I agree, Grachev was alright in the beginning of the tourny, but was straight up dominant towards the end, by the last 3 or so games.
I don't agree at all.
Almost every year future greats are dominant in the WJCH's. Its ridiculos to say that Grachev even remotely played at a level at the WJC's that guys like Bergeron, Crosby, Malkin, AO, Carter, Getzlaf, Kessel, Parise and many many others have played at.
If Avy think Grachev's defensive play made up for the diffrence between his offensive performance and thoose listed aboves; I don't think he gets the context of the discussion.
Any talk about Grachev beeing dominant at the WJCs just isn't in touch with reality. A dominant player in the WJC's scores 1.5 points per game and easily is a threat EVERY shift. Grachev had 5 pts in 7 games...
Its not easy to find a example of a star in the NHL who played in the WJC without dominating, and Grachev did not dominate in the WJC's. If we were talking about him as a future 2nd line player in the NHL its a diffrent context and Grachev would have been impressive. But thats not the context in this case Avy.
That is the top of the list? Im suprised to not see Tavares under best shot.
They broke it down by conference.... Grachev was rated in the Eastern Conference only.... Impressive nonetheless! Looks like his speed does exist and isn't just a figment of optimistic Ranger fans' expectations....
Almost every year future greats are dominant in the WJCH's. Its ridiculos to say that Grachev even remotely played at a level at the WJC's that guys like Bergeron, Crosby, Malkin, AO, Carter, Getzlaf, Kessel, Parise and many many others have played at.
If Avy think Grachev's defensive play made up for the diffrence between his offensive performance and thoose listed aboves; I don't think he gets the context of the discussion.
Any talk about Grachev beeing dominant at the WJCs just isn't in touch with reality. A dominant player in the WJC's scores 1.5 points per game and easily is a threat EVERY shift. Grachev had 5 pts in 7 games...
Its not easy to find a example of a star in the NHL who played in the WJC without dominating, and Grachev did not dominate in the WJC's. If we were talking about him as a future 2nd line player in the NHL its a diffrent context and Grachev would have been impressive. But thats not the context in this case Avy.
I don't get whats so horrible about not beliving that Grachev will become a 1st line star, goto player type. If anyone belives that, great.
Nobody said it's horrible. He's probably one of the best prospects the Rangers have had in quite some time, so naturally people are going to be excited.
I just don't believe that one mediocre WJC performance is a sure sign that he's not going to be a first liner. Going from wing to center is a drastic change in terms of defensive responsibility, you know that, so it's to be expected that his offensive game might suffer.
I don't think he's anywhere close to a Jagr, Malkin, etc., but I think it's too early to write him off as a probable second liner as well. 80pts in his rookie season is very promising.
There are a few, but not many. And Gaborik was really impressive, but played on a very weak Slovak team thoose years. He and Kopecky centered the 1st line when both were 17 y/o's.
There are a few, but not many. And Gaborik was really impressive, but played on a very weak Slovak team thoose years. He and Kopecky centered the 1st line when both were 17 y/o's.
Actually they were the first two guys I looked up and they both happened to have less than "dominant" WJC's, go figure
Honestly, judging 17-18 year old players on WJC play is silly
Yet it's still probably the period under which the world's top hockey prospects are under the most scrutiny throughout their pre-professional careers. They're being watched carefully, not only to see how they play, but how they handle pressure. The WJC is a pretty big deal.
Yet it's still probably the period under which the world's top hockey prospects are under the most scrutiny throughout their pre-professional careers. They're being watched carefully, not only to see how they play, but how they handle pressure. The WJC is a pretty big deal.
Yea but it is what, a 5 game tournament?
It is not the best thing to judge a player by. Regular season play and playoffs are the better barometer.
The fact he finished the regular season 3 goals shy of the golden boy Hodgson, and more points and goals then the next wonder boy Duchene... says a lot.
Yet it's still probably the period under which the world's top hockey prospects are under the most scrutiny throughout their pre-professional careers. They're being watched carefully, not only to see how they play, but how they handle pressure. The WJC is a pretty big deal.
I think it's kind of overrated, honestly. Short tournaments don't always give you a very good feel of a player. Not saying it's worthless, but I think the idea that if someone doesn't perform amazingly well at one, then they're on iffy ground, is a bit foolish.
Yet it's still probably the period under which the world's top hockey prospects are under the most scrutiny throughout their pre-professional careers. They're being watched carefully, not only to see how they play, but how they handle pressure. The WJC is a pretty big deal.
Yeah, and you get to see them play each other.
