:44 AM.
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02-19-2013, 12:08 PM
  #491
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Pretend 4-Game Tournament

I am not sure I like the alternative format I posted above. But it would be kind of interesting.

If it were in place for this year, let's pretend this happened:

Step 1: conference finals:
CW: Manitoba beats Alberta in final
OUA: Windsor beats Carleton in final
AUS: UNB beats Acadia in final

Step 2: allocation of other berths:
OUA2 berth: Carleton
CIS rotating wild-card: Acadia
Host: Saskatchewan

Step 3: Seedings:
1 - UNB
2 - Manitoba
3 - Windsor
4 - Saskatchewan
5 - Acadia
6 - Carleton

Step 4: Shift schedule so Team 4 plays the late games and Team 2 plays Friday at 4:00:

Thursday 12:00 Team 1 v Team 6
Thursday 4:00 Team 3 v Team 5
Thursday 8:00 Team 2 v Team 4

Friday 12:00 Team 1 v Team 5
Friday 4:00 Team 2 v Team 6
Friday 8:00 Team 3 v Team 4

Step 5: Plug in teams:

Thursday 12:00 New Brunswick v Carleton
Thursday 4:00 Windsor v Acadia
Thursday 8:00 Manitoba v Saskatchewan

Friday 12:00 New Brunswick v Acadia
Friday 4:00 Manitoba v Carleton
Friday 8:00 Windsor v Saskatchewan

Saturday 2:00 semi-final #1
Saturday 7:00 semi-final #2

Sunday 7:00 (or whatever the broadcaster decides) final

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03-16-2013, 09:18 PM
  #492
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Pretend 4 Game Tournament Updated

I do not like the 6 team tournament but if the 4 game set-up were in play this year, it would have looked like this (skipping to step 3):

Step 3: Seedings:
1 - Alberta
2 - UNB
3 - UQTR
4 - Saint Mary's
5 - Saskatchewan
6 - Waterloo

Step 4: Shift schedule so Team 5 plays the late games and Team 3 plays Friday at 4:00:

Thursday 12:00 Team 1 v Team 6
Thursday 4:00 Team 2 v Team 4
Thursday 8:00 Team 3 v Team 5

Friday 12:00 Team 2 v Team 6
Friday 4:00 Team 3 v Team 4
Friday 8:00 Team 1 v Team 5

Step 5: Plug in teams:

Thursday 12:00 Alberta v Waterloo
Thursday 4:00 New Brunswick v Saint Mary's
Thursday 8:00 UQTR v Saskatchewan

Friday 12:00 New Brunswick v Waterloo
Friday 4:00 UQTR v Saint Mary's
Friday 8:00 Alberta v Saskatchewan

Saturday 2:00 semi-final #1
Saturday 7:00 semi-final #2

Sunday 7:00 (or whatever the broadcaster decides) final

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