Cross scouting is the hardest thing in scouting without any doubt. Like you watch a kid in a 2nd tier league in Slovakia one nigh, and then a kid in the QMJHL the other -- who of the two was the best skater? Was the kid in the Slovakia the fastest, or was his opponenets just slow?
Hockey is like that, a 4th tier league always have stars who makes as impressive moves and dominates as much there as the Jagr's in the NHL. Atleast over here in Europe. 14 y/o's can be more inventive then the biggest stars. The game of hockey is all about beeing able to create offense at a high pace in a high tempo game. Allot of hockeyplayers there can shot the puck and dangle it, not many can do it at NHL speed.
And thoose diffrent enviorments for the prospects, the Slovakian league, College hockey, the WHL for example -- they all change constantly. Like a country like Slovakia can during only a handful of years produce a bunch of stars like Palffy, Bondra, Demitra, Satan and co, and then go a decade without producing any talents like that. Any scout can tell who's the best prospect in Slovakia, whats hard is to compare the best prospect in Slovakia with like a top 15 player in the CHL...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Levitate
Being silly? Yeah pretty much
Yeah obviously...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Levitate
I think it's kind of overrated, honestly. Short tournaments don't always give you a very good feel of a player. Not saying it's worthless, but I think the idea that if someone doesn't perform amazingly well at one, then they're on iffy ground, is a bit foolish.
It depends what you are looking for.
But also, the diffrence between the best 19 y/o's -- thoose who become goto stars in the NHL -- are often so big they have every margin to overcome that.
Out of every year group there is like an avg of 2-3 players like that. Most of them make the jump to the NHL right when they are 18 too. But when they play in the WJC's after they have been drafted they are usually very dominant...
Then stats seldom tells the whole picture. And 7 games is a short timeframe. But if you watch the games its not hard to pick out who is having the margins against him et c.
It is not the best thing to judge a player by. Regular season play and playoffs are the better barometer.
Not when it comes to a player like Robbie Schremp for example. He was dominating the OHL, or was it the WHL?, tremendously and everyone raved about him. Then he couldn't even hold a regular shift in the WJC's and was only used as a PP specialist.
Like the OHL for example, isn't a very good league. There is allot of examples of players who have put up a allot of pts in the OHL without ever comming close to making it to the NHL.
Not when it comes to a player like Robbie Schremp for example. He was dominating the OHL, or was it the WHL?, tremendously and everyone raved about him. Then he couldn't even hold a regular shift in the WJC's and was only used as a PP specialist.
Like the OHL for example, isn't a very good league. There is allot of examples of players who have put up a allot of pts in the OHL without ever comming close to making it to the NHL.
Really, you can say the same thing about the WHL and certainly the QMJHL. Looking at the top scorers for the WHL by season, here are the guys that finished in the top 20 and eventually became NHL regulars:
2000: Jarret Stoll, Scottie Upshall, Marcel Hossa
2001: Joffrey Lupul
2002: Erik Christensen, Brooks Laich
2003: Eric Fehr, Brandon Dubinsky, Clarke MacArthur, Tomas Fleischmann, Ryan Getzlaf, Andrew Ladd, Nigel Dawes
2004: Gilbert Brule, Mike Green
2005: Devin Setoguchi, Blake Comeau
Other than 2003, the WHL hasn't exactly been churning out awesome NHL players of late. Compare to the OHL:
2000: Jason Spezza, Branko Radivojevic, Kyle Wellwood, Brad Boyes, Steve Ott, Stephen Weiss, Derek Roy, Mike Zigomanis
2001: Patrick O'Sullivan, Martin St. Pierre, Matt Stajan
2002: Eric Staal, Mike Richards, Dustin Brown, Corey Perry, Chad LaRose
2003: Daniel Paille
2004: Bobby Ryan, Jeff Carter, Wojtek Wolski,
2005: Dave Bolland, Bryan Little, Ryan Callahan
I'll take the offensive talent coming out of the OHL any day. It's silly to say it's not a good league, unless you're just criticizing Major Junior in general.
the dub seems to turn out great defenseman more than great forwards...
I guess my big problem with placing so much emphasis on the WJC is that it seems to get a disproportionate amount of importance placed on it. Yes it can be useful, but you also have to keep in mind that not every player develops the exact same way, and that most players don't develop in a steady, linear fashion from age 16-whatever
A charging penalty to Zack Kassian at the end of the first period resulted in an early power-play goal by Brampton to start the second period, giving them a 2-1 lead.
Fans voiced their displeasure over the call by booing referees Darcy Burchell and Sean McQuigge off the ice at the end of the first.
“I don’t agree with the call on Kassian which put us short-handed,” said Petes’ coach Ken McRae.
“That was a huge goal at the start of the second period to put us down right away after a pretty solid first period. That took a little bit of the life out of us for a while. We rebounded, but their power play had three goals again tonight. Five-on-five our effort is solid. We had one good power play where we hit a post and missed a couple of open nets. Maybe, that would have changed it.
“Their weapons came through for them in the clutch.”
Quote:
Evgeny Grachev scored the goal 28 seconds into the second, ripping a snapshot by Jason Missiaen. Matt Duchene, who had a goal and assist, added another 4:09 later giving Brampton the eventual winning goal.
Duchene said the goal sparked the Battalion.
“Our power play was awful during the regular season,” said Duchene, “but we changed a few things and we’re first in the league right now. It’s given us all the momentum in the series.”
Really, you can say the same thing about the WHL and certainly the QMJHL. Looking at the top scorers for the WHL by season, here are the guys that finished in the top 20 and eventually became NHL regulars:
2000: Jarret Stoll, Scottie Upshall, Marcel Hossa
2001: Joffrey Lupul
2002: Erik Christensen, Brooks Laich
2003: Eric Fehr, Brandon Dubinsky, Clarke MacArthur, Tomas Fleischmann, Ryan Getzlaf, Andrew Ladd, Nigel Dawes
2004: Gilbert Brule, Mike Green
2005: Devin Setoguchi, Blake Comeau
Other than 2003, the WHL hasn't exactly been churning out awesome NHL players of late. Compare to the OHL:
2000: Jason Spezza, Branko Radivojevic, Kyle Wellwood, Brad Boyes, Steve Ott, Stephen Weiss, Derek Roy, Mike Zigomanis
2001: Patrick O'Sullivan, Martin St. Pierre, Matt Stajan
2002: Eric Staal, Mike Richards, Dustin Brown, Corey Perry, Chad LaRose
2003: Daniel Paille
2004: Bobby Ryan, Jeff Carter, Wojtek Wolski,
2005: Dave Bolland, Bryan Little, Ryan Callahan
I'll take the offensive talent coming out of the OHL any day. It's silly to say it's not a good league, unless you're just criticizing Major Junior in general.
I am not criticizing anything.
Its nothing but reality.
There are 3 major junior leagues and around like 45 teams in Canada. In the US you have college hockey and a bunch of teams. Then you have Sweden, Finland, Slovakia, Russia, Czech Rep and a couple of other nations maybe that produce good hockeyplayers.
The best juniors in hockey are easily spread over 100 teams at diffrent levels, continents and countrys.
The OHL certainly have its fair share of talent on its 15 (or whatever) teams. But that fair share, probably only makes out of like 10% (very loosely app.) of the best kids in thoose age groups.
Thats pretty much a fact, while certainly the numbers are very loosly app. Thats what I ment with writing that the OHL isn't a very good league. With that I tryed to make 2 points;
-In the WJC's thoose best juniors, except the around 2-5 kids who already have made the NHL, is spread over 7 teams in principle. Its a good indication of the talent level on team Canada/Sweden/USA vs one of 14 OHL teams.
-Dominating the OHL can mean a certain number of things. Sometimes I feel like many posters feel that it would be remarkble if a player who was great in the OHL didn't become a franchiseplayer in the NHL. Some seems to feel like its a persumption that if you are great in the OHL, you must become great in the NHL.
Then there certainly are many very knowledgeble posters who looks at it from a good perspective and still thinks that Grachev will become a goto star on a 1st line in the NHL.
For example;
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan
I've said it before, I'll say it again: I honestly think we've got a budding star here, folks. Legit 1st line, multiple all star game LWer.
The mere fact that people are debating which current/past star he best compares to should be something of an indication of where he's going to wind up. As to the comparisons themselves, I've said for a while now that style-wise Rick Nash is the best analogy, although I think ultimately Grachev will wind up putting up better numbers (at least until Nash gets out of Columbus's system). As to AO and JJ, here's how I'd rate Evgeny (or rather his potential) vs. them:
-Stickhandling: JJ, AO, EG. (This is where Evgeny compares the least favorably, I would say - the others are in a different league, at least based on what I've seen to date.)
-Strength: JJ, AO, EG. (JJ in his prime was perhaps the strongest player on the puck I've ever seen.)
-Wrist shot: AO, EG, JJ. (This is what sets AO apart from the others, in terms of skills. EG's wrist shot is unbelievable, though - he may wind up close to him if he fulfills his potential.)
-Slap shot: JJ, AO, EG. (A direct result of Jagr's strength - when he got the leverage on that shot, it was something fearsome to see. Evgeny does play the point on the Brampton powerplay, so there's some significant upside there.)
-Speed: EG, AO, JJ. (I think Evgeny may already be faster than AO. Jagr was not a slowpoke when he came into the league, but he doesn't compare to the other two.)
-Passing: JJ, EG, AO. (JJ was a great playmaker, who I unnecessarily underrated due to the fact that he played with even better playmakers and I always viewed him as the finisher off of Lemieux's/Nylander's plays. Having said that, Grachev's passing is phenomenal and I think he may have more of a playmaker's instinct than the other two - some of the assists he's had in the second half of the season have been draw dropping.)
-Defensive Positioning: EG, AO, JJ. (There's a reason that Grachev stars on the Brampton penalty kill. And don't forget that one of the great kudos that Renney got was that he was actually able to get JJ interested in playing D.)
-Toughness/Physical Play: AO, JJ, EG. (I hope that EG develops half the "edge" that AO has. He shows plenty of grit in the 50/50 battles and in front of the net, but doesn't show much of an instinct for destroying guys when he has the opportunity - yet.)
-Drive: AO, JJ, EG. (This is what separates the "average" all star from the HOF great. AO has it in spades. JJ could go dormant for times, but when he was on, he could beat you one on five. We'll see if the kid can develop it.)
Before everyone flames away (and feel free to do so), bear in mind that a) I am already on record as projecting him as a legit star, b) this is all based on potential (although in terms of speed especially EG may already be where I have him ranked) and c) I don't believe in jinxes. It's a fun exercise and we should all hope that I'm even close to right.
Thats a awsome post that describes why one poster thinks Grachev will become a star.
There are 3 major junior leagues and around like 45 teams in Canada. In the US you have college hockey and a bunch of teams. Then you have Sweden, Finland, Slovakia, Russia, Czech Rep and a couple of other nations maybe that produce good hockeyplayers.
The best juniors in hockey are easily spread over 100 teams at diffrent levels, continents and countrys.
The OHL certainly have its fair share of talent on its 15 (or whatever) teams. But that fair share, probably only makes out of like 10% (very loosely app.) of the best kids in thoose age groups.
Thats pretty much a fact, while certainly the numbers are very loosly app. Thats what I ment with writing that the OHL isn't a very good league. With that I tryed to make 2 points;
-In the WJC's thoose best juniors, except the around 2-5 kids who already have made the NHL, is spread over 7 teams in principle. Its a good indication of the talent level on team Canada/Sweden/USA vs one of 14 OHL teams.
-Dominating the OHL can mean a certain number of things. Sometimes I feel like many posters feel that it would be remarkble if a player who was great in the OHL didn't become a franchiseplayer in the NHL. Some seems to feel like its a persumption that if you are great in the OHL, you must become great in the NHL.
The wasn't my point at all. Your original post made it sound as if you thought the OHL was a particularly weak league, and my point was that it is on par with (or arguably better than) the other two CHL leagues--the WHL and QMJHL. Nothing more, nothing less. It's not a weak league, it's a very good developmental league.
There are 3 major junior leagues and around like 45 teams in Canada. In the US you have college hockey and a bunch of teams. Then you have Sweden, Finland, Slovakia, Russia, Czech Rep and a couple of other nations maybe that produce good hockeyplayers.
The best juniors in hockey are easily spread over 100 teams at diffrent levels, continents and countrys.
The OHL certainly have its fair share of talent on its 15 (or whatever) teams. But that fair share, probably only makes out of like 10% (very loosely app.) of the best kids in thoose age groups.
Thats pretty much a fact, while certainly the numbers are very loosly app. Thats what I ment with writing that the OHL isn't a very good league. With that I tryed to make 2 points;
-In the WJC's thoose best juniors, except the around 2-5 kids who already have made the NHL, is spread over 7 teams in principle. Its a good indication of the talent level on team Canada/Sweden/USA vs one of 14 OHL teams.
-Dominating the OHL can mean a certain number of things. Sometimes I feel like many posters feel that it would be remarkble if a player who was great in the OHL didn't become a franchiseplayer in the NHL. Some seems to feel like its a persumption that if you are great in the OHL, you must become great in the NHL.
Then there certainly are many very knowledgeble posters who looks at it from a good perspective and still thinks that Grachev will become a goto star on a 1st line in the NHL.
For example;
Thats a awsome post that describes why one poster thinks Grachev will become a star.
Thanks! The best part is I believe it. Hopefully I'm right.
You have to be cautious with these things and the safe money is on Grachev becoming just another run of the mill big forward who will have good years and then have some off years.
Alll we can do is hope he continues to improve and can just help the club out in anyway he can.
It's a fun exercise and we should all hope that I'm even close to right.